|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Apr 13, 2010 8:54:24 GMT -5
This was a question posed by Nikkol on another topic and I agree it needs its own topic so I started one.
Because we all have varied backgrounds teachings and understandings I am interested to see what responses we get.
Firstly I will say there is a difference between having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit ( which most people call being filled )
To that answer I will say no you cannot be saved and not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that is impossible.
But you CAN be saved and not have the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. That is entirely possible and scriptural as well.
GO !!!
|
|
teebee
Junior Member
Posts: 58
|
Post by teebee on Apr 13, 2010 18:22:34 GMT -5
Well, I already posted my opinion in the other thread ;D. I agree with you. I also brought up in the other thread about 3 separate Christian experiences according to the teaching of some: salvation, sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit. I'm sure all of us probably agree and can probably point to the date and time of our salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit experiences. Do any of you believe in a separate and distinct sanctification experience where you can say on this date/time I became sanctified?
I personally can't because I've viewed it more as a process of growth, development, and periods of time where I am probably MORE sanctified than other times. However, the sanctification EXPERIENCE was something that I believe USED TO BE taught in COGIC under Bishop Mason and in other Pentecostal denominations. I don't hear it much any more and I wonder if it's still embraced by a lot of Pentecostals/Holiness people or former folks from those denoms. I am no longer COGIC. What say you?
|
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Apr 15, 2010 7:36:25 GMT -5
Sanctification is a process not an event. When we are saved we are initially sancitified which means set apart. We are made the Lord's and we are set apart for him. From that point on the process of sanctification continues where we are purified and that continues until we leave this earth.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Apr 15, 2010 10:16:47 GMT -5
I don't see filling/baptism of the HS as two separate things....HOWEVER, I believe that once we receive the HS, we can (and should) be refilled.
For me, personally, I believed but my "salvation experienced" occurred when I received the filling/baptism of the HG (ie when God took control of my tongue and I spoke as He gave utterance) -- (Acts 19)
|
|
|
|
Post by kitty on Apr 15, 2010 11:35:35 GMT -5
Hey Giants,
Yes I agree that having the Holy Spirit and Baptism of the Holy Ghost are 2 different things...
I've seen people operate in power and not be filled with the Holy Ghost... It's one of the ways that many people are deceived. And the bible states that the very elect can be deceived...
Kitty
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Apr 15, 2010 11:52:15 GMT -5
Hey Giants, Yes I agree that having the Holy Spirit and Baptism of the Holy Ghost are 2 different things... I've seen people operate in power and not be filled with the Holy Ghost... It's one of the ways that many people are deceived. And the bible states that the very elect can be deceived... Kitty How do you define them? I ask moreso because I'm confused by your next sentence which seems to differentiate God annointing someone to do something from having the HG. (which I agree with for I don't believe that only a person who's saved can be anointed to do something for God) |
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Apr 15, 2010 19:11:15 GMT -5
Im gonna let this roll a minute before I go into a full blown comment...
But I find that many people call "having the Holy Ghost" and " the baptism of the Holy Ghost" is the same thing.
I will say that there is no such thing as a Christian that does not " have " The Holy Spirit. There is such a thing as a christian that does not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Some people believe that you arent really saved until you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is erroneous.
Some people believe that you do not have the Holy Ghost until you have the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is also erroneous....
continue..
|
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Apr 15, 2010 19:13:44 GMT -5
Hey Giants, Yes I agree that having the Holy Spirit and Baptism of the Holy Ghost are 2 different things... I've seen people operate in power and not be filled with the Holy Ghost... It's one of the ways that many people are deceived. And the bible states that the very elect can be deceived... Kitty Correction the bible DOES NOT say that the very elect can be deceived... The Scripture says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE even the very elect would be deceived. That means that it is NOT possible. |
|
teebee
Junior Member
Posts: 58
|
Post by teebee on Apr 17, 2010 19:52:19 GMT -5
Great replies. A few comments from me:
1. I don't see how one can be annointed by God and not be saved. I believe there has to be some kind of GENUINE connection there with God to be annointed. Perhaps the person is saved but they are a babe in Christ or there are certain areas of their lives where you don't see much fruit and so you think they're not saved and perhaps because of a need in someone else's life, the Lord chose to use the "babe" as a conduit to reach the person who needed it. Hence, the "babe" was annointed to do something. IDK. Just MHO. I'm sure that Giants can give some good insight into my theory.
2. It's interesting, NIkkol, that you count your salvation and baptism in the HG as the same experience. So, how would you describe yourself before the dual experience? Do you consider yourself as someone who was seeking/pondering but hadn't yet committed before you had your dual experience of salvation and baptism in the HG?
|
|
|
|
Post by anointedteacher on Apr 17, 2010 21:34:09 GMT -5
Great replies. A few comments from me: 1. I don't see how one can be annointed by God and not be saved. I believe there has to be some kind of GENUINE connection there with God to be annointed. Perhaps the person is saved but they are a babe in Christ or there are certain areas of their lives where you don't see much fruit and so you think they're not saved and perhaps because of a need in someone else's life, the Lord chose to use the "babe" as a conduit to reach the person who needed it. Hence, the "babe" was annointed to do something. IDK. Just MHO. I'm sure that Giants can give some good insight into my theory. I believe some ppl are born with gifts.... Many time I can look at a person doing something they are called to do. I will see a bright amber light outline their body... God will let me know that this is what they are called to do... Many of these ppl are not saved, but gifted in that area... it can be anything, like accounting, teaching, construction etc... It not always ministries, although I usually see the same amber light when one walking in their call. Jeremiah was a prophet from his mother's womb.... I believe their are different level of anointing.... If you think about it, there may have been things and abilities that you was anointed to do way before you got saved... In some Pentscostal and Holiness believe you have to speak in tongue to be saved... they usually terry in a service for the Holy Spirit. Some will say Jesus real fast still they speak in tongue. For one to work so hard to get saved by speaking in tongue, are saved the minute they set their heart to receive Christ and call upon His name, but they don't know that. They are taught they have to be more, they have to receive the Holy Ghost... Those who do not speak in tongue are not consider saved no matter how hard they try. We are baptized into Jesus Christ or into His Body by the Holy Spirit... Rom. 6:3-4; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27 We are Baptized in Water by a Minister Mat. 3:6,13-16; Act 1:5; 10:47; 11:16 We are Baptized into the Holy Spirit by Jesus Mat. 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16; John 1:21-33; Act 1:5;11:16 You receive the Holy Spirit when you get saved, but you are not baptized (immerged) and filled with the Holy Spirit, that come after salvation and water baptism should be after salvation too. Some believe water baptism saved you, but it don't... |
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Apr 18, 2010 9:12:58 GMT -5
I think we need to clarify what Kitty is talking about. People CAN operate in power and not have the Holy Spirit.
They can operate in THEIR OWN power
They can operate in SOULISH power
They can operate in DEMONIC power
Just because its power dont means its GOD's power...
And because many people do NOT have the baptism of the Holy Spirit they dont have the ability to discern what power is in operation.
Continue...
PS I like what AT said..
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Apr 19, 2010 7:27:34 GMT -5
Great replies. A few comments from me: 2. It's interesting, NIkkol, that you count your salvation and baptism in the HG as the same experience. So, how would you describe yourself before the dual experience? Do you consider yourself as someone who was seeking/pondering but hadn't yet committed before you had your dual experience of salvation and baptism in the HG? I think that Acts 19 described how I was. I "believed" but wasn't really trying to give up anything. I still remember people asking me if I asked God for the baptism of the HG. At that time, I didn't really see it as important so it was never part of my prayer life.... so I was somewhat like the ppl when the question was asked "Have you received the HG since you believed?" (only difference was that I had heard about it but I don't think I really understaood how important it was in the Christian life...until one day, there was a church service where they said to come expecting your miracle/blessing at Deliverance (in Philly) and R.W. Shambach was there. It was at that time that I really wanted God to fill me and I wanted to follow him. That next morning I was filled and spoke in tongues as the spirit gave utterance. As I was still "feasting" on the word/service" from the night before, I was filled (Acts 10:44-46). Now that was my personal experience. And I would also add that a person can receive the gift of the HG before baptism... Now as Pat discussed, there are different ways that ppl receive it. I've learned that in "black church circles" calling on Jesus is what has taken many to the place to receive it. I think the reason for this is that we know if we call on Jesus he'll answer and many times, unfortunately, it takes some ppl longer to get in his presence. I know that as we've had people call on Jesus and even if they didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we told them to enjoy the process....I still can remember the great experience I had that night before I received it. The key is, don't make people feel badly about it but rejoice that they were in His presence (which isn't something that the majority of ppl are striving towards - MT 7:13-14). I have seen some receive it with the laying on of hands. Some received it as they praised God....Now I DON'T believe in making ppl say "la la la da da da, etc" until they get tongue-tied.... Lastly, I think that it's fair to say that just because you (general) haven't heard someone speak in tongues doesn't mean that they don't have the HG....at the same time,we know that the way the apostles knew that someone had the HG was because they spoke in tongues (acts 10, acts 19). It's known as the initial physical evidence. |
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Apr 19, 2010 8:48:04 GMT -5
Every single Christian has the Holy Spirit. You dont GET the Holy Spirit when you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. You receive the Holy Spirit when you accept ad acknowledge jesus as your Lord and Savior..
In John 20 before Jesus ascended he breathed on the disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. Then he told them to WAIT until they receiver Power... When he breathed on them that was their conversion. Remember that before the cross man was dead in his sin and trespass to God. When Jesus breathed on them it was exactly the same as when the Father breathed life into Adam to make him a LIVING soul.
You cannot be saved and not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
You can be saved and not have the baptism. In Acts 19 Paul found a group of believer who were saved because they were believers yet they had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit without water baptism. This is evidenced in Acts 10. There were people who were converted while the Gospel was being preached and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water.
I was saved 2 months before I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and I received the baptism in my home. I went to a service and saw a man preaching on the Holy Spirit and I had been reading Benny Hinn book Welcome Holy Spirit. I realized that I really didnt know the Holy Spirit... I prayed Father I know who you are.. Jesus I know who you are. Holy Spirit I really dont know who you are would you please introduce yourself to me...
WHAM I spoke in tongues non stop for about an hour... In fact I couldnt speak english at all
I was baptized in water SEVEN YEARS LATER...
Now I have to say this.. Everytime in scripture after the ressurection when someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit they either spoke in tongues or they prophesied...
Acts 2 tongues, Acts 10 tongues, Acts 19 tongues and prophesy.
The Word of GOD says by two or three witnessed a thing is established. The Word of God itself shows that there must be a demonstration of power if that person has RECEIVED power.
So one cannot be baptized in the Holy Spirit and NOT speak in tongues or prophesy.
Also one cannot be saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit...
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Apr 19, 2010 11:35:31 GMT -5
Scripture for context:
Acts 19: 1-7
1 And it came to pass , that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them , Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him , We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said , Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is , on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied . 7 And all the men were about twelve.
GDD: So your interpretation of this text would be that they were already filled with the HG and when Paul laid hands on them they received the baptism of the HG?
|
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on Apr 21, 2010 2:07:26 GMT -5
I think it's interesting that a dichotomy between having the Holy Spirit and being baptized in/filled with the Holy Spirit only exists in certain versions of Pentecostal theology. Just about all other Christian traditions consider the experience to be one and the same. Just food for thought.
|
|
