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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 5:14:15 GMT -5
And Such, What exactly is it that you think Obama is missing? And you may be fighting the issue that cause abortion in a daily basis... but I think it would be easy to say that the majority of Christians aren't doing anything that stopp the issues that CAUSE abortions to occur other than wanting to grand stand at voting time. Also what is it that Obama isn't getting? Kitty, you make such statements a lot, but I have to ask with all sincerety... Do you know "most" Chirstians? Have you done a study on what "most" Christians do concerning abortion? Have you witnessed with your own eyes that "most" Christians don't do anything, or wait until election time to take a stand? Election time happens to be a critical time but it doesn't necessarily mean it is the only time that people speak up. You didn't know that I am involved with such on a daily basis yet you make such statements. Obama could very well be the next president. Who knows? Only God knows that - and if he does become president, I will continue to stand against such issues that the bible also stand against. And I will be for those things that the bible is for. You speak as if it is a bad thing to be against abortion. Whether it changes or not (because you seem to state a lot that it will not change) doesn't change the fact that when I stand before the Lord, I will be accountable for what I as an individual have done and not what "most" Christians have or have not done. |
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Post by vindicated on Apr 18, 2008 9:57:37 GMT -5
Historically Christians vote on morals. So because of that I say Obama said nothing wrong. He just told it like it is. The word "most" does not mean "all". It doesn't mean nobody is doing anything, it just means most people aren't actively fighting these issues on an ongoing regular basis.
The votes speak louder than anything else. That's why there's so much drama surrounding the vote because politicians know that the ONE group of people that can turn an election upside down is the Black vote. The other group that can turn an election upside down is the Christian vote. They know this but we don't.
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Post by kitty on Apr 18, 2008 10:02:17 GMT -5
And Such,
The years that I worked in the education system have allowed me to see alot. And for the record... There is alot that goes on before a woman gets to the point of making the decision to have an abortion. There are the lies being told to her about what it takes to attract a man, going on from the way she dresses to not telling a man that she won't have sex before marriage ( Oh and yes... I know of a lot of grown Christian women that do that...)
To the fact that many Christians will shun a unmarried Christian girl/woman but nobody does it to the male... when was the last time you heard of the guy being told to get up in front of the congregagtion and repent for getting someone pregnant?
In my own family one of my cousins got pregnant in her 30's and HER PASTOR asked her to leave the church because her being pregnant would be hurtful to the man's EX-WIFE! Mind you she had been dating the man off and on for 6-7 years already and was engaged to him! We won't even talk about the fact that she apparent thought it would be ok to have sex withhim because she thought they we getting married. Then this grown man... stable... asked her to get an abortion... broke off the relationship and MOVED outta state. Clearly wasn't going to her SUPPORT for her church!
Then there are the grand standing craziness that goes on at the abortion clinics... Getting out in front of a clinic and showing anger, yelling and screaming, telling some young girl that she going to hell is quite the way to stop her from having an abortion or leading her to Jesus...
And Such... I could go on and on...
But the bottom line is this... as a Christian I don't not believe that God wants people to have abortions. But I don't believe that EVERYONE that has an abortion is automatically going to hell either...ie 12-13 years raped and incest... But clearly that is my opinion.
And lastly to bring this back to the topic at hand. For years many people have placed their votes for president on 2 issues... abortion and gay marriage. But what has it accomplished in either case? It hasn't stopped people for being gay, gays got closer than ever before in gay marriage UNDER THIS SUPPOSEDLY CHRISTIAN PRESIDENT!
Abortion wasn't made illegal... not sure I want to see it go back to back alley ways... and this is something that has been going for decades...
I'm just at the point of believing that there are certain areas of morality that the government can't stop. They can't stop people for having sex out of marriage, can't stop people from being gay... Plus I believe if WE want to serve God then we should fine ways to be effective...
Shouldn't we as Christians look for ways to solve problems that really SOLVE the problem...
Now if you feel lead not to vote for a particular person by God then by all means be obedient. But I'm tired of the suggestions that have been floating around that Jesus is republican...
Any vote is seeking to choose the lesser evil...
For me that is being not being given a living wage, poor people that aren't allowed to vote because they don't have an official address, the elderly who are having their pensions stolen and riped off, insurance companies that don't want to pay for treatments, yet want to take half of a doctors earnings, less money being placed in education, the new bankruptcy laws, and my list goes on and on...
But maybe for you... it stops at abortion and gays. If so that's ok. But I'm no less Christian if I decide to vote on the other issues.
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Post by kitty on Apr 18, 2008 10:10:14 GMT -5
by the way... what is it thatyou think Obama isn't getting?
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 10:16:58 GMT -5
And Such, The years that I worked in the education system have allowed me to see alot. And for the record... There is alot that goes on before a woman gets to the point of making the decision to have an abortion. There are the lies being told to her about what it takes to attract a man, going on from the way she dresses to not telling a man that she won't have sex before marriage ( Oh and yes... I know of a lot of grown Christian women that do that...) To the fact that many Christians will shun a unmarried Christian girl/woman but nobody does it to the male... when was the last time you heard of the guy being told to get up in front of the congregagtion and repent for getting someone pregnant? In my own family one of my cousins got pregnant in her 30's and HER PASTOR asked her to leave the church because her being pregnant would be hurtful to the man's EX-WIFE! Mind you she had been dating the man off and on for 6-7 years already and was engaged to him! We won't even talk about the fact that she apparent thought it would be ok to have sex withhim because she thought they we getting married. Then this grown man... stable... asked her to get an abortion... broke off the relationship and MOVED outta state. Clearly wasn't going to her SUPPORT for her church! Then there are the grand standing craziness that goes on at the abortion clinics... Getting out in front of a clinic and showing anger, yelling and screaming, telling some young girl that she going to hell is quite the way to stop her from having an abortion or leading her to Jesus... And Such... I could go on and on... But the bottom line is this... as a Christian I don't not believe that God wants people to have abortions. But I don't believe that EVERYONE that has an abortion is automatically going to hell either...ie 12-13 years raped and incest... But clearly that is my opinion. I don't believe that anyone said that all who have had abortions are going to hell. I don't believe that was even implied. And again, I cannot say what is going on in all or most churches because I have not been there myself to witness such. Again, I am not going to go against what the bible says simply because some have chosen to remain in the lifestyle that they are living or because some choose to have an abortion. And whose to say that WE are not doing so. One way to be effective is to NOT SUPPORT gay marriages and abortion. We have to start at home first and that is what I am doing as well as others. I am sure that I am not the only one taking a stand on these issues (as well as other issues). Republican or Democrat --- what does the Word of God say about the issues? Which is why I say that I will allow the Spirit to lead me who to vote for (or not vote at all) And all are valid issues, so what are you doing about them to take your stand on the matter as an individual - for it starts there first. Okay sis. There you go and it MUST stop. Please quote the post, date and time where I even implied that my stand on things stops at "abortion and gays". I really feel that you must justify what you said and if not I really would like for you to rephrase what you said please.  Also, please quote post, date and time in which I said that you are less of a Christian if you decide to vote on "the other issues". Again, I am sincere in my questions/requests and again if it is not found - please justify what you are saying. |
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Post by kitty on Apr 18, 2008 10:38:17 GMT -5
And Such,
I'm not stating that your issues stop at abortion and gays... But the botton line is that you have implied that you won't vote for any president that isn't actively going after these two issues...
I agree that we must go with what the bible states... But if that is the case then none of us will ever vote because none of these presidents... Past or Present has ever lived up to the bible. So if that is hOW YOU are really choosing how you vote then you would have stopped voting a long time ago...
And again I stand by this statement... any of us that are Christian are voting for what we believe is the lesser of two evils... If Obama doesn't have you vote is because he isn't against again the evil that most concerns you...
Again And Such... if that is your position I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
But I'm done with the idea that a president... is going to stop people for being gay... or people from having sex out of marriage and seeking an abortion... legally or illegally. So if those aren't the issue that stop you from supporting Obama.... then what else is there?
Kitty
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Post by stillfocused on Apr 18, 2008 11:25:26 GMT -5
One Saturday I was driving the street and saw a man standing on the sidewalk in front the mall I live near with an abortion sign..sick of what I was seeing and hearing I pulled my car over with my Gospel music blaring and confronted this man..when asked would he house, feed, clothe, babysit, provide food, and the other esentials for a teenage mother who wanted to have an abortion. Yes, the pregnancy offer counseling..my thing is this..don't tell me abortion is wrong and I am going to hell for having one..if you're not prepared with a solution for the next 18 yrs..if you're thinking of voting for McCain because you believe he against abortion and etc..you'd better think again..this state has one of the highest teen pregnancy and unemployment rates, add domestic violence, murder, and etc to the cities and you get my picture. I have been told that all the candidates have something in place that they will sign as it relates to gay marriages...and a reknown gospel singer and Pastor has said no to vote any of them..what are you to do ?
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 12:25:31 GMT -5
And Such, I'm not stating that your issues stop at abortion and gays... But the botton line is that you have implied that you won't vote for any president that isn't actively going after these two issues... Again, show me post, date and time where I said such a thing. I said that I will not vote for one that is FOR these issues. And for the record - I did not say "gays" but either the gay agenda or gay marriage. Why is is that you seem to miss that I said that I am praying and will allow the Spirit to lead me? And why do you often misquote me or put words in my mouth? There are many OTHER reasons why I say that I wouldn't vote for Obama if it was up to me. I know that there is nothing wrong with it. I am very comfortable with my convictions. I don't believe I ever said that a president has to stop people from being gay, having abortions etc. Believe it or not, I do believe that the individuals themselves can choose to not do something. But again, that isn't the issue here. Please tell me why I SHOULD support Obama. And please do not tell me because he is black. |
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 12:31:56 GMT -5
One Saturday I was driving the street and saw a man standing on the sidewalk in front the mall I live near with an abortion sign..sick of what I was seeing and hearing I pulled my car over with my Gospel music blaring and confronted this man..when asked would he house, feed, clothe, babysit, provide food, and the other esentials for a teenage mother who wanted to have an abortion. Yes, the pregnancy offer counseling..my thing is this..don't tell me abortion is wrong and I am going to hell for having one..if you're not prepared with a solution for the next 18 yrs..if you're thinking of voting for McCain because you believe he against abortion and etc..you'd better think again..this state has one of the highest teen pregnancy and unemployment rates, add domestic violence, murder, and etc to the cities and you get my picture. I have been told that all the candidates have something in place that they will sign as it relates to gay marriages...and a reknown gospel singer and Pastor has said no to vote any of them..what are you to do ? Wow! My stand on abortion and gay marriage or any other issue is solely based on my belief in the Word of God. I believe that if a teen becomes pregnant then it is also her responsibility to take care of the child the best way that she knows how ...up to and including placing the child up for adoption. Abortion is not a form of birth control. I believe the teen (under normal situations, I am not talking rape, incest etc. - though I still don't believe that an abortion should be sought under those circumstances either) if she decided to have sex, then she is also saying that I am willing to accept the consequences of my actions. I don't believe anyone stated that they would vote for McCain because of the belief that he is against abortion - I actually haven't said who I am voting for because as it stands right now - I don't know. All of the candidates have issues that I may and/or may not agree with. |
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Post by kitty on Apr 18, 2008 12:41:43 GMT -5
And Such,
I don't mean to imply or put words or phrases in your mouth. Nor do i want this post to be about us going back and forth.
If you don't want to support Obama then that is fine. But if gay marriage or abortion aren't the only issue that would prevent you from voting for him then please state what those other issues are if you feel comfortable. You are making the statement that Obama is "missing it" and I have asked you for about 3 posts straight what is it that he seems to be missing?
So far you haven't answered that question... not that you have too... But I only know of 2 reasons so far that would possible prevent you from voting for him. I'm not here to give YOU reason why you should vote for him. I'm just stating the reason why I am voting for him.
And I have yet to hear any of the canadiates state that they are FOR abortion or gay marriage... Their focus isn't into on it... And like I said before... gays have gotten the futher with gay marriage under Bush than with any other president.... So if people were voting for him with that in mind it turned out to be a wasted vote.
Kitty
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 14:05:48 GMT -5
Actually sis, I thought you and I were having a pretty good discussion - I didn't look at it as if you and I are going back and forth - we just happen to be the only two "talking" at the moment.
No comment about Bush........lol
Abortion and the Gay Agenda are deal breakers for me, yes however, I listen to the other issues at hand as well (which is why I try to catch the debates because that is the only way that I can hear from the candidates themselves).
Another thing is that I am not totally against this war (though that is another thread for another time).
Honestly, I have yet to see why I should vote for ANY of the candidates. Normally what I do is go to each website (to see what they really believe on ALL issues) once it is down to the "finals", listen to the debates, pray and then cast my decision. I just doubt I will be led to vote for Obama because I haven't found reason TO vote for him.
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Post by stillfocused on Apr 18, 2008 14:13:06 GMT -5
We all know that abortion is wrong..but, as one who was a teen mother..you are not ready for that responsibility especially when you have to face it alone..by choice or because he refuses to step up..even though he's in the child's life. And to be honest for many adoption is not the choice..many don't understand the guilt associated with getting pregnant before one is married. Many things change the course of one's life..I have been instructed to pray and that I will do.
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 14:15:40 GMT -5
We all know that abortion is wrong..but, as one who was a teen mother..you are not ready for that responsibility especially when you have to face it alone..by choice or because he refuses to step up..even though he's in the child's life. And to be honest for many adoption is not the choice..many don't understand the guilt associated with getting pregnant before one is married. Many things change the course of one's life..I have been instructed to pray and that I will do. Which is why I believe that parents should be the primary educators when it comes to Sex Ed. But again another post for another thread. |
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Post by stillfocused on Apr 18, 2008 15:16:13 GMT -5
See my parents were not talking...and if you have children and you think you're going to be ready to address the topic when it comes up !! Think again..I was ready until my son asked me a question that blew me out of the water : 0. I quickly grabbed my car keys went to
Borders !!
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 18, 2008 17:26:52 GMT -5
See my parents were not talking...and if you have children and you think you're going to be ready to address the topic when it comes up !! Think again..I was ready until my son asked me a question that blew me out of the water : 0. I quickly grabbed my car keys went to Borders !! I wasn't necessarily speaking about your parents. I was talking in general. Actually, I am already planning a "Parent Awareness" Seminar in October. The seminar/workshop is going to teach parents how to become "askable parents." It will teach them what they should know about their children when they reach certain ages. Their youth are also invited and therefore we will have role-plays etc. There will also be a session for the youth that will teach them that they should feel comfortable enough to go to their parents about any and all sexual questions and issues. The name of it is "Can We Talk?" |
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