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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on May 13, 2008 19:29:11 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 9:11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? [NKJV]
I was listening to a teaching tonight in which the "speaker" stated that the bible says if a person sows into someone spiritually then she should reap financially from the one receiving the teaching. Her assistant used the scripture above to support that.
What say ye? Does one automatically have to sow financially into someone who delivered the Word? Now I know that further down it says that those who preach the Gospel should live from the Gospel. So does that mean that is the scripture one should use to get someone to give financially?
I am just asking. The only reason it bothered me so much tonight was because when she asked the "room' for an offering she said that she wasn't going to beg and she wanted us to be led of the Lord and will leave it at that. But then she goes into 15 minutes of why we need to give. It just really grieved me.
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Post by anointed on May 13, 2008 20:15:17 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 9 (AMP)
11If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?
12If others share in this rightful claim upon you, do not we [have a still better and greater claim]? However, we have never exercised this right, but we endure everything rather than put a hindrance in the way [of the spread] of the good news (the Gospel) of Christ.
13Do you not know that those men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]?(B)
14[On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel.
15But I have not made use of any of these privileges, nor am I writing this [to suggest] that any such provision be made for me [now]. For it would be better for me to die than to have anyone make void and deprive me of my [ground for] glorifying [in this matter].
16For if I [merely] preach the Gospel, that gives me no reason to boast, for I feel compelled of necessity to do it. Woe is me if I do not preach the glad tidings (the Gospel)!
17For if I do this work of my own free will, then I have my pay (my reward); but if it is not of my own will, but is done reluctantly and under compulsion, I am [still] entrusted with a [sacred] trusteeship and commission.
18What then is the [actual] reward that I get? Just this: that in my preaching the good news (the Gospel), I may offer it [absolutely] free of expense [to anybody], not taking advantage of my rights and privileges [as a preacher] of the Gospel.
19For although I am free in every way from anyone's control, I have made myself a bond servant to everyone, so that I might gain the more [for Christ].[/u][/b]
I love reading this ENTIRE portion from I Cor. 9. But you don't hear many preachers talk about not taking advantage of rights and privileges[/u] to "gain the more for Christ" and not "put a hindrance in the way in the spread of the Gospel." But you will probably not hear too many quote this portion from Paul. But I do believe there are pastors out here with the true apostle's spirit.
I honestly don't think there's a problem with giving money to a minister esp. if I see he or she is truly laboring in the work of the Lord (and it is scriptural to personally support such a one), however, I believe people get turned off when money is constantly emphasized and extorted through subtle tactics/misuse of scripture moreso than focusing on the actual heart of Christian service.
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on May 14, 2008 1:27:29 GMT -5
I agree. It is your last paragraph that was going on during that time and why I was so grieved. You cannot say, "allow the Lord to lead you" and then spend 15 minutes manipulating. That is a huge no no to me. I am a giver, and will not hesitate to give even when asked. But when you begin to mishandle scripture to lay a guilt trip, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm NOPE!
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Post by anointed on May 14, 2008 8:06:03 GMT -5
Yes, asking for an offering should never leave a guilt trip.
I'm still waiting for the day to hear I Cor. 9:12, 15-19 preached on a national platform.
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on May 14, 2008 9:01:35 GMT -5
Yes, asking for an offering should never leave a guilt trip. I'm still waiting for the day to hear I Cor. 9:12, 15-19 preached on a national platform. don't hold your breath...lol actually, i think I will preach it and send you the CD  LOL |
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Post by anointedteacher on May 14, 2008 9:48:32 GMT -5
15 minutes isn't alot of time, it is usually 45 to an hour  I do understand why many spend time teaching, because ppl in general Do Not give, throwing $1 or $2 in the offering is not good unless that is all you can afford. We had a speaker come in from NC... he is not rich or a profit prophet. We had to reimbruse him for his airfare, we paid for the hotel and meals for each day. We wanted to send him home with at lease $1000 for a three days revival. We had the revival in someone else church and they was kind enough to let us use the church without fee. About 60 ppl kind out on the first day and he didn't push the offering, just asked ppl to come with their best, they drop a dollar in the bucket, one person gave $100.00, another 50.00 and a couple 20 to 25 dollars. only about $200.00 or less came in with 60 ppl. The next night he did the offering a little different he asked for an hundred or as close as you can give. He explained he a single parent with two daugthers one in college and the other who will soon be going to college. He made it clear, God didn't say 100 dollar, but this is what I am asking for those who can give. $600+ came in and the last day $700+ we were able to paid for his airfare and give him about $775.00 which is 50% of the offering. Those ppl who drop a dollar in the offering, was able to give an $100 the next day and the last day of the revival. It seen like the preacher have to spend time teaching about giving, cause ppl won't do it on their own.... all the money did not go to the speaker, about 50% of the offering went toward meeting the expense of that ministry. I don't think that the preacher was manipulating, but teaching the ppl. Many don't think the preacher should be paid... They usually have to pull for a certain amount to come in to meet their budget... If the don't ask, they will not receive and be in a hole... Yes... we suppose to preach regardless.... But in these days in time, it take money to travel and preach... we don't travel by foot, horse, ass and campel anymore. Apostle Paul didn't have mortgage/rent, car payment, car, health & life insurance, ministry insurance, property tax, home phone, cell phone, internet, food, clothing, light and water bill. It not easy being called into a full-time ministry were you income consist of offering (not tithes if you are not a pastor of a church)... The Bible say you have not, because you asked not, money is not going to just drop in, they have to work at it.... There are too many profit(prophet) scam out there, that will pull till they clean out your purse and bank account and than run... Not all are like that.... many are living out of their suitcase.... |
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Post by livinganewlife on May 14, 2008 10:04:09 GMT -5
. The Bible say you have not, because you asked not, money is not going to just drop in, they have to work at it.... If you have all those bills (Internet, mortgage, cell phone, etc...) than you need a JOB!My husband is in the ministry full time and work a full time job and retired from the military....You know why he works a job it is because he has a wife and a family that he needs to support and as a man of God that means get up and go to work in addition to pastoring a church... |
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Post by anointedteacher on May 14, 2008 10:48:25 GMT -5
. The Bible say you have not, because you asked not, money is not going to just drop in, they have to work at it.... If you have all those bills (Internet, mortgage, cell phone, etc...) than you need a JOB! ;D ;D ;D That is their JOB... ;D ;D ;D God twice came close to taking my former pastor out... for look for a job... She came close to death... I remember when she was looking and calling companies to get a interview... and the next thing I know she was rushed into ER.... almost die.... than she try again.... and she got so sick that she could hold up her head... It affected her brain to the point she could remember most of the scriptures in the Bible, she had to start all over and could preach for a while. God took my apostle off her job and told her not to go back... The lord have been dealing with her concerning her job, but lived on the campus where she worked, a beautiful house with brand new furnitures, a new car... she was making very good money with excellence benefit.... God say leave, but she delay, so when she returned to work after a revival, there was a pink slip on her desk.... The lord had her to give up everything and live out of her suitcase. She gave away all her furnitures, and car... and travel state to state, city to city, till the Lord settle her down in Miami, and called her to pastor, till God anointed her as an apostle. Now she travel internationally, she have ministries in Africa, India, Japan, South America, Holland, Gambia, and the Islands.... You can not work an secular job and travel to all these places. You don't receive offering, reimbrusement for airfare, hotel and food, in many of these countries... You go as a missionary to preach the Good News and give out.... The money is raise here in the US and they work you and pull on you because the ppl are hurry for the Word of God. |
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Post by anointed on May 14, 2008 12:04:23 GMT -5
ATT,
Many pastors, if not most, receive some type of salary from their church because while it is full-time ministry, it's also work. That's understandable. But there are also pastors who don't take a salary but accept "love offerings" however they still have degrees to use for work outside the church. I believe in my heart that if a true pastor knows his congregation is full of working citizens trying to make it with their families, he wouldn't expect them to take care of him but he will take care of himself and his household.
Paul might not have had all the bills that we have today, but he also didn't live in expensive homes in gated communities with a Lexus or Bentley either. I say if you got it, flaunt it and if you don't, you better not expect your congregation to pay for such extravagence. (Just live simple like most people do).
Now I do agree that there are many who don't give offerings as they should but also there are churches where it is all about money money money! On top of paying the pastor's salary, there's the pastor's anniversary and wife appreciation and pastor's birthday and the one of the main emphasis is money. Now again, if a congregation loves their pastor because he does the work of the Lord the best he can, then they will have no problem blessing him. But when it's always about begging for money, then I have a problem. Not to be racial, but if you go out to a suburban white church, you will not see this taking place. What's really going on? All things have to be balance. And again, I'm waiting for pastors to preach in context what Paul was really saying in I Cor. 9 in its entirety (not just the part that supports their aim).
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on May 14, 2008 12:12:46 GMT -5
15 minutes isn't alot of time, it is usually 45 to an hour I do understand why many spend time teaching, because ppl in general Do Not give, throwing $1 or $2 in the offering is not good unless that is all you can afford. She contradicted herself by saying to us to allow the Lord to lead us then spend the next 15 minutes manipulating the scripture and trying to make people feel guilty. |
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Post by Nikkol on May 14, 2008 12:12:52 GMT -5
Hi everyone!!!!
What my church does is that we don't bring in anyone that we can't afford. So if we bring in someone from out of town, we'll make sure we pay for all of his lodging as well as the "offering" that he will receive ahead of time. Since we don't take offerings during our service (ppl give money b4 or after in a box) we never have to worry about not paying someone or not giving them enough because we will only bring in ppl that we know we can afford whether ppl choose to give or not.
If you have to "bribe" or tell ppl to give a certain amount, some of their motives may not be pure and God loves a CHEERFUL giver.
At the end of the day, the individual is held responsible for what they are to give. Now I know that personally, there are "quotas" of how much one is to give, etc (which is why you may notice that the shouting music and the "hoop" may occur right b4 offering) and it is easier to count money if you know that certain ppl have certain amounts...
But I don't think that a church should count on their ability to bring in a certain amount to "pay" for a preacher because that can cause unnecessary stress.
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Post by Jasmine on May 14, 2008 12:13:36 GMT -5
. The Bible say you have not, because you asked not, money is not going to just drop in, they have to work at it.... If you have all those bills (Internet, mortgage, cell phone, etc...) than you need a JOB!My husband is in the ministry full time and work a full time job and retired from the military....You know why he works a job it is because he has a wife and a family that he needs to support and as a man of God that means get up and go to work in addition to pastoring a church... I understand what you are saying here with your statement, however I also believe that this is not the case for every pastor. God does take people off of a full time job, to work in full time ministry. And to me, praise Jesus, thats a blessing. Because to work 40-80 hours a week, and still balance Pastoring 24/7, counseling session, bible study, traveling, various speaking engagements, conference obligations, is alot to carry on one's plate. As they say, You never get tired doing the work of the Lord. I truly believe that if a pastor is going to be in the office from 8 am-5pm. Mon-fri, or whatever days and hours are designated, then the church should place him on a salary, because technically...He's at work. My pastor is at our church from 6 AM, and he is the LAST one to go home. Our church is open everday till about 9 PM. I am not exaggerating either, I am serious. We have something going on at our church everyday, and he is there. Here is the kicker.. He's not on a salary. And the church has offered, because he is rightfully deserving of one, he doesn't want it. He's blessed. People send checks in the mail, with messages like.."this goes into the hand of the pastor", "this is for the pastor", "included is a check for the pastor, and for the church", People have come to our church, from all parts of the world, "The Lord told me to bless YOU first, then sow into your church". He doesn't solicite money from people, He don't send out letters saying, bless me and my ministry. He doesn't even travel around the world to speak at conferences, and he is not financially deficient. and to me, to see that with my own eyes, the favor of God upon him to never have to clock in on any job, because as long as he's doing what God told him to do, God will take care of him. My pastor is a giver.. What pastor you know, will sow $1,000 dollars of his own money, into 8 churches in his district, then bless his own bishop with $2,000 dollars. Now my pastor is a concrete stamper, does odd jobs, here and there like concreting a back yard, or a drive way.. but its not even comparable to the blessings of God. He's at the church all the time, I don't even see how he has time to concrete anything for anybody, especially when our own church is in the construction process. |
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Post by anointed on May 14, 2008 12:18:03 GMT -5
Nikkol and Jasmine, thanks for your posts. It's all about balance and wisdom.
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on May 14, 2008 12:21:31 GMT -5
Also,
the difference with this lady is that it was a paltalk chat room. she wasn't a visiting speaker at a church, nor is she a pastor of a church. it was in a paltalk chat room. not that it negates the fact that she brought forth the Word of God (for truly it was a good Word). however, when you ask someone to support your ministry and then say you want God to lead them - don't then say, "you same people that were typing 'amen', and 'PUSH' should be the same people that are giving, since i know you are going to apply the word. the bible says that if you are blessed spiritually then you are to give financially." Sorry, that is not going to cut it with me.
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Post by anointedteacher on May 14, 2008 13:32:36 GMT -5
15 minutes isn't alot of time, it is usually 45 to an hour I do understand why many spend time teaching, because ppl in general Do Not give, throwing $1 or $2 in the offering is not good unless that is all you can afford. She contradicted herself by saying to us to allow the Lord to lead us then spend the next 15 minutes manipulating the scripture and trying to make people feel guilty. I can't judge it, unless I was there... when you there you can see what spirit is in operation... |
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LOL
I do understand why many spend time teaching, because ppl in general Do Not give, throwing $1 or $2 in the offering is not good unless that is all you can afford.