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Post by keita on Jun 7, 2008 2:52:57 GMT -5
(Sis AT, I edited your post to fix the (my) quotes.)You've made some really interesting points. I'll be back to reply. 
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Post by kitty on Jun 7, 2008 9:32:37 GMT -5
Hey AT,
I grew up in Chicago where both Farrkhan and father Pflgean as located...
I notice that you have shared that you have some concern about the fact that father "Pfleg" invited Minister Farrkhan to come and speak at St. Sabina...
You have declared that this would be enough for the Holy Ghost to leave that church... But the truth is that maybe the Holy ghost met Minister farrkhan there in love...
In fact... I would bet my life that's what occured because the day that he chose to visit St. Sabina had a lot of importance...
AT.... You see... Farrkhan chose to speak at St. Sabina the very next day after he officially stepped down as the leader of the Nation of Islam. At St. Sabina his message was about unity of all people that believe in God. So you see... That was actually a big step for him... He just may be having a "Paul moment".
You see Farrkhan has been very ill for many years now... Although he looks like a picture perfect vision of health... I know he either had a rare disease or some form of cancer. he has been speaking out against jewish people for quite some time... But it's no secret that jewish doctors as some of the best... And really they are... ( I attended a jewish medical school...) and so when it came to saving his own life it appears that Farrkhan had to go to them for help.
Ever since that point he has been very quiet. The be quite honest... people haven't heard a peep out of him for about the last 10 years... he may speak out on political issues... But in the religion front and on Jews in particular he has been quiet as a mouse.
So... Father "P" was offering a hand in helping Farrkhan to turn over a new leaf as Jesus would have us all to do...
Just thought filling in some of the blanks would help you to understand why he allowed Farrkhan to speak at St. Sabina.
Kitty
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Post by anointedteacher on Jun 7, 2008 12:44:43 GMT -5
(Sis AT, I edited your post to fix the (my) quotes.)You've made some really interesting points. I'll be back to reply. You could at least fix my spelling and grammar  There nothing wrong with helping a sister out when she type while soaking in the Spirit with Bro Todd... ,drunk in the Spirit, like those on his vidoes, just plain old tried and sleepy... or thinking faster than typing  or just a bad lazy writer ;D.... look forward to your post and be easy on me....  |
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Post by anointedteacher on Jun 7, 2008 13:14:21 GMT -5
Hey AT,
I grew up in Chicago where both Farrkhan and father Pflgean as located...
I notice that you have shared that you have some concern about the fact that father "Pfleg" invited Minister Farrkhan to come and speak at St. Sabina... |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 7, 2008 16:23:18 GMT -5
What we see in all of this is that mainstream America has absolutely no idea what it's like to be Black in America, and now that it's being shown and told what this unequal system has produced for hundreds of years, it can't take it.
While I don't think that Hillary feels entitled to the presidency because she's White, I DO feel that she feels (or felt, at this point) entitled. But what I can't understand for the life of me is how the conservative media (*cough* Fox News *cough) calls Pfleger's statement "hate speech." What is hateful about it? The man didn't say that all White people have a sense of entitlement, only that Hillary does. So he wasn't categorizing/stereotyping a group of people at all.
What really gets me in all of this is that all of the good that people like Pfleger and Wright have done--they are shining beacons of hope on the south side of Chicago--are being lost in the media hype over a couple of words. No major news media outlet has actually tackled the question, "So why is Obama aligned with people like Wright and Pfleger if he doesn't agree with these particular statements?" It's because the work that these two men and their churches have done in the community is beyond impressive. They are fighting and working for those who have no voice because they don't have a lot of money. They are turning people's lives around. And yet crazy columnists (like that Uncle Tom Thomas Sowell) have the audacity to ask why Obama earmarked funds for Father Pfleger without even asking what those funds were going to. Even if you think Pfleger is a bad person, since when do you not give anyone the means to do good when they want to do good?
I think it's a bit sad, but not unexpected, that Obama has to distance himself from these people in order to get elected. But that's the way it works in national politics for a Black person--he has to be "deracialized" to a certain extent if he/she expects to win. This fact almost makes me believe that Black people shouldn't even be running for the presidency because it requires him/her to sell a piece of his/her soul in the process. Plus, it gives naive Whites the chance to say "Since we elected a Black person president of the United States of America, I don't ever want to hear a Black person talk about racism, prejudice, or discrimination ever again." But the fact of the matter is that having a Black president is more symbolic than anything. When Blacks are in control of more capital, that's when we will begin moving towards true equality. You can't be equal in a capitalistic society if you ain't got capital.
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 7, 2008 20:54:08 GMT -5
What we see in all of this is that mainstream America has absolutely no idea what it's like to be Black in America, and now that it's being shown and told what this unequal system has produced for hundreds of years, it can't take it. While I don't think that Hillary feels entitled to the presidency because she's White, I DO feel that she feels (or felt, at this point) entitled. But what I can't understand for the life of me is how the conservative media (*cough* Fox News *cough) calls Pfleger's statement "hate speech." What is hateful about it? The man didn't say that all White people have a sense of entitlement, only that Hillary does. So he wasn't categorizing/stereotyping a group of people at all. What really gets me in all of this is that all of the good that people like Pfleger and Wright have done--they are shining beacons of hope on the south side of Chicago--are being lost in the media hype over a couple of words. No major news media outlet has actually tackled the question, "So why is Obama aligned with people like Wright and Pfleger if he doesn't agree with these particular statements?" It's because the work that these two men and their churches have done in the community is beyond impressive. They are fighting and working for those who have no voice because they don't have a lot of money. They are turning people's lives around. And yet crazy columnists (like that Uncle Tom Thomas Sowell) have the audacity to ask why Obama earmarked funds for Father Pfleger without even asking what those funds were going to. Even if you think Pfleger is a bad person, since when do you not give anyone the means to do good when they want to do good? I think it's a bit sad, but not unexpected, that Obama has to distance himself from these people in order to get elected. But that's the way it works in national politics for a Black person--he has to be "deracialized" to a certain extent if he/she expects to win. This fact almost makes me believe that Black people shouldn't even be running for the presidency because it requires him/her to sell a piece of his/her soul in the process. Plus, it gives naive Whites the chance to say "Since we elected a Black person president of the United States of America, I don't ever want to hear a Black person talk about racism, prejudice, or discrimination ever again." But the fact of the matter is that having a Black president is more symbolic than anything. When Blacks are in control of more capital, that's when we will begin moving towards true equality. You can't be equal in a capitalistic society if you ain't got capital. and to this I say AMEN!!! |
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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 9, 2008 6:19:45 GMT -5
What we see in all of this is that mainstream America has absolutely no idea what it's like to be Black in America, and now that it's being shown and told what this unequal system has produced for hundreds of years, it can't take it. While I don't think that Hillary feels entitled to the presidency because she's White, I DO feel that she feels (or felt, at this point) entitled. But what I can't understand for the life of me is how the conservative media (*cough* Fox News *cough) calls Pfleger's statement "hate speech." What is hateful about it? The man didn't say that all White people have a sense of entitlement, only that Hillary does. So he wasn't categorizing/stereotyping a group of people at all. What really gets me in all of this is that all of the good that people like Pfleger and Wright have done--they are shining beacons of hope on the south side of Chicago--are being lost in the media hype over a couple of words. No major news media outlet has actually tackled the question, "So why is Obama aligned with people like Wright and Pfleger if he doesn't agree with these particular statements?" It's because the work that these two men and their churches have done in the community is beyond impressive. They are fighting and working for those who have no voice because they don't have a lot of money. They are turning people's lives around. And yet crazy columnists (like that Uncle Tom Thomas Sowell) have the audacity to ask why Obama earmarked funds for Father Pfleger without even asking what those funds were going to. Even if you think Pfleger is a bad person, since when do you not give anyone the means to do good when they want to do good? I think it's a bit sad, but not unexpected, that Obama has to distance himself from these people in order to get elected. But that's the way it works in national politics for a Black person--he has to be "deracialized" to a certain extent if he/she expects to win. This fact almost makes me believe that Black people shouldn't even be running for the presidency because it requires him/her to sell a piece of his/her soul in the process. Plus, it gives naive Whites the chance to say "Since we elected a Black person president of the United States of America, I don't ever want to hear a Black person talk about racism, prejudice, or discrimination ever again." But the fact of the matter is that having a Black president is more symbolic than anything. When Blacks are in control of more capital, that's when we will begin moving towards true equality. You can't be equal in a capitalistic society if you ain't got capital. and to this I say AMEN!!! Double Amen! |
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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 9, 2008 6:24:45 GMT -5
AT you would be surprised if you really knew who Minister Farrakhan talks to for spiritual counseling..... It would also shock  you to know that he is good friends with major major major leaders in the Christian community..... Some of these very same well known preachers you take up for are very good friends with the Minister.... |
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Post by anointedteacher on Jun 9, 2008 8:43:27 GMT -5
AT you would be surprised if you really knew who Minister Farrakhan talks to for spiritual counseling..... It would also shock you to know that he is good friends with major major major leaders in the Christian community..... Some of these very same well known preachers you take up for are very good friends with the Minister.... Do he speak at their churches or at their conference.... I don't have a problem with "good Friend" cause their definition of friend are total different from my.... I have a problem when you bring a cult leader to your pulpit.... even if he remove himself from the leadership... but if he have not denounced his belief and honor to the Islamic religion and to the god Allah(demon god), he still is apart of a cult. It is no different in allowing an out of the closet gay priest to preach at your church and lay hands on God ppl.... I would feel the same about those well known preachers as I feel about Rev. Pflgean, if they put Farrkhan on the pulpit, very disappointed. We as Christian should not justify what is totally against the Word of God.... I don't care who it is.... I don't hate Farrkhan, I used to love him...I to had to be deliver from him and face the realilty that he is a cult leader and God don't want me to give him honor... regardless to what he preach and how true he sound... I had to repent for giving him space and listening to him, cause it greived the Holy Spirit and it open me up to whatever spirit the man was operating in. |
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Jun 9, 2008 11:15:18 GMT -5
AT, I stand in agreement with you. Like I said from another thread, why are we afraid to "call a spade a spade?" (not meant to offend, just using this phrase as an example). Do we feel it necessary to back someone or to not totally denounce them just because they're African American?? Or, do we think that the good deeds of a man outweigh and excuse and cover up the bad ones? I'm reminicent of President Clinton's impeachment proceedings and how believers were saying that and how disgusted I felt at the time. Excusing his adultery and his perjury because of what a great president he was - once again, being afraid to just "call a spade a spade". What happened to our holy boldness?
p.s.
somebody on one of these threads asked if john hagee was the one who wrote a book saying Jesus never said he was the Messiah. I found this while reading up on him (didn't know much about him and was curious) "The Christian Research Institute (among others) has strongly criticized Hagee's recent book, In Defense of Israel (2007), for apparently arguing that Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah for the Jews, only the Savior for the Christian Church, and therefore that attempts should not be made to convert Jews. Hagee issued a statement denying the first of these allegations and promises to revise one chapter in a new edition to make his views clearer."
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 9, 2008 11:54:34 GMT -5
I don't think "christians" excused his adultery or his perjury. Bill clinton did not profess to be a christian in my book, so he will do as his father does.
However, in saying that, it doesn't negate the fact that CHRISTIANS, themselves, lie, steal, commit adultery, fornication, and a host of other things, which we ALL know is not the identity nor the characteristics of OUR Father.
I am out of touch with whats going on in the latest news regarding Obama, and those who are associated with him, however I agree to KB comments due to the fact that anyone who says anything, and happens to be "associated" with Obama, is being attacked and ripped to shreds, and obama himself is having to distance or rather..explain his reasoning for being "associated" with such individuals.
But not only that, and as KB has already stated, it does appear that the message being driven is, we don't want to hear anything about race, from you, or anybody you are associated with. Your black, so you better not say anything or express anything that seems remotely negative about white folks, white society, or you will be ripped.
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Post by anointedteacher on Jun 14, 2008 22:33:05 GMT -5
Obama, Wright, Trinity Recap
Posted by cjsmith under Christianity, Politics, Religion, US-Domestic, theology
Lost amidst traveling and other issues was Obama leaving Trinity United Church. I wrote a great deal about that issue when it was raging, here and here as only a few examples.
I was hoping that Obama would stay at Trinity United, but I guess it was inevitable after Wright’s theatrics at the National Press Club.
But just as kind of summary of what I think was an important issue (though given the media and the blogsophere handled so poorly).
I define politics as the art of the possible. My own personal political dream/philosophy is so far removed from what is ever going to take place that in the practical decisions I tend towards a moderate, reformist, pragmatism. Ideology is fine for reading and thinking at home but does not govern well.
Religion is where we able and must dream. At best politics gives us some better, some worse, mostly more of the same (Habermas’ dialectic of modernity). But religion offers the possibility of opening a window to a different changed human response to life.
In that sense both Wright and Obama played their respective roles. The tension I found endlessly fascinating and that more than anything is why I’m sad the relationship is ended. I would have loved (from my religious side) to see Wright properly criticize the government with Obama in the crowd. Making clear that his real issue was his theology not skin color.
Obama has no choice but to be a kind of liberal nationalist. That is to be so effusive at the promise of America, to give himself and believe in totally its founding myth of progress and opportunity, to the hilt. Even in some ways more than McCain. He opens the possibility politically of simply ending some of the race based politics of the 70s (white privilege a la Clinton and black demagogues a la the Sharpton school). This is all politically (as what is possible) to the good ime (in my estimation). Something like what Obama’s got is the only alternative to the McCain, Bush Republican corrupt machine (which simply has to be dismembered in the hope that another kind of Party might come probably to act as loyal opposition).
Redemption alternatively is not to be found in politics but rather in religion. And by that I don’t mean redemption as individually feeling good or individually having esoteric experiences. But there is a dimension of the vertical not to be found in politics and when politics becomes enforced visions of redemption, totalitarianism is at hand and bodies are about to pile up.
Only in the churches and religious houses of America is the founding myth of America allowed (and properly) to be challenged and deconstructed. As a political reality it is one thing, to the degree it becomes an end in itself, a myth of transcendence, it is an idol, in violation of the First Commandment and rightly within the realm of religion to be savaged.
In that sense, there has to be a Wright like theology or figure on the scene. Which is not a defense of the man or his own ego (which is enormous and often gets in the way of the gospel, something all clergy do) but simply the need for the theology he outlined.
Again not as a political roadmap per se but rather as a critique that stands of its own to open the mind beyond the political. Obama’s, mine, yours, the creepy Obama is the Messiah follower types, Moral Majority Republicans who have equated Christianity with American Empire, all them and more.
Someone must remember slavery from the position of consciousness, from the sorrow of our ancestors and its continued effects today. As much as a politician must remember and rightly proclaim that slavery is no more and a black man may be elected president. You create new political possibilities from politics not full on reconciliation (which is why governments can prosecute discriminatory public acts not end racism).
That is the permanent (though partial) gift of the prophetic/black church/liberation theology tradition. That is there will always of course be a place within churches for ceremonies of the life cycle, community building, care of souls, hopefully some introduction to the contemplative path, as well as feeding the poor. But if the church (or fill in your own religious house of worship) does not ask why these people are hungry, then it is not following the divine mission. The work for justice is integral to the proclamation of the gospel. Full stop. The Jesuits taught me that and they were/are right.
If you read the Hebrew Bible, as soon as the Kings of Israel emerge on the scene, so do the prophets to stand as a kind of loyal opposition, a critique that the rulers of the world must always here. Which is not to say that the prophets never got themselves caught up in the politics and corrupted or were party to unethical action (read the text, they do) as did Wright (as have others), but their message (if not always the exact messengers) is necessary.
Hopefully Obama will go back to a church where he will properly be both embraced and stand under judgment.
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There nothing wrong with helping a sister out when she type while soaking in the Spirit with Bro Todd... ,drunk in the Spirit, like those on his vidoes, just plain old tried and sleepy... or thinking faster than typing 
or just a bad lazy writer ;D.... look forward to your post and be easy on me.... 
you to know that he is good friends with major major major leaders in the Christian community.....