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Post by nina2 on Feb 20, 2009 6:32:13 GMT -5
I've been reading about divine providence and one of the texts stated about Divine Providence:
"Everything in this world-- be it physical or spiritual, major or minor-- only exists and continues to exist because God wants it to. Inasmuch as it plays a part in God’s greater plan.
But not only is that true of the people, places, and things of this world. It’s also true of everything encompassing every person, place, and thing-- each and every component, property, and implication of everything and everyone serves a function in the greater scheme of things.
Nothing is by accident; everything’s existence is calculated and deliberate; and each and every thing as well as each and every one of us is a “player” rather than an “understudy”, as it were.
After all, a purposeful God would never allow for anything superfluous in His world. Everything would either have to serve His purposes or simply cease to exist. There’s no room for happenstance in God’s creation.
The last point is that God thus continues to oversee each and everything to make sure it fulfills its intended role, and to maintain those that do.
Would that we all understood the profundity of this reality! Could anyone knowing this ever wonder if he or she mattered ? Dare anyone take anything for granted in light of that?"
So, God knows in advance every event which will occur in this world.
But what about man being given free will??
"The question raised by many thinkers is as follows: If God knows the future and every act we will do for the rest of our lives, do we truly have free will?
Do we truly have a choice how we will behave? It is already known that I will sin at a particular time and place. And if so, is there any possible way I can avoid it? I'm *going* to do it! God knows it already! There is no humanly possible way for me to alter my predetermined future!
And so, isn't my life merely a meaningless exercise -- a futile performance of an already- written and predetermined script?
Further, the question goes, if I do not have any real control over the actions I will do, how can I be held accountable for them? I have no choice -- literally!
And if my fate is out of my hands, how can God punish me for my deeds?
And so, not only is free will compromised but yet another great pillar of theology: reward and punishment."
Is it possible to even reconcile divine providence and free will?
Is free will a blessing or a curse?
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Post by giantsdodie on Feb 20, 2009 8:43:30 GMT -5
I've been reading about divine providence and one of the texts stated about Divine Providence:"Everything in this world-- be it physical or spiritual, major or minor-- only exists and continues to exist because God wants it to. Inasmuch as it plays a part in God’s greater plan. But not only is that true of the people, places, and things of this world. It’s also true of everything encompassing every person, place, and thing-- each and every component, property, and implication of everything and everyone serves a function in the greater scheme of things. Nothing is by accident; everything’s existence is calculated and deliberate; and each and every thing as well as each and every one of us is a “player” rather than an “understudy”, as it were. After all, a purposeful God would never allow for anything superfluous in His world. Everything would either have to serve His purposes or simply cease to exist. There’s no room for happenstance in God’s creation. The last point is that God thus continues to oversee each and everything to make sure it fulfills its intended role, and to maintain those that do. Would that we all understood the profundity of this reality! Could anyone knowing this ever wonder if he or she mattered ? Dare anyone take anything for granted in light of that?" So, God knows in advance every event which will occur in this world.
But what about man being given free will??"The question raised by many thinkers is as follows: If God knows the future and every act we will do for the rest of our lives, do we truly have free will? Do we truly have a choice how we will behave? It is already known that I will sin at a particular time and place. And if so, is there any possible way I can avoid it? I'm *going* to do it! God knows it already! There is no humanly possible way for me to alter my predetermined future! And so, isn't my life merely a meaningless exercise -- a futile performance of an already- written and predetermined script? Further, the question goes, if I do not have any real control over the actions I will do, how can I be held accountable for them? I have no choice -- literally! And if my fate is out of my hands, how can God punish me for my deeds? And so, not only is free will compromised but yet another great pillar of theology: reward and punishment." Is it possible to even reconcile divine providence and free will?
Is free will a blessing or a curse? This is the way I try to tell people to think about God's Foreknowledge because many people think God's foreknowledge dictates that he controls EVERYTHING and that simply is not the case.... because God HAS given us free will to make choices.. Think about it this way. You record a basketball game on your VCR because you are busy while the game is being played. That night you rewind the tape and watch the game exactly as it was played. Did the basketball players have a free will in playing the game? Yes. But the results are already fixed on the VCR tape. You watch the game not knowing the outcome, but you know the results are already determined and recorded on the tape. You are watching the players exercise their free will, even though the outcome is already decided. Foreknowledge is just like that VCR tape, except instead of playing the tape after the game, God sees the tape before the game. God would have never told Israel CHOOSE this day who you will serve.. they would have had no ABILITY to actually make a choice if it was already chosen for them.... Thats how I see it... |
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Post by ybrown on Feb 20, 2009 13:49:55 GMT -5
Is it possible to even reconcile divine providence and free will? I think so. Divine providence is God providing. Free will is our ability to choose among all that he has provided. I’ve heard very convincing arguments for both free will and predestination, but at the end of the day they’re still just ideas, doctrines, beliefs that we came up so we can better understand or explain how we think God works. Who said God works in one way over the other? What if He gives some people free will because they can handle it and what if He treats others totally different because they can’t? God never said directly or indirectly through inspiration that He worked one way over another. Somehow we think He does. Jesus never took a stand on the issue. I see why and I won't either. When did what we believe about God become more important than what we actually know about Him? I know it’s the popular thing to do but in reality we don’t create doctrines about people that we love. It’s cold, impersonal and signifies a lack of true relationship. I didn’t have to create a dogma so that I can better understand or explain my daughter. If you came to me and asked me to tell you about her I can speak from my relationship with her, but I’d also tell you to go and get to know her for yourself. Your experience with her may be different. That doesn’t mean she isn’t the same, it just means that she takes into account that you and I aren’t. The beauty in that is later on you and I would be able to talk about how we know she is versus debating the ideas of how we think she is. And where two or three are sharing about her, she'd be right there in the midst of us. So to me the whole free will vs. predestination debate and doctrines (as well as other things we debate) is pointless. No matter how many times I've personally debated, studied and parsed words in Koine Greek, Hebrew, Spanglish or Ebonics, I could never come up with a definitive answer to the free will/predestination question. I think because it’s a question that we (or the enemy) devised and not actually a question that God inspired and/or not one we can get outside of relationship with Him. I have yet to see a time when God hasn’t answered (or is answering) or brought (or is bringing) to fruition a question, prayer, thought or idea that He inspired or coauthored. [/color] I think whether or not you think you have free will, it will or will not be whatever you make of it.  What are your thoughts? |
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Post by nina2 on Feb 21, 2009 9:33:44 GMT -5
I know that I have been given free will.
I think that I can exercise the free will I have been given only within the parameters of God's own divine and perfect will, not just for me, but all of all he created.
If God, the Creator, created everything and saw that it was good, then it was, and still is. That included Man, still does, and if that included Man, then it included me. It also includes everybody else...
He did write the script of that tape that Giants speaks about. He spoke it and it was. There is no "take one... one hundred... one billion" etc... That's it... All of what he willed and did not will, and it is all good, and he is good.
I understand that we think about free will and divine providence, most of the time, in terms of individual life events and choices. However, he created all that is, has ever been and will ever be, saw that it was good, and then rested...
So, in the actual bigger picture, that He only has seen, it is still good: how?
I know the scriptures which are mostly quoted when it comes to those topics. But, for example, when we quote:
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Does "all things" mean "all things"? Are "all things" from beginning to end, including evil? Does that mean that evil works for good? Should we welcome the greatest evil for the greater good?
I believe that free will was given, and given by God who is good, and so it can be only a blessing. But this is not about a battle of the wills...
Ultimately, I do find comfort in what Paul says:
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(Not all my thoughts :-) )
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Post by giantsdodie on Feb 21, 2009 13:41:01 GMT -5
I know that I have been given free will. I think that I can exercise the free will I have been given only within the parameters of God's own divine and perfect will, not just for me, but all of all he created. If God, the Creator, created everything and saw that it was good, then it was, and still is. That included Man, still does, and if that included Man, then it included me. It also includes everybody else... He did write the script of that tape that Giants speaks about. He spoke it and it was. There is no "take one... one hundred... one billion" etc... That's it... All of what he willed and did not will, and it is all good, and he is good. I understand that we think about free will and divine providence, most of the time, in terms of individual life events and choices. However, he created all that is, has ever been and will ever be, saw that it was good, and then rested... So, in the actual bigger picture, that He only has seen, it is still good: how? I know the scriptures which are mostly quoted when it comes to those topics. But, for example, when we quote: Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Does "all things" mean "all things"? Are "all things" from beginning to end, including evil? Does that mean that evil works for good? Should we welcome the greatest evil for the greater good? I believe that free will was given, and given by God who is good, and so it can be only a blessing. But this is not about a battle of the wills... Ultimately, I do find comfort in what Paul says: 1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (Not all my thoughts :-) ) Then how do you reconcile the scripture which says that it is His desire than NONE should perish but that ALL MEN come to repentance.... All men DO NOT come to repentance... |
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Post by nina2 on Feb 21, 2009 15:17:43 GMT -5
It is God's desire, and he certainly made provision for it to happen.
But, it is also a fact that not everybody shall be saved....
Jesus said:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Then, also, in the Old Testament, God himself says:
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
What did Esau do, from the womb, for God to hate him?
Later, Paul says:
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Post by anointedteacher on Feb 21, 2009 19:22:52 GMT -5
It is God's desire, and he certainly made provision for it to happen.
But, it is also a fact that not everybody shall be saved....
Jesus said:Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Then, also, in the Old Testament, God himself says:Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. What did Esau do, from the womb, for God to hate him?
Later, Paul says:Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 [ What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
II John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Whosoever is anyone that's willing |
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Post by nina2 on Feb 22, 2009 7:07:25 GMT -5
Not necessarily... If we try and see, in each of those verses, what "whosoever" was in the original text, saying that "Whosoever is anyone that's willing" could be only one possible interpretation or understanding, already for that one verse, let alone for all of them... Like in the specific case on this one: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 1) the original Greek word has no exact English equivalent: AV — whosoever 35, whatsoever 7, whomsoever 4, whereinsoever 1, what things soever 1, whatsoever + 3745 7, an many as + 3745 4, whosoever + 3745 2, what things so ever + 3745 1, wherewith soever + 3745 1, whithersoever + 3699 4, wheresoever + 3699 2, whatsoever + 3748 5, whosoever + 3748 3, whose soever + 5100 2, not tr 111 .../.. Outline of Biblical Usage: 1) individually - each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively - some of all types And that's really keeping it below the bare minimum in trying to truly go back to the source text. There's a lot more, actually centuries of research... So, I agree with what YBrown said previously: True and I do believe that in keeping seeking, we shall find... Him, and more of Him! What I am NOT saying is that this is a futile intellectual exercise. I love C. H. Spurgeon. He was called "the Prince of Preachers" and a "unique man of God who “had an intuitive knowledge of the ways of God and of the needs of the human heart, and in all his preaching his one object was to commend God to men”. Particular Redemption
A Sermon
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, February 28, 1858 by the
REV. C. H. Spurgeon
at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens."Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many."—Matthew 20:28.Full text of the sermon: www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm |
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Post by nina2 on Feb 22, 2009 7:35:07 GMT -5
PARTICULAR REDEMPTION
BY THE
Rev. J. A. SPURGEON,
OF SOUTHAMPTON. " I think it is well that the death of Christ and its consequent blessings should occupy one place in our discussion here to-night; for not only is it the central truth in the Calvinistic theory, but the death of Christ is the centre point of all history and of all time. The devout of all ages have stood and gazed with anxious glance into these deep mysteries, searching what, or what manner of things the Holy Spirit did by them testify and reveal; and we know that hereafter, in yon world of glory, the redeemed shall sing of these things for ever, and shall find in the Redeemer and in his work, fresh matter for love and for praise as eternity shall roll on. We take our stand between the two, and I think the language of our hearts to-night is akin to all ages of the Church of Christ,—"God forbid that we should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." Now the grand result of the death of our Lord—though not the only result—the grand result of that death, so far as man is concerned, is the redemption which it ultimately achieves; and, with regard to the extent of that redemption, we believe the Scriptures are plain and speak most clearly, when they tell of a final day of manifestation, when the redeemed from amongst men shall take their stand before the Redeemer, to sing of him who, as the good shepherd, hath laid down his life for his sheep, and has purchased unto himself a peculiar people—his body, the Church." Text of the full sermon here: www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0385.htm#atonement
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Feb 22, 2009 8:47:24 GMT -5
Sorry Sis..lol,
I cannot read the long posts...Is there any way you can bring out some of the major points and we can discuss from there?
I have recently changed my stance on "free will vs predestination". I may (or may not) go into it but since it is not a heaven or hell issue (per se) then I don't see the need.
However, I believe (at this time) the bible seems to have Scripture that can support both points of view. But does it really for it is either one or the other.
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Post by anointedteacher on Feb 22, 2009 13:35:24 GMT -5
I am not about to read a book (articles too long) on a doctrine that is far from my belief.... which is the Calvinist(sp) mindset.... Freewill is a gift from God to mankind.... We have the ability to choose... period.
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Post by kanyon on Feb 22, 2009 15:04:09 GMT -5
Dead people have no free will, in fact they have no will at all unless they are called and enabled.
We read. "You who were dead in trespasses and sins..."
You can kick a dead person all over the parking lot and demand that they exercise their free will. Sorry, they can't . They are dead.
Double period!! ;D
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Post by anointedteacher on Feb 22, 2009 17:48:29 GMT -5
Dead people have no free will, in fact they have no will at all unless they are called and enabled. We read. "You who were dead in trespasses and sins..." You can kick a dead person all over the parking lot and demand that they exercise their free will. Sorry, they can't . They are dead. Double period!! ;D Let me see you go and kick a sinner all over the parking lot and see what happen. ;D You know one of those California gang member.... We will see who will me dead  Sinners have freewill, they make choices everyday, just like us.... I've choose to reject God more than one tme before I got saved... I've choose to go back into the world after I got saved and I have choose to come back to God... Even when the soul and spirit make their bed in heaven or help... have a mind to think ... We are NOT ROBOT... God is not sitting on the throng with a remote control gaming with the universe. YES... the sinner who are dead in sin, has freewill Triple period!!! |
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Post by kanyon on Feb 22, 2009 22:19:18 GMT -5
Sorry, not possible for dead person to have one eyeball open...still dead and unresponsive! Quad triple ;D Period!!
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Post by nina2 on Feb 23, 2009 4:43:01 GMT -5
I really think, for what it's worth, that this is exactly why it is so difficult to have a meaningful discussion about any topic, truly
Because, the truth of the matter is that nobody has to read anything or participate in anything. We do choose for that too.
If the articles are too long, then how relevant is that anyway? Anybody who is remotely interested in something can read in diagonale, and again, if it's of no interest, just leave it alone..
Also, imho, we (general) should not always be in such a hurry to label and tag what ever we perceive to be said, and try to go beyond what is actually said.
Yes, Spurgeon was a calvinist, and it shows, obviously. Again, there is no obligation upon anybody to read or to get into it at all. Personally, it's not to a doctrine that I hold on to.
Finally, at least to me, when it comes to any discussion, it never matters to me who has the last word, and my purpose is never to be that one.
I am and have always been an avid learner, and a passionate seeker. I do believe that we are supposed to learn, all the time, and I am convinced that, God forbid, should I ever stop learning, then there would be no reason to keep on.
So, "we have the ability to choose... period" as in "...the end" (?), and that's exactly what it is.
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