|
|
Post by Giants DO Die ns on Nov 15, 2005 17:10:50 GMT -5
Every person ultimately is responsible for their own salvation. Every person is responsible to develop their OWN intimate and personal relationship with GOD. The problem isnt with GOD its with us as individuals investing the time, effort and energy to develop that relationship and the real place where the rubber hits the road is be willing to DIE to self and our own will and our own desires IN EVERY AREA in order to gain the greatest prize imaginable which is to know HIM.
Leaders fall. God word has shown us this fact. David messed up. Solomon messed up. Peter denied Jesus etc etc. The key is for these people of God to repent and to get it right with GOD and yes GOD may have them sit for a season, to be delivered and in many cases to be healed. We dont excuse the sin yet we must always be willing and ready to forgive and restore as the Lord does us.
Yes the fauly mainly lies with us. One cannot be led astray unless one is either totally ignorant or totally willing.
|
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on Nov 15, 2005 19:28:13 GMT -5
Giants..I agree. Yes, we all fall short in one or another. Mature believers shouldn't be easily sway by some of these thing. Yet, we must always remember that there are new believers who are just beginning their walk with the Lord. As there are some who are not quite strong even to turn away from what many of us on this board to know as sin, lies, and deception. We will never know how many people who have gone home and told their spouses. " I am leaving today; and flying to Mexico tonight and marrying somebody I just met 2 weeks ago at foundations class; because God told me that I married the wrong person ". And by the way don't bother talking to "Pastor" he(or she) already knows about it; and has given his(or her)blessing; because he (or she) did the same thing and understands". The leader wasn't called out the name was mentioned in the article and much of this as we know is public knowledge.
Giants wrote:
The problem isnt with GOD its with us as individuals investing the time, effort and energy to develop that relationship and the real place where the rubber hits the road is be willing to DIE to self and our own will and our own desires IN EVERY AREA in order to gain the greatest prize imaginable which is to know HIM.
And that's the truth of the whole subject matter !!
|
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on Nov 15, 2005 19:44:58 GMT -5
Let's all remember that we cannot take offense at comments made to; referring to; or directed at each other. Yes, there are many speaking "new revelation"; yet I do not believe that anyone on this board has tried to introduce anything new that would fulfill any ungodly purpose. God is shaking up the body of Christ and if your foundation is not built on the Word of God and you really don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ; then you are going to fall. We all agree that you must know the word of God for yourself. Yes, God forgives, extends mercy, loves, and so much more..yet, when when we don't repent, and return to him..he will bring judgment..he did with Israel what makes us thing we're exempt ? Alot of what we teach, we speak, share, and even discuss on this board is what we have been taught by the various denominational backgrounds that we come from and there's nothing wrong with that. I was just reminded of something that I read in book that I was reading on prayer. The author that the penacostals felt like they had the best thing going; and they charistimics felt like they had something better..yet, the bottom line was each party was missing something the other had. And because they could not that what needed to be done could not be accomplished.
|
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on Nov 15, 2005 20:44:10 GMT -5
Ohwee Ha ha; I am ROTFL ;D Ok I don't post often, but that was the most offensive post I have EVER read on this board. I pray to God you were kidding and I missed it. As a pentecostal- spirit-filled, Bible reading, child of God, how dare you? What...TD Jakes is stupid? Noel Jones....Jackie McCullough...Sheryl Brady...them too? Biblically illiterate as you say? Lord you let folk talk enough and their true colors show. Where was the love for your brother and sister in Christ in that statement? That just reeked of high-mindedness and self-righteousness! ICK! Somebody please tell me I missed something and this was a bad joke. Oh course I am in no way implicating all Pentecostals and charismatics, as I myself cherish my Pentecostal heritage. The key word in my statement was "some." It's crazy the type of mess you can get away with in MANY (not all) of our Pentecostal/charismatic churches, because we have not been taught to THINK but only "receive." So as long as it sounds good and it is said loud, we don't care how much scripture supports it. It's a sad day in Pentecostalism today. Many of our predecessors not only had power, but had such an astute grip on the Word that it puts many of our contemporary pulpiteers to shame: Bishop C.H. Mason, Bishop R.C. Lawson, Bishop G.T. Haywood, etc. were master handlers of the Word. The Word was rightly divided (the deep things of God, not the shallow "God's going to bring me out" crap we hear today), WITH signs following. The Body of Christ has GOT to get it together. |
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on Nov 15, 2005 22:45:31 GMT -5
My My My !!!
|
|
|
|
Post by jasmine nsi on Nov 15, 2005 23:33:49 GMT -5
Throwing my hankie @ GDD & Krazee..Ya'll betta preach the gospel!
|
|
|
|
Post by Guest on Nov 16, 2005 4:00:48 GMT -5
I've been in black pentecostal churches where the "sling your oil - run around the church- talk in your heavenly tongue-sow your thousands message" is in operation and I came to the conslusion that it was all dead. I've also been in "conservative, predominantly white, written prayer and hymn singing churches" and I came to the conclusion that it was dead. What the church need is power and this isn't measured by whether one is charismatic or not. It's not even measured by how much Word you know (rather than how much is actually operative in you).
The power that we need in this last hour is not only the anointing upon but the anointing within. The anointing upon is "gift level". It operates as the Father wills it to. The anointing within is for our lifestyle. There is a power we can tap into not only because of a gift or an anointing upon, but because of the cleanliness in our life. Now that's real power. I believe there is a power we can tap in our love walk. The time must come where we can heal not because of a gift only but the cleanliness in our life is so effective that it provokes what we speak in the name of Jesus to be done. Does not the bible say the prayers of the righteous avail much? You can go ahead and stay on the gifts and the power that the anointing upon can bring, but the spirit is teaching me that there's a power that the anointing within can bring. We always talk about what the older saints did, but I'm longing for even greater works to be done. There's no difference between them and us today. All we must do is walk clean, live righteous, walk in love, and walk in correct knowledge of the Word before God and we can have the same (or even greater) results in our lives.
Yes, there is mess in the church, but simply watch and stay away from it. Don't gossip about it. Be grieve at the mess and pray. Pray esp. for those who you know are straying. Even though the bible says there will be those who stray, we must keep such a hedge of prayer around them to where the enemy can't have our leaders ultimately. It said they would stray, not they couldn't return unless they were apostates. Apostasy isn't the same as being in error (as I'm sure many of you know). There is power in the prayer of a righteous man. The bible says God will not let it continue without exposing it and bringing it to the ground. He also tells us to restore individuals who have errored and if they refuse to line up after 3 times, then we should break fellowship. We should also automatically break fellowship with a Christian knowingly living in sin, according to the Word. If an individual goes out and start a church and it's not God, then God will deal with it, for he is a God of justice, not to be harsh but to restore righteous order. Leaders, according to the Word, must not lord over the flock but be examples to the flock. Some leaders are not good examples, but please don't let that be justification in putting all leaders in the same category. Just because one leader raises offerings and steal it to buy a Mercedes, doesn't mean all pastors who drive mercedes are doing that. We must learn to trust our leaders, unless wrong actions are brought to the attention of the church. I know trust is hard when bad experiences have occurred but it doesn't make the principle of trust void. I have heard Christians say they have a right to be bitter and evidently alot of healing is needed in the church, for it's hard at times to teach a wounded soul bible truth. Nevertheless, don't feel you have to be in a church where abuse is taking place. Likewise, it takes maturity to realize that the pastor isn't perfect and he'll make mistakes/errors. Take it as a sign of what not to do, esp. when God deals with his leader. We must submit to authority, realizing that the ultimate authority is Christ. This mean if Christ isn't in a leader, I gotta go! I'll pray for him and I won't put my mouth on him in a derogatory manner (the bible says to speak evil of no man), but I will stay way from erroneous mess. As for babes in Christ, those of us that are mature all have a responsibility to nurture them, not just the pastor. Remember, God gives the five-fold ministry (as we term it today) to equip the saints for ministry, even though this doesn't mean leaders are exempt from ministry. It simply mean we all have a role to play. We must pray for each other, our leaders, and churches for the devil seeks to wreck havoc to God's anointed (which is the people of God as a whole, not just a leader).
Love is what the church need. We think we know what love is but I'm just recently understanding its power. Love is not no elementary teaching. It is perhaps the most "meaty" teaching that the majority hasn't grown to digest. Yet, love is the teaching that our Lord left with his disciples to manifest more than anything -not church attendance, not the gifts, not you're coming out in 3 days, not sow your thousand and reap your millions, not the pastor's appreciation and church anniversary, not wearing big ole' hats and white robes for convocation and eating chicken afterwards. It was love, for in love we fulfill the 10 commandments whether we realize it or not (at least that's scripture). Love is eternal.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Nov 16, 2005 7:58:04 GMT -5
At the same time, we must remember that not all of either example is dead. What makes a "church" dead is when Jesus is not there.
All scriptures that I can recall about the annointing has to do with annointing coming upon a person for we know that we are annointed to DO. So I would like to hear more about what scriptures you are using to discuss the annointing being within a person. Are you equating the annointing with the HG? We know that based on Acts 1:8 we recieve power once we receive the HG and are therefore able to be witnesses.
Also, regarding "greater works" I believe that when Jesus said this, it was based on the greater impact that would be made based on many people that would all have the HG within. So yes, we can do just as the "saints of old" did and it's based on allowing God to live within us and not ourselves.
Prayer is definitely important. And it's important not to gossip and we should follow the word in reference to how to deal with a person (as described below). These rules aren't just based on what some call "laity" but would also be true for those whoare called "leaders" as well.
Also, there are times when God wants us to say or do nothing. This is why it is important to know the will of God. We may want to pray a hedge of protection; but we need to know what God is asking. It's possible that in order to bring them back, they may need to understand who God is through "hard times". But I agree that there is power in prayer.
I think that God can be what we may call "humanly" harsh. At the same time, we also have to let them know that what they are doing is wrong.... if we KNOW that it is. FOr if we see the sword and say nothing, than the blood will be on our hands.
One more question:
1. Can you expound on how love fulfills the 10 commandments? especially since I don't believe that we are all literally following ALL of the 10 commandments; more specifically the commandment in reference to the sabbath.
|
|
|
|
Post by Guest on Nov 16, 2005 10:12:56 GMT -5
At the same time, we must remember that not all of either example is dead. What makes a "church" dead is when Jesus is not there. Well, of course![SMILING] I John 2:27 explains it very well. The anointing within is the Holy Spirit in His operative power. His operative power can be upon even a donkey, but his operative power within is for the building up of the believer so that when anything that is not like God come my way I'm able to resist it. There's enough power in the Spirit for my lifestyle! Remember, he has the power to lead us into all truth. The last part of what you said is my exact thoughts. Yes, I'm referring to leaders and laity alike. ... and because there is power in prayer, continue to pray without ceasing. God deals with people differently, and in all things we should pray His will be done, but we should yet pray a hedge around leaders and our churches (even if they haven't fallen into grave error). It's just good to pray. That's what I was trying to make reference to. #1 He's not "humanly harsh" for the sake of just being mean. The intention of his judgement is to restore godliness and true worship no matter how we may perceive that judgement. #2 When we let people know what they're doing is wrong before the sword comes, I would deem this part of the restoration process. If they refuse to repent, then break the fellowship knowing that the blood will not be required at your hands if they die in their sins. However, many people are not about restoration but they lash out, gossip, and throw innuendos at an individual when God may show them something that isn't right (and this doesn't help the matter). Nothing is wrong with talking about what we see wrong in a particular ministry (for I'm sure we all have done this at some point and it needs to be discussed). Yet, we ourselves must be careful that we don't make it an opportunity to indulge in the flesh. We can follow the principle in every commandment. 8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10When you look at the 10 Commandments, it really shows the love we should have first for God, then our fellowman. When we fulfill the law of love, we fulfill these commandments. In regards to the Sabbath, the NT lets us know that we shouldn't debate such things but the principle of the Sabbath is setting aside time firstly for God. This is an act of our love toward God. Whether you observe the Sabbath or not isn't a metter of heaven or hell. Today, we are no longer under the law (in which the Commandments were written, but really when we walk in love we fulfill the commandments regardless). If you are not convinced of where I'm coming from maybe you'll agree with Matthew Henry: Christians must avoid useless expense, and be careful not to contract any debts they have not the power to discharge. They are also to stand aloof from all venturesome speculations and rash engagements, and whatever may expose them to the danger of not rendering to all their due. Do not keep in any one's debt. Give every one his own. Do not spend that on yourselves, which you owe to others. But many who are very sensible of the trouble, think little of the sin, of being in debt. Love to others includes all the duties of the second table. The last five of the ten commandments are all summed up in this royal law, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; with the same sincerity that thou lovest thyself, though not in the same measure and degree. He that loves his neighbour as himself, will desire the welfare of his neighbour. On this is built that golden rule, of doing as we would be done by. Love is a living, active principle of obedience to the whole law. Let us not only avoid injuries to the persons, connexions, property, and characters of men; but do no kind or degree of evil to any man, and study to be useful in every station of life. However, unlike Henry, I believe we fulfill the principles of all the Commandments regardless when we walk in love, not just half. Hope this helps you. |
|
|
|
Post by HezSweet ns guest on Nov 16, 2005 13:18:10 GMT -5
Krazeee Thanks for the clarity! Putting both barrels back in the holster. ;D And you went old school on me...Hayward and the like. Haven't heard those names since I left Los Angeles! I agree, we've got to know the Word for ourselves or we will deceived by a bunch of foolishness. The goal for our ministry is to walk in integrity/holiness in our public AND private lives. Now ain't that a novel idea?  And I don't know what to say about snake handling folk. That scripture that begins with "if you" and then I immediately think of Paul who accidentally picked one up when shipwrecked, the thing did him no harm. David Koresh and the rest, we'll I'm not sure if I'd call them my brother and sister in Christ. I'm sure they wouldn't claim me either! Sighing a big sigh of relief... HezSweet |
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on Nov 16, 2005 22:01:09 GMT -5
I checked out the bulletin board on hosted by charisma and the comments regarding this topic spoke loud and clear. People are tired of all the games that are played and just want the truth to be revealed. The comments by these people were not mean-spirited, as the comments came from across the board. It seemed to me that many were relieved and glad that someone finally spoke out against something that many see; yet, just have not had the voice to speak against it. I advise you to go the board directly to read it yourself. There was no tearing down, speaking against, or putting of others just sincere gratitude to have this kind of thing exposed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Guest on Nov 17, 2005 5:37:55 GMT -5
I read that Charisma board a week ago. My response wasn't in reference to that board or this board. Just making general statements. No disagreements here. There are even leaders who are sick and tired of leaders. Although judgement is being talked about, I don't believe God wants his church to be the people vs. the leaders (for we are all to submit to each other). However, I'm realizing that all the crap that's been built up for years, the people are not settling for it anymore. They want the true God! Amen? Gotta hurry back to work now!
|
|
|
|
Post by True NSI on Nov 17, 2005 11:10:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately A lot of this comes from my Bishop. They have been showing this on the news here etc. So many allegations about him and his brother a pastor and other pastors from our church as well as around the world that are involved. It's about a sex scam and money etc. It's really sad and hard to deal with when you trust someone to lead you who has been saying one thing and doing another. I am learning that no one can truly be trusted but the Lord. I feel as though I have been duped. I think back on all the pastors who came to our church preaching this and that and giving a word prophecy. And when I look back none of those words have come to pass. I think of years of false words spoken in that pulpit it really hurts me. All these women coming forth with allegations and then to find out this has been going on since the 60's what?  I tell ya this on top of everything else that is going on in my life makes it very hard to pray sincerely. Sad thing is I love my bishop and pastors but I am so disappointed in them right now. At first I was like what they do in their own home is their business. There are plenty church folk who go home and do so and so. So who am I to judge them. But the more we hear and read it saddens me. I still say it's their life and the Lord still loves them. But boy does this stuff open my eye's to seeing in a whole new light. No one can be trusted EVERYONE lies including me. But I just figured when it came to Christ that we would be truthful. Silly of me to think that I know. Now when a pastor or prophet says the Lord said this or that I have to question everything they say  Because at this point I cannot see myself believing them. I pray for all who are /were involved. I also pray for my mind state. But on a positive it has helped me to look to Christ more so than man. Man will let ya down but God won't ever.... |
|
|
|
Post by Guest on Nov 17, 2005 13:26:13 GMT -5
It grieves me to see the people of God get to the point where trust, respect, and submission to leadership is a 'word' people don't want to hear right now. It equally saddens me that many leaders have slacked from being examples to the flock with a certain coldness toward the sheep who deep down love them and want to be all that God wants them to be. It is truly saddening. I remember recently, I was interceding for leaders in the midwest region and God took me up in tongues that I've never spoken in before (this indicated that I tapped the mind of God concerning what the Spirit was expressing concerning leaders). I prayed for God to get the manipulation, witchcraft, abuse, and deceit out of leadership, and the Spirit beared witness. It was so heavy on me that I had to literally pull my car over. I don't say this to brag but to show you that the Spirit is calling for purification in leadership. This post has really revealed to me the heart of God's people. The people want to trust and love leadership, but the coldness in many (not all) of leaders is sowing a seed of coldness in the people of God. People want the truth and no more lies. People are ready to know the true God but need real leaders to show them how. Christ is the good shepherd who we must ultimately follow but the Lord said he will give us pastors and shepherds after his own heart (that's what people are looking for). It's one thing to watch leaders who error. It's another thing to watch people sit in church disconnected due to hurt and shame from a leadership not purified in the love of God. When leaders live their lives inconsiderate of how it will make the people they lead feel is not right (such as in the example of what has been given in this post with the Bishop. This isn't error or deception. This is an apparent problem that is wounding many. If the church will take time and just teach on love, you will see a big change in the church. I will take this to prayer tomorrow morining for Satan will not have victory in the church in wounding souls no longer. We must be strong and endure, people of God. I will say that Juanita Bynum prophesied recently that we will see some major leaders fall ( I forgot the exact number quoted). Grieved  |
|
|
|
Post by true on Nov 17, 2005 22:59:36 GMT -5
Very well said Guest  |
|
Because at this point I cannot see myself believing them. 
