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Post by Rachel2 on Jul 22, 2009 15:13:59 GMT -5
Laughing at Nikkol
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Post by anointedteacher on Jul 22, 2009 19:03:04 GMT -5
Nikkol, I guess you are about to "pass out" again, because like Kitty said, we don't agree on much, but I have to agree with you here. My Pastor also has a Pastor's HEART. His wife is an excellent preacher but she does not have the heart of a pastor. She is too impatient and could be more tactful in many situations. The point is I don't believe God has called her to the office of Pastor. I am still trying to figure out when it became so fashionable for the First Lady to become co-pastor of many churches. I have seen ministries where the husband died and the wife took over as pastor and the ministry stopped flourishing. And I believe it is because the wife was not meant to be pastor. I believe AT mentioned somebody else coming in and taking over all of your hard work and what you have built, well the fact of the matter is, the work belongs to God, not the pastor or his wife. I think this is where many ministries get off track. Which leads into my next point. I don't believe that people should name ministries after themselves. The ministry is not yours, it is Gods' and putting your name on it often times make you think it belongs to you which eventually leads to you being out of the will of God by trying to "keep the ministry in the family". If you read my post, I say till God send someone for that position. If it a prosperous ministry...there will be many standing in line for that position, men and women, but may not be who God want and have for that minisry. Meanwhile in case of death of the pastor, the wife or the closest person should stand in the gap and wait till God send the right minister to fulfill that position... The wrong person will bring death to that ministry,it happen to my church. If the wife is called, she should step in... If the husband or wife (there are woman pastors) step down for a season or decide to take sometime off to be along with God... Nothing wrong with the wife or husband to be in place, till he/she return. Anytime a leader passed away... the church will suffer, I don't care who is in charge... it will never be the same, cuz ppl had become attached to their leader. And most of the time they don't want an outsider, they want the first lady or one of the leader that they can relate to. This happen an COGIC pastor... his wife became the pastor because the members didn't want anyone esle... she was the first COGIC woman pastor.. can't think of her name. Recently my uncle passed last year and now his wife is pastoring and this is an Holiness Church. God don't always automatically send someone, what do you dowhile waiting? By the way I believe is called to pastor... rather she should, I don't know.... It been 2 year since her divorce.... only God can judge this situaion. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 22, 2009 20:56:03 GMT -5
Personally, I think something is seriously wrong if, upon the death of a senior pastor, not one man can be found capable to lead the flock from among the flock.
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Post by anointedteacher on Jul 22, 2009 23:01:45 GMT -5
Personally, I think something is seriously wrong if, upon the death of a senior pastor, not one man can be found capable to lead the flock from among the flock. It because God had a woman to place in that position... Bishop Isaia Williams of Jesus' People Minitries of Miami, Fla passed 2 weeks ago... his wife is senior pastor now, she is just as anointed... she have preached on an on going basis... I pray God strengthen her, Bishop used her biggest cheer.. 4 years ago he told his congregation, that if he die, his wife will pastor church and if they have problem with woman pastors,they can leave. Of course there be some transition, cuz ppl greiving over the loss, they will make it. |
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Post by Beulah5 on Jul 23, 2009 6:21:48 GMT -5
Wow applauding Kitty and Krazeeboi -this issue of paula white goes beyond just a pastor whose health is failing calling in someone to help him oversee the church.
The whole issue of ministers and divorce and the lack of accountability-your comment that we do not know what happened at is spot on in showing that they have themselves not been accountable.
There is wrong judgment and there is right judgment and part of that is the fact that these men and women of God insist on carrying on at all costs even when it is obvious that they are in no way or shape capable for a season of leading God's people.
Do you know the problem with these people? It is not simply the fact that they got divorced it is the fact that they feel they do not owe the people of God any explanation i dont know whether it is out of fear or pain but like kitty said when you reach a certain level of exposure by the lord you certainly owe it to the people who sat under you and supported as to the mess you got yourself in.
We all know that there are grounds for biblical divorce and in both their cases we do not see it.
Many of these churches are in trouble because of the superstar lifestyles that they lead-who says you have to go and mortgage a 100 million dollar building? when there are shelters and a dying world out there?
If you have the money sitting there fair enough but most of the problem in the church in relation to finances is living above our means and a lack of proper stewardship.
Yes wrong wrong wrong on every level and even with randy's failing health if i was both of them i will sit down and search myself out in regards to some serious spiritual issues that might be at play here.
Like you Krazeeboi i believe that any church in this day and age that has no men is in trouble matter of fact i dont care whether you are a woman or a man if you have a ministry start looking at encouraging and drawing men in.
I also agree with Rachel-the names of ministries should represent what the lord is trying to accomplish through His call on your life that way all the glory goes to Him.
The church if we choose to can solve all the problems of this world if we would get beyond ourselves and our need for recognition.
AT i am sorry to hear that folks were not there for juanita when she needed them -i till date have not seen juanita expressing that she needs anybody and perhaps that is the problem that folks have been having with her for a while-her pride which could have gone by now but definitely was there in the past.
Do people stop liking someone for no reason? No this was someone who people loved because of her messages on dying and living for God untill to some of us she decided that marriage with the world and serving God could work.
Who do you think is the author of the undoing of all these ministers? Could it perhaps be the chastisement of the lord Himself or perhaps they are the ones who got themselves into the mess in the first place.
The reality is that you cannot skip or jump steps because of where you are-people have questions that are not going to go away from what caused their divorces to how money was handled and how even nation led called ministers can be fighting over louis vuitton and throwing bricks at each other......i mean WHAT A MESS!!!
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Post by anointed on Jul 23, 2009 9:04:59 GMT -5
I just posted a pretty long exposition of my take but I guess I can sum it up and a few statements:
Leave these people alone. They have no responsibility to delve their private issues out to the public as a married couple if they don't find the need. That's just people wanting to KNOW and when you don't know you go pull anything else out that's speculative and this is not of God as well. I'm not saying you have no right to an opinion but sometimes we just need to be quiet and judge things in its proper timing and at this point none of us know how Paula White's return to the church may be beneficial or not as far as the vision of the Church goes. Krazeeboi, you have a right to your opinion and I'm not really a fan of Paula White but I have heard her minister and see that she explicates the Word of God well. So to view her as entertaining is pretty low for even I, with an objective view, knows she has an anointing for teaching.
As far as Juanita Bynum, many people still love her and I've never doubted her being a prophet because of a divorce. I know it's difficult to see those we hold with regard fail our expectations but maybe it's this point right here where God is trying to show us that those persons aren't God but only vessels. One thing I've always loved about JB is her transparancy. She has often said she's no different from the next person as far as her growing in her walk with God; the only difference is she is called and it's her season to come forth. I believe God is enlarging her prophetic scope to not only reach the church but other realms of society in which prophets should have presence. And many times this transition does require upgrade of the truth we walk in. Therefore, don't mistake being IN the world with being OF the world. I will say in watching her Tuesday night program, that she has some apostles and pastors and armorbearers (some who are men and of other races) around her who seems to be in her best interest and this makes me proud. Beulah, she does have spiritual accountability and counsel through a respected Christian therapist and minister, Dr. Carolyn Showell. Juanita revealed a couple of weeks ago that she was at a point of backsliding during her trial when this woman stepped in to tell her that the Church needs her still.
As a Christian, I'm believing the best for Paula White, Randy White, Juanita Bynum and ministers throughout the land in general. I realize leaders are not perfect but with God's correction and maturity, they can rise above failures, losts, and defeats. Yes, the church has experienced some mess in recent years and judgment begins at the house, but God in his grace still has a purpose for all of His children regardless of how low they get. We ALL need God from the highest pulpit to the lowest pew. I think instead of not letting the past go, we should move forward to see how things pan out with our leaders and if it still isn't God he will spurn and bring it to nought. The thing is we haven't got that far yet in this new season to see this occur therefore let's reserve our judgments.
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Post by Beulah5 on Jul 23, 2009 10:11:14 GMT -5
As a fellow minister of God and actually an apostle i do not believe that ministers of the gospel are entitled to 'private lives' and i use that loosely particularly when it damages the body of Christ.
We are all believing the best for everyone-divorce is painful and if you note that is not the only issue that folks have with these people it is the twisted theology and other issues preceding their divorces that if left unchecked comes back to harm us.
The authority of the prophet is in his or her ability to be consistent in thus saith the lord. I have seen Bynum in some of her programs and although i have never doubted her call i am not personally convinced and have not been sure of the path she had been treading since her so called ark and horses days even prior to her divorce.
For me this post is not about bynum or paula per se it is about how should some of these issues be handled in the church when it is at leadership level? be it todd bentley, tedd haggart down to little old me.
Also let us remember that many of the things that we see in our lives are simply fruits of a problem that has existed for a long time or been brewing under the surface.
As to the people just being nosy comment i am like ......wt.... we hold our presidents accountable, we hold our ceos accountable even if they meant well and their actions went wayward we still expect the truth.
How much more the church of Jesus Christ? When i fell into fornication during my time as a leader in the church i had to publicly repent.
Yes there is mess and mess will never go away but a whole long line of it does not do anyone any favours because you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the time.
Private lives? what of the broken sheep left behind after the white scandal? the foreclosure of the church which thousands had invested their monies, time, families etc when mrs white decided that God had called her to whatever city she went to.
what of those? and how those God feel about his sheep being hurt? Private life? When you request 200,000 dollars for a prayer floor because it is unsafe for you to go out you stop making your life private.
You cannot court the media and the public when it suits you and then scream intrusion when it doesnt suit you.
I mean how on earth will anyone have known about the Louis Vuitton if one didnt come telling? ROFL!
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Post by Nikkol on Jul 23, 2009 10:24:59 GMT -5
The key is knowing if they are called vs. that they just went. The pressure and the attack from the enemy if the person isn't called to that position can be so severe.......the issue isn't perse filling in the gap.....the issue is filling the gap when you weren't called to do it. It's like making a bridge and you have two pieces: 1 that is too short and 1 that is just right. Putting some1 in a position they aren't called for is liking using that smaller piece of wood that's too short. It appears ok...but once some1 walks on it, they see how unfit that piece really was.
And when one gets to the place where you can see that "blessings" if aren't done in God's way really aren't blessings, it totally changes your look on everything.
If I'm not mistaken, there are churches by which the "senior pastor" changes every 2 years just so that they don't become so attached that if the leader leaves they would be "change". I think it's the Methodist church and maybe some sabbath churches?? (I'm not sure).
At the same time, one can't go by their own feelings. Or who "they" want. It has to be by God and sometimes the person that God chooses isn't who the ppl may want. Yet, it's the best person.
I think you may be referring to Mother Oakley and then it was Pastor Maria Gardner.
Wait. I mean you can still have services, etc. However, to just put someone in a position that isn't indicated by God, you're asking for trouble and calling that person to be in disobedience.
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Post by anointed on Jul 23, 2009 10:38:43 GMT -5
Beulah I understand your position. I truly do.
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 23, 2009 11:52:10 GMT -5
Sis. Beulah, we are in one Honda Accord.  |
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Post by anointed on Jul 23, 2009 13:37:49 GMT -5
I guess with ministry one not only inherits the responsibility to uprightly represent God before the people, but even in moments of failures and mistakes, inherit the fortitude to withstand the controversy and negative feedback as well. I just rather hear some things that are going on good in the Kingdom for a change (not ignoring the problems) just overwhelmed with focusing on what's always wrong.
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Post by anointed on Jul 23, 2009 14:20:54 GMT -5
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 23, 2009 16:38:01 GMT -5
The problem that I have is that integrity has gone out of the window as far as leaders are concerned. I have never seen so many people who just blindly follow leadership because that same so-called leadership has conditioned them to believe that whenever genuine issues arise and questions are posed, they are "putting their mouths" on the man/woman of God. As far as I'm concerned, it's quite sickening. As it was said before, this isn't accepted with CEO's or heads of states in developed nations, but for some reason we accept it in God's house and just sweep this stuff under the rug. It's a stench in the nostrils of God and it has to STOP. These so-called leaders are NOT above the law of God and that's how they are acting. They would rather have the fame and fortune then be held accountable for their shortcomings. There is much to celebrate in the Body of Christ certainly, but this trend that we're speaking of here needs to be stopped dead in its tracks and I pray it happens sooner rather than later. Judgment must begin at the House of God.
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Post by kitty on Jul 23, 2009 18:29:49 GMT -5
Hey Sister Bee,
Good to see you! Missed you on the board...
Nikkol... LOL I'm sure we probably agree on more topics than we disagree .
Anointed... I personally could careless why Paula and Randy got a divorce! What I don't like is the fact that they IMPLIED that their separation was GOD'S WILL... And that was done with the statement that, "God was calling them to be apart at this time..." And if I'm not mistaken this statement was made when members of the church were starting to question their behavior as a married couple... a couple that clearly had already separated.
I would have had more respect for them if they would have owed up to their own mistakes... Several people in ministry have done so and went on to continue to have strong ministries such as Charles Stanley. However, even he had to convince the board of his church to allow him to stay. Plus I do believe that he may have also vowed not to remarry. Now I'm not 100% on that but I do know that he had to have an on going dialog with his church. In Paula's case there has been talk of her having some strong involvement with another man... This started before she and Randy got a divorce.
Krazeboi and Bee I so agree that this idea that these people shouldn't be accountable is really crazy! We are kidding ourselves if we think their actions don't affect the body of Christ that is under them.
For example... In my cousin's last church the Pastor went through 3 wives within 11 years! There was Never a reason given for these divorces. Each time he got a divorce the congregation got smaller and smaller... Now the church is in danger of closing. Oh and by the way... since the Pastor clearly didn't know how to minister to others in the area of marriage.... he also had a hand in helping my cousin and her husband to divorce! Her husband was a deacon at the church and spent a lot of time getting advice from this very same Pastor! Look what the results were...
Sadly this church just didn't have the heart to ask this guy to step down... Now they split up and half the members are gone and they can't draw in new members... But just the same... Maybe God closing the church would be a way of protecting His people...
Oh and lastly... I'll say it again... If people aren't good stewards of money then they shouldn't be over it! That's just using common sense and God given wisdom.
Following people blindly is just plain dangerous... Even the Rev. Jim Jones started off as a decent Baptist preacher in Indiana! I saw a PBS special on him about 2 years ago. The scary part of it was that they showed he had a very nice church in Indiana for 10-15 years before the madness started before he moved to Caifornia.
The Rev.Jim Jones was actually also a VERY GOOD PREACHER! They played video tapes of some of his sermons while in Indiana, all that I heard lined up with the word of God. But witnesses that were former members of the church tell about how he slowly moved away from God...inch by inch... While members started to follow him more than bible.
By the time he had folks in south america declaring that all marriages were null and void! Plus having a harem of both men and women... People had LONG checkd their minds at the door! They missed SEVERAL Red flags and ended up in a Hell on Earth...
Let just not forget what happens when people decide that what their Pastor does in his or her "private life" is OK. Or none of their business..... Death and tragic results occur!
Kitty
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Post by anointed on Jul 23, 2009 19:03:48 GMT -5
Krazeeboi,
My issue has not been "putting your mouth" on leaders for that haven't stopped the masses from doing so. But I do feel we must look at each of these ministers' cases one at a time to render the proper judgment. We must also be careful of speculations and what we feel are implications. We must be careful of relying on half truths from supposed inside members and the reports of media especially when we are at a distance from the situation. All I'm saying is the scope in which we can intricately judge as outsiders is very limited since we're not present with these leaders to follow their lives on a daily basis. You can't just clump every failed scenario in the same pile and declare that "it's God's judgment and if they don't get it together something tragic will happen" (isn't this just as bad to say as "touch not mine anointed"?) I can say for JB nowadays God has blessed and opened doors for her since her trial and I pray the same for Paula. The future is what we have to look forward to at this point. But Krazeeboi I truly respect you for you seem to listen to other perspectives which make me more receptive to what you have to say. So in general I do agree that the standards for leadership need to be upheld. Well, I gotta go
You all carry on
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