|
|
Post by Nikkol on Jan 15, 2010 14:40:01 GMT -5
I said .....if you type in google "Black plague in Europe judgment of God" you will find articles that indicate that it was "commonly accepted" as God's punishment.
I said ...What we know is that when ppl have sought truth, they've found Jesus. So with me saying that, are you saying, why would people seek truth? I also wrote about this on a different post about how black ppl were oppressed as well but yet and still we have those that stayed.....
I think we need to separate cursing of ppl vs cursing of a region.....
Europe had the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755 which was mentioned with the wrath of God. Also, it is possible that there has been things said about all of these things. However, what will make media is a small snippet and typically based with a current event rather than an event in the past or an event in the future.
This is why we need to separate cursing of a person with cursing of a region
God.
I don't always know/understand God's ways to know his purpose.....
I've learned that the way God may handle something in one case doesn't mean that that'll be the case all the time. His ways aren't our ways and we don't always know the spiritual implication of everything or the "why" certain things happen the way they do.
God is always revealing himself.....scripture says that Psalm 19:1The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
The MAIN question, which I don't think noone can answer is, is the fact that Pat Robertson said that their was a pact made with the devil told by a missionary wrong? I don't think that any of us can say that it is. We can say how we "feel" but just because we "feel" a certain way doesn't mean that that should be what we base our decision on.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Jan 15, 2010 14:54:13 GMT -5
Another website was talking about Haiti and showed another website listed HEREThe quote that stood out that he pointed out was: The bands of slaves slaughtered every white person they encountered. As their standard, they carried a pike with the carcass of an impaled white baby. Side Note: I love these discussions because it helps me to learn more about things that had this not ever been an issue, I would've never known..... |
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on Jan 15, 2010 16:38:46 GMT -5
A few things here.
To say that Haiti is cursed because they sold their collective soul to the devil in order to gain their independence does not cancel out the evils of colonialism, nor in any way does colonialism justify making a pact with the devil. That cannot be excused or defended. After all, slaves in America experienced slavery even longer than the Haitians and we didn't turn ourselves over to the devil.
Secondly, I'm not exactly getting how a demonic pact for physical independence can be seen as unbiblical. Satan would much rather have you physically free and spiritually bound than the other way around. People can get rich via demonic pacts also, but we don't say that the devil can't do that because the devil doesn't want people rich, but God does.
I hate the fact that Haiti has been in the state that it's been in for so long, not only due to the longstanding negative effects of colonialism but also due to inherent political corruptness, but if the nation was indeed founded on appealing to the powers of darkness to overthrow the French, then it's obvious that there needs to be nationwide repentance so that God will heal their land. Obviously want they wanted (physical freedom) was a good thing, but if they went about it the way they did, then that's the worst possible way they could have done so.
|
|
|
|
Post by livinganewlife on Jan 15, 2010 17:22:59 GMT -5
It amazes me the level of anger African Americans have displayed over NOTHING! ....
Do you all realize that it was BLACK PEOPLE that sold other BLACK PEOPLE into slavery....and that slavery was big business in Europe before they went to Africa.................Do you all realize that the Europeans were in slavery too along with blacks............they were call indentured servants....
Also why is it that Pat Robertson statement is making everyone angry....if I would have come on this BB December 15, 2008 and asked you very same people what are your thoughts on Haiti many of you would have initially thought Voodoo because that is what we (mainstream) associate Haiti with.....
What yall need to be upset about is how in the Hell did all those T.V crews get over to Haiti and why are they able to broadcast live and transmit their stories back to NY through satellite…..How is that I can clearly see Dr. Sunjay Gupta from CNN reporting with a wireless lavaliere microphone attached to his shirt and yet he is reporting that there is no water or electricity to rescue people but CNN got all of their media gear on the ground up and running…..
Not only is CNN over there reporting live but EVERY news media across the world has landed on Haiti and they are all able to report live……………
No one is crying out over the capitalistic culture we live in where getting the story out is more important than recovering human life….
Is it really normal for NBC, CBS, MSNBC and all the other networks to show up with milllions dollars of equipment just to get a story out to keep their RATINGS UP......... but we (general) don't see the flaws in airplanes, helicoptors and ships full of audio and video equipment being broughts into an area that is demolished because the media has feed us to believe that this is normal.........
Who cleared the airstrip so the news media could safely land and transport their gear; how is it that the news media is able to transport generators, camera’s, satellite trucks, solar lighting, water and how are the news reporters fresh and clean everyday reporting from an area that is totally shut down………….
The media has us fighting over verbiage so no one will ask the real questions!
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on Jan 15, 2010 17:27:29 GMT -5
A Prayer for the People of Haiti
by Taylor Burton-Edwards
The seas roar, the earth shakes,
buildings crumble, roofs topple
and walls turn to dust.
Have mercy on the people of Haiti, O God.
Nations watch, alarms sound,
traffic halts, utilities stop,
and news is hard to verify.
Give us compassion to weep with those who weep, O God.
People die, families mourn,
mountains split,
infrastructure and superstructure alike are gone.
Make us swift to help and persistent to rebuild,
not just things and structures, but lives, O God:
Through Christ, the solid Rock. Amen.
Haiti Cries . . . And We Cry With Them
(A prayer as we search through the rubble)
by Safiyah Fosua
Earth shaking
Home breaking
Ground-moved-the-mountain-into-my-way tragedy!
Broken bodies
Broken hearts
Broken lives.
Haiti cries
And we cry with them.
God,
Our hearts are aching as we try to imagine what the daylight brought
To our brothers and sisters in Haiti.
Heal the young eyes that have seen far too much on this day.
Heal the hearts of many who have lost friends, family and a way of life on this day.
Be with those who are missing
And those who are dying outside of the grasp of
Loving hands to hold them
Loving voices to soothe them.
Move us over here from empathy to action
From sympathy to substance
As we contemplate what can be done to help
Today
And many days
Into a forever-changed future.
Amen.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Mar 11, 2010 10:23:13 GMT -5
Here's another thread talking about this same issue....thought I'd share it: Haiti |
|
|
|
Post by anointedteacher on Mar 11, 2010 11:30:44 GMT -5
blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2010/02/18/haitis-pact-with-the-devil-some-haitians-believe-this-too/Haiti’s pact with the devil?
(some Haitians believe this too) posted by Bertin M. Louis, Jr. On January 12, 2010, a 7.0 earthquake devastated Port-au-Prince, Leogane, and other parts of Haiti. The day after this catastrophe, Reverend Pat Robertson, the host of the 700 Club and an influential voice in the American fundamentalist movement, remarked that centuries ago Haitians swore a pact to the Devil in order to gain their freedom from slavery under the French. The moment to which Robertson referred in his comments was the Bwa Kayiman Vodou ceremony that launched the Haitian Revolution (1791-1804). Despite the humanitarian efforts of his charitable organization currently assisting Haitians with earthquake relief, Robertson’s remarks strike many as callous and racist. But missing in some of the responses to those remarks in the midst of this unimaginable tragedy, which include condemnations and historical essays, is an important reality of the contemporary Haitian religious landscape which has been neglected thus far and bears analysis: some Haitians (Haitian Protestants, in particular) also believe that Haiti is cursed.
Evangelical Protestantism is a growing religious movement in Haiti which currently represents a third of the country’s population of over 9 million. Increasing numbers of Haitians, both at home and abroad, practice various forms of Protestant Christianity, such as Pentecostalism and the Baptist, Nazarene, and Methodist faiths. For example, the majority of Haitians in the Bahamas practice Protestant forms of Christianity. In interviews conducted with Haitian Protestants in Nassau, Bahamas in 2005, some of my informants claimed that Haiti “got its freedom the wrong way”—that is, because of the Bwa Kayiman Vodou ceremony that launched the Haitian revolution in 1791, the same Vodou ceremony that Pat Robertson referred to as a “pact with the Devil” in his untimely commentary. Vodou, formed between 1750 and 1790 on the plantations of colonial Haiti, is a creolized African religion that many Haitians currently practice. Vodou was important in the struggle for liberation among enslaved Africans because, as Leslie Desmangles rightly observes, the rituals of Vodou provided the spirit of kinship that fueled the slaves’ revolt against their colonial masters.
Part of the Haitian national narrative well known among Haitians and scholars of Haiti is the Bwa Kayiman Vodou Congress led by Boukman. Boukman was a maroon who escaped from a plantation near Morne Rouge and led a Vodou ceremony that was pivotal to the beginning of the Haitian Revolution (1791-1804). At this ceremony Boukman encouraged enslaved Africans to dismantle the plantation system of Saint Domingue (Colonial Haiti) through the same type of violence that had been wrought upon them. As slaves who produced indigo, tobacco, and, at one point in history, two-fifths of the world’s sugar and half of the world’s coffee, it was not uncommon for slave masters, as Alex Dupuy writes, to “hang a slave by the ears, mutilate a leg, pull teeth out, gash open one’s side and pour melted lard into the incision, or mutilate genital organs. Still others used the torture of live burial, whereby the slave, in the presence of the rest of the slaves who were forced to bear witness, was made to dig his own grave [...]. Women had their sexual parts burned by a smoldering log; others had hot wax splattered over hands, arms, and backs, or boiling cane syrup poured over their heads.” All of these heinous acts were committed to force slaves to perform their duties on plantations.
Within this violent environment, many enslaved Africans resisted and fought against their captors. Therefore, it makes sense that enslaved Africans would reject the religious system (Christianity) forced upon them by slave owners. On August 14, 1791, Boukman uttered these prophetic words at Bwa Kayiman in defiance of the slave owners, which C.L.R. James quotes in The Black Jacobins: “The god who created the sun which gives us light, who rouses the waves and rules the storm, though hidden in the clouds, he watches us. He sees all that the white man does. The god of the white man inspires us with crime, but our god calls upon us to do good works. Our god who is good to us orders us to revenge our wrongs. He will direct our arms and aid us. Throw away the symbol of the god of the whites who has caused us to weep, and listen to the voices of liberty, which speaks in the hearts of us all.” Boukman, along with others, tore the Christian cross from their necks. Six days later, slaves of the Turpin plantation, led by Boukman, indiscriminately massacred every white man, woman, and child they could find. This act of revolt began a general insurrection that would lead to the Haitian Revolution, the first successful slave revolt in the Western Hemisphere that extended the “rights of Man” (liberty, equality, and brotherhood) beyond Europeans and articulated a common humanity and equality embracing all Haitian citizens.
Although the story of Bwa Kayiman inspires many Haitians and other peoples of African descent who share a similar history of bondage (African-Americans, for example), many Haitian Protestants today find the history of the Bwa Kayiman ceremony offensive and believe that this was the exact historical moment when Haiti was “consecrated to the Devil.” Thus, Bwa Kayiman, by extension, ensured a legacy of misery in Haiti that is evidenced by the underdevelopment that grips it today.
This alternative view of Bwa Kayiman is clearly articulated, for example, by Chavannes Jeune, a pastor and evangelist from Les Cayes, Haiti, and a former candidate for the Haitian presidency in 2005. He is also the catalyst for “Haiti for the Third Century,” an interdenominational evangelical organization whose main purpose is to “take Haiti back from the devil and dedicate her to Jesus Christ.” Pastor Chavannes believes that the nation of Haiti is enmeshed in spiritual bondage because “the country was dedicated by a Vodou priest at its liberation” and “has been in bondage to the devil for four generations.” In this interpretation of Bwa Kayiman, Haitian Protestants like Pastor Chavannes view Vodou as a satanic religion, responsible for Haiti’s underdevelopment, continuing governmental corruption, endemic poverty, and probably the recent earthquake as well.
This radical, revisionist view of Haitian history reveals more about Haitian Protestant views with regard to Vodou than it does about why Haiti is so poor, or why Haiti was devastated by an earthquake. The enduring practice of Vodou, in the view of some Haitian Protestants, is the reason why Haiti is so poor, why its economy is in shambles, and why God chose to “punish” the island and its people with an earthquake. In other words, Vodou is the same as worshiping dyab (the Devil). Some Haitian Protestants who hold this view choose to scapegoat Vodou instead of looking at other parts of Haitian history to explain Haiti’s current misery, such as the multimillion franc indemnity Haiti paid to France, beginning in the nineteenth century, so that France wouldn’t invade Haiti after the Haitian Revolution. We can also look at the period when the Duvalier dictatorship (1957-1986) ruled Haiti through fear and violence, while siphoning millions of dollars of taxes and international aid for itself. While Jean-Claude Duvalier, the second “President for Life” during the Duvalier regime, who ruled from 1971-1986, and members of his circle grew fabulously rich, the majority of Haitians slipped deeper into poverty. The percentage of the Haitian population living in extreme poverty rose from 48 percent in 1976 to 81 percent in 1985. Under the Duvaliers, Haiti became the poorest country in the Western hemisphere.
There are numerous problems with the view that Haiti consecrated itself to the Devil more than 200 years ago. First, those Haitian Protestants who believe that Haiti is in bondage to the Devil recast the entire nation of Haiti as a sinful entity that can only be ameliorated through the conversion of the entire nation to Protestant and Pentecostal forms of Christianity. In other words, Haiti can only get itself back on track if every Haitian becomes some type of Protestant Christian. Conversely, this would require that Haitians reject Catholicism and Vodou, the majority religions of Haiti. Second, the view held by many Haitian Protestants that Haiti is cursed, condemns the slaves responsible for Haiti’s liberation, and by extension their descendants, rather than the slave owners who enthralled them and the institution of slavery itself. Thus, this problematic view of Haitian history suggests that slavery in Saint Domingue was a benign institution, or at least that it did not in fact merit the slaves’ revolt. Third, the revisionist history of Haiti as complicit in its own oppression through a “pact with the Devil” downplays the role black people played in making the Haitian revolution the first and only successful slave revolution in history. As Arthur and Dash write, “over the course of an epic 12 year struggle, the slaves defeated the local whites, the forces of the French Crown, a Spanish and a British invasion, and the massive expeditionary force sent by Napoleon Bonaparte,” with immense credit for these victories being due to Toussaint Louverture, the man who quickly emerged as the leader of the black armies.
Finally, the most important aspect of the Haitian revolution that gets lost in the belief that Haiti is “cursed” is that it demonstrated that black people (people of African descent) are human beings with the right to live dignified lives. This is a struggle that Haitians and other people of African descent are clearly still engaged in throughout the globe. The middle passage (where millions of Africans died in transport to the New World), centuries of chattel slavery, and the subsequent psychological and physical violence occurring on plantations tried to disprove the fundamental humanity of the black people who fought for the right to live free and dignified lives.
Haiti was the first country to articulate a general principle of common, unqualified equality for all of its citizens. The fundamental concept of a common humanity also ran deeply through the early Haitian constitutions. This belief is what connects Haitians with other people around the world, as was highlighted by President Barack Obama in a speech he delivered in the aftermath of the earthquake, which has claimed at least 230,000 lives at present. In the coming months, Haitians will continue to struggle to live dignified lives in the midst of destroyed homes, deceased family and friends, infrastructural challenges, and possible waves of infectious diseases that could claim additional lives. The belief that Haiti is cursed will not help Haiti recover from the devastating earthquake, but combating this growing view by placing it in its proper historical context reveals larger issues of structural inequality—forces which prevent Haitians, and the world’s poor, from living dignified lives in the twenty-first century.
|
|
teebee
Junior Member
Posts: 58
|
Post by teebee on Mar 11, 2010 16:10:31 GMT -5
Good points made. Well-written. The knee-jerk, historically illiterate, reactions that many caucasian Christians have toward the circumstances of others is the main reason that so many of them have been scratched off of my list of favorite TV ministries. Is voodoo a problem for Haiti? Yes, it is according to the Christian worldview that there is no God but Jehovah and Jesus is the way to Him. Absolutely, yes, but to disregard ALL of the economic discrimination and history of Haiti over the centuries and throw all of the dysfunction into the lap of the people and the devil is reckless, un-Christian, and wrong. It harkens to the same bologney that we’ve been hearing in this country from these same “Christian” brothers and sisters who want to see our president dead according to Psalm 139, and who REFUSE to see the good that his administration and others are trying to accomplish by muddying the waters with issues that didn’t seem to matter when the great “Christian President Bush” was in office. I wish most of them would shut-up and go educate themselves in history before flapping their gums.
|
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Mar 14, 2010 21:13:10 GMT -5
Strangely... The former president of Haiti said this very same thing... YEARS ago..
|
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on Mar 19, 2010 23:58:53 GMT -5
And I've heard that same thing from Haitians also.
|
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on Apr 23, 2010 20:20:38 GMT -5
I just talking a neighbor a few weeks ago..and he spoke of some things he saw as a child..as his Grandmother was of Haitian descent and practiced Vodou
|
|
