"Woe To The....."

[being quiet]

StillFocused I know exactly where you are coming from....Been there and am still there now and some of it is my fault but alot of it is because of the word that comes out touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm. No one will speak up or out so really it's in God's hand to handle as He will.

[stillfocused]

beingquiet..I have been there and made up my mind that nothing or no one would separate me from the love of God. As far as "touching not my anointed and doing my prophet"..this verse is being misused ...this is a psalm that that speaks of the wonderful things that God had done for Abraham..go back and read that verse starting at Psalm 105:1- 45. Yet, make sure you know the word of God for yourself. Seek forgiveness from them..even if it's not your fault and allow him to heal your wounds and your heart.

[Guest]

SF, the principle of the scripture, I believe, is not misused. We must distinguish scriptural context from scriptural principle. Just because a leader is in error doesn't make them someone we can "touch". I'm not saying we should continuously settle for a low standard in leadership, but in all things we must be careful. However, I will say all of God's people are anointed and set apart. Therefore, I bet not touch any of God's children and do them any harm. Whether they are in the pulpit or not. I will pray for you but not speak irreversible words about you. I will take you aside in private if I have ought against you but never ridicule or show you to be a bad person in public. Love covers a multitude of sin.

[BEING QUIET]

Now see guest I need to say this If you take the person aside they won't be real enough to discuss the issue at hand. so Do you just drop it . How do you handle that?

[stillfocused nsi]

Guest..read the text and then go back to Genesis and read of how the Lord the Kings who not mishandling Abram..but, had improper intentions towards Sarai. All because a half truth was told. I feel the same way you about the mistreatment of any believer. Yet, I heard that particular used time and time again..by Pastors to keep the congregation in check. I understand the principle..we all must careful of how we handle one another and the word of God. Not, being funny how many times have you seen Matthew 18: 15- 17 used to settle a situation..

We are to go to the person first..if that doesn't work..take another party..if that doesn't work take it to the church and if that doesn't work...let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican...most times the first 2 steps are skipped.

[Guest]

stillfocused said:

I understand the principle..we all must careful of how we handle one another and the word of God.

SF, I can't speak about every subjective circumstance, but if we get this core principle, then it'll help us not get in the wrong in proving what is right (even if the other person is in the wrong).

Some things to consider:

As taken from Matthew 18, a trespass and offense can be distinguished. Just because a person offends you doesn't mean they have trespassed against you.

An offense may be subjective while a trespass is deemed as unlawful (that's why witnesses and the church are needed) when things cannot possibly be resolved.

When it comes to leadership in the church (I don't care how much you think it's wrong), it's not your place as an individual to come against that leader. Rather, the church must confront the issue at hand ( not you, singular). Otherwise, you would be in the wrong trying to prove what is right because the bible tells us not to rebuke an elder, singularly that is. This is in referene to accusing him of something. If you feel a leader has wronged you or act cold toward you, then privately go to that leader and tell how you feel. This isn't the same as accusation but it's getting understanding of a personal, subjective issue. When it comes to accusation and it affects the church, however, that church as a whole must deal with it.

Another thing we must understand is that God has a way of dealing with leadership, convicting leadership, and even forgiving leadership. But it takes mature Christians (not saying any of you aren't mature) to see their leader's fault and still be under that leadership. If a leader is unrepentant, the principle of "whatever is in dark will come to light" will be evident. Trust me! Please don't feel you are to follow a leader who deliberately practices sin and doesn't turn from it. At that point, why argue against that leader. Just don't feel obligated to follow corrupted leaders. Simple as that!

When it comes to having fault with anyone, not just leaders, in the church, that's subjective but isn't necessarily a trespass, then privately take that person aside and get an understanding of where that person is coming from. Many times, we only see our perspective and not anyone else's . Other times, people offend us and really have no clue that it was offensive. This life is full of personalities. Once things have been discussed and you guys have an understanding, then forgiveness and understanding can take place. Reconciliation doesn't always mean it's a start of friendship. It's really more a spiritual thing so that, in the spirit, your heart is pure. If differences cannot be resolved, still forgive and move on with your life, because you've done your part (Again, I'm speaking of offense, generally, not tresspass. Jesus gave us the pattern for trespass).

[keita nsi]

PTL, "Guest"!

Your comments are really thoughtful and much appreciated.

I do have at least one question/concern though. In this statement:

Guest said:

...the bible tells us not to rebuke an elder...

are you referring to 1Timothy 5:1 here? If so, I think our studying the context of that scripture might just challenge such a conclusion.

[Guest]

Hello Keita,

Here is an excerpt from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

Directions Concerning Reproofs. A. D. 64.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

Here the apostle gives rules to Timothy, and in him to other ministers, in reproving. Ministers are reprovers by office; it is a part, though the least pleasing part, of their office; they are to preach the word, to reprove and rebuke, 2 Timothy 4:2. A great difference is to be made in our reproofs, according to the age, quality, and other circumstances, of the persons rebuked; thus, and elder in age or office must be entreated as a father; on some have compassion, making a difference, Jude 1:22. Now the rule is, 1. To be very tender in rebuking elders--elders in age, elders by office. Respect must be had to the dignity of their years and place, and therefore they must not be rebuked sharply nor magisterially; but Timothy himself, though an evangelist, must entreat them as fathers, for this would be the likeliest way to work upon them, and to win upon them. 2. The younger must be rebuked as brethren, with love and tenderness; not as desirous, to spy faults or pick quarrels, but as being willing to make the best of them. There is need of a great deal of meekness in reproving those who deserve reproof. 3. The elder women must be reproved, when there is occasion, as mothers. Hosea 2:2, Plead with your mother, plead. 4. The younger women must be reproved, but reproved as sisters, with all purity. If Timothy, so mortified a man to this world and to the flesh and lusts of it, had need of such a caution as this, much more have we.

I understand the literal context that some would take as 'elder' meaning an older man [one with physical years of experiences, maturity, etc.]. Yet, this can apply spiritually also. Elder, in a spiritual context, ought to denote one that is seasoned, mature, and experienced and we should approach them in like manner. The problem today is some people are spiritual 'elders' in a church and really shouldn't be. Just as God has a divine order for respect and submission in the house of God, he has a divine order for qualifying as one well able to carry on the responsibilities of a spiritual 'elder'.

You may or may not disagree, but when it comes to approaching one another as believers, esp. when there is fault, the approaches will be different. This is inevitable (I believe). It isn't divine order for me to speak to a 'father' (both in age or office] in the same way I would a peer, not that I would talk to a peer in any less respect. It's just my approach and mentality in approach may carry a different weight. It's just like in the natural. I will never intentionally confront my sister in a disrespectful way nor would I my mother. However, the approach I have toward my mother would carry a difference in how I appproach my sister. I would never think of myself as standing toe to toe with my mother. Me any my sister may be the same age (both spiritually and naturally, but for me to succumb my mother to me and my sister's level is disrespect and this goes on in some churches. I have actually sat in church meetings where a deacon would stand up and talk back to the pastor and cut him off when a disagreement arose. The pastor ended up telling him to 'Shut Up'. The pastor in this case wasn't wrong. Nothing was wrong with the deacon standing in disagreement, and the pastor didn't come against that, but that doesn't permit one to disrespect the 'elder' (who was also older physically) while getting a point across. It's all about divine order. Alot of times, it's not even about situations that arise but the principles that we uphold in resolving situations. It has nothing to do with control, fear or status of an individual. Just order. Again, one may interpret 'elder' or 'mother' as dealing with biological age, but the principle of the terms have spiritual significance also. I'm a firm believer in understanding spiritual context but I also try to see the spiritual principle in all things. When weighed with other scriptures concerning divine order, respect, honor, and submission, I Timothy 5:1 doesn't carry a deviance one bit.

Also for leaders, divine order is for them to nurture and tend and care for the sheep that they're entrusted with. To violate this divine principle is out of order and out of the will of God. If you feel a pastor has personally wronged you, from a subjective standpoint, then feel free to talk privately with that pastor about the situation (still entreating him as an elder) and hopefully you'll come to an understanding. I know someone who was personally wondering if the pastor had anything against her, and she spoke privately with him and found out that he had no ill will. He actually drew strength from the individual and considered them a spiritual daughter. That was a good experience because understanding came forth between the two individuals. Now, if the pastor or any other person committed a trespass [something that can be objectionably justified as unlawful against a person] then that's where Matthew 18 come into play and that pastor may even need to sit out temporarily (I know, it's not the norm but it is the bible and it has been done in our times).

Again, trespass and offense can be distinguished. I'm inclined to believe that many of us deal with the latter moreso than the first mentioned term. In that case, some of us just need to find time and work out personal differences with ultimate respect for each other although the approaches may differ. This may cut out some of the 'woe to the shepherd' phenonmenon that has popped up. Some [not all] of the 'woe to the shepherds' is simply a need for understanding that both leadership and those that they lead need good relationship to move forward in the things of God.

[keita]

Thanks for responding in such depth!

I'm simply glad to see we agree that the bible does not (as you stated earlier) "tell us not to rebuke an elder", but rather that 1Tim 5:1 is more about Paul instructing Timothy in how such is to be properly done.

[Guest]

Amen Sister. I'm glad to see that we agree.

Have a nice weekend.

[BEING QUIET]

What do you do when you have lost respect for your pastor?

[stillfocused nsi]

Last night..I heard a few things that I have never heard spoken across a platform from a guest Pastor. We all know to pray for our leaders and our Pastors; yet, I have been in the place where I had to my Pastor and tell him some things that were not too easy. It was not pleasing to the hearer or to the one who had to say it. In the beginning he did not receive it because it crossed over into some areas that were a problem in our church. I agree with what you say..but, I often wonder how come people called to intercession..and sometimes they do receive a word from the Lord for the Pastor and have to hold to what they have received. The word lets us know that what God called Ezekiel to be a watchman that he was given the instruction to let the righteous who were beginning to stray; and if he didn't the blook would be on his hands. To one it maybe a trespass to another it maybe an offense..it is not imagined..because the pain is real. Last night a visiting Pastor did 2 altar calls..and one of them was for those who had been by leadership, in a church, by Pastors, and etc..this man humbled himself and ask all those standing for forgiveness..being obedient to the Spirit of God..you could weeping at the altar. And the other was this...he openly rebuked our Pastors and the congregation and didn't know half of us from Adam. Yes, God does have a way of convicting leaders..yet, many are beyond conviction and will not repent. It's funny how the person who has been hurt are expected to live up to the Word..yet, leaders aren't and they are the transgessors. And the reason for this post..the sister was hurting..for 2 years...did not trust any Pastor, and sadly, didn't want anything to do with Church period..as served as an Armourbearer. The Pastors never sought..it's time for us holding our leaders to different standard that says..you can say what you want..do what you want..and we'll pray for you. This is a recipe for disaster..because if a body as whole does turn to God with repentative hearts..and seeking forgiveness from one another and God..the church was falter..I have seen it; and I have seen God remove a church's lampstand..because they did not heed the warnings given them..


Beinquiet...

First, thing you must do..is repent for having those feelings..

Second, begin to pray for your Pastor..and his wife

Third..seek healing from the Lord, and Fourth, be honest with the Lord during this time..because as you do your focus will turn from man to God...

[Nikkol]

A lot of this falls under the falsification of clergy/laity distinction. However, clergy or not, if you see a sword coming and say nothing, the blood will be required on your hands. You can't tell God "Well, he was a clergy and I couldn't do it"....... no scripture for that.

Contextually, the scripture about rebuke not an elder is moreso in reference to older men rather than clergy since the scripture following it is in reference to older women.

Respect should be all around for we are all part of ONE body and no one part of the body is any better than the other but rather just has different responsibilities.



Aside......... I think that what exactly it means to lose respect shoulf be discussed. For I think that it could be easy to confuse lack of respect with other things.

[stillfocused nsi]

Please forgive me folks..I just reread my last post and I left some words and misspelled some words...so, please forgive me !

[krazeeboi]

beingquiet said:

What do you do when you have lost respect for your pastor?

What caused you to lose respect for your pastor?