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Post by Jasmine on Nov 9, 2006 14:04:13 GMT -5
Honestly,
We use new saints as a crutch. if the OLD saints was on the post, and doing what they were supposed to be doing...alot of NEW saints would have far more examples to look at, than just the pastor.
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Post by Jasmine on Nov 9, 2006 14:09:28 GMT -5
How many times have we been exhorted to "Follow me as I follow Christ" ? So, when they take their eyes off Christ..do we still follow them ? We must remember that some are who new to the things of Christ and will follow their Pastors into a pit of rattle snakes if he tells them to. Well if the blind be led by the blind, they both shall fall into the ditch. I think the "follow me as I follow Christ" statement is highly Overated, and over exaggerated too. Our Christian walk is a PERSONAL thing. Is the pastor really saying.. "Follow me, do as I do"? or is the pastor saying.. Follow me.. as in ( Get with me, get with the vision" etc..etc.. |
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Post by enduring4him on Nov 9, 2006 15:05:25 GMT -5
Alright... I'm feeling you on these last two post my sister-you shol right and done hit it right on the head with a capital "H"
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Post by Beck on Nov 9, 2006 15:41:42 GMT -5
How many times have we been exhorted to "Follow me as I follow Christ" ? So, when they take their eyes off Christ..do we still follow them ? We must remember that some are who new to the things of Christ and will follow their Pastors into a pit of rattle snakes if he tells them to. Well if the blind be led by the blind, they both shall fall into the ditch. I think the "follow me as I follow Christ" statement is highly Overated, and over exaggerated too. Our Christian walk is a PERSONAL thing. Is the pastor really saying.. "Follow me, do as I do"? or is the pastor saying.. Follow me.. as in ( Get with me, get with the vision" etc..etc.. How personal really is our christian walk required to be? I think many people use that "personal relationship" as a crutch to not live the life of the exampled christian.. I have heard it over and over and over again when talking to a christian about prayer and fasting, living a life of dedication, fleeing youthful lusts,...they say "well thats your personal relationship, not mine" . I think what goes for one goes for all as relating to what christ requires from us as believers. One thing I always keep in mind is that Pastors are sheep just like the rest of us. they have to answer to the same person we do, there is no grading on the curve because they are "leadership. the moment the people start exalting them and the pastor allows it, is the moment that some things will begin to fall. |
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Post by stillfocused on Nov 9, 2006 15:44:20 GMT -5
There are many Pastors who use that verse of scripture and literally mean for you to follow them as they follow Christ. New believers don't have enough word in them; not know when their Pastors have errored. And whether we like it or not anyone in a leadership position is responsible for what happens to those who follow them.
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Post by Nikkol on Nov 9, 2006 17:06:17 GMT -5
Also with that comes the understanding that even when saints are new, we must always teach them to read the Word and make sure that they are following what the WORD of God says. If you think about it, many unsaved people tend to know a lot about what doesn't seem right... even if they don't really understand much about it. I think that we do a disservice to new saints by giving the impression that because they're new, they won't have any discernment, etc. The HG is still a keeper and will lead you and guide you into ALL truth, as long as you are willing to yield.
And although leadership may be held accountable for what happens to someone, that person is held accountable as well because the excuse "well I was just following my pastor" isn't going to cut it......
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Post by Jasmine on Nov 9, 2006 17:10:54 GMT -5
Well if the blind be led by the blind, they both shall fall into the ditch. I think the "follow me as I follow Christ" statement is highly Overated, and over exaggerated too. Our Christian walk is a PERSONAL thing. Is the pastor really saying.. "Follow me, do as I do"? or is the pastor saying.. Follow me.. as in ( Get with me, get with the vision" etc..etc.. How personal really is our christian walk required to be? I think many people use that "personal relationship" as a crutch to not live the life of the exampled christian.. I have heard it over and over and over again when talking to a christian about prayer and fasting, living a life of dedication, fleeing youthful lusts,...they say "well thats your personal relationship, not mine" . I think what goes for one goes for all as relating to what christ requires from us as believers. One thing I always keep in mind is that Pastors are sheep just like the rest of us. they have to answer to the same person we do, there is no grading on the curve because they are "leadership. the moment the people start exalting them and the pastor allows it, is the moment that some things will begin to fall. the basis of salvation is establishing a personal relationship with Jesus. Please don't miss what I am saying. This walk is very personal. Its personal because Pastor Jones can't walk it for you. You must do it yourself. So when we hear how christians are turning against God because of Pastor so and so missed the mark...I have a problem with that. People have made Pastors (leadership) out to be more than just an example, they have made them to be "the way"..again only JESUS is the way..A pastor can fall just like any saint. We place folks in leaderships on a pedal stool, thinking that they don't sin. I remember how my former pastor used to tell the story how, he had someone come into his office and say " did you hear about Jim Baker, and he said yea, all we can do is pray for the brother. The person in return said, man if Jim Baker can't do it, then I ain't gone make it".. Each and every time my pastor tells this story you can see the disgust in his eyes. (it was funny to me at that time, but I now understand) Its the same kind of disgust I feel when I hear statements like that. Who is Jim Baker? (i know who he is ya'll), Who is anybody that can have you default on your relationship with God, because they messed up? thats Ignorance and unfortunately alot of us saved and sanctified, Holy Ghost filled saints....think the exact same way. We need to get out eyes off man, and place them back on GOD. |
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Post by Jasmine on Nov 9, 2006 17:15:25 GMT -5
There are many Pastors who use that verse of scripture and literally mean for you to follow them as they follow Christ. New believers don't have enough word in them; not know when their Pastors have errored. And whether we like it or not anyone in a leadership position is responsible for what happens to those who follow them. When I was a new believer. I didn't focus on what my pastor was and wasn't doing. I was very much in my word, trying to satisfy the hunger that was deep inside of me. I was on a mission to let folks know that I was changed, I had been saved and i was never going to be the same. If the pastor was in error back during that time..I wouldn't have cared because I knew I wasn't all well put together my self. I knew I was in the making and one day I could be example to other folks. Nikkol pretty much summed up with the additional responses about being a new in christ. We don't give "babes" enough credit. |
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Post by stillfocused on Nov 9, 2006 23:51:18 GMT -5
Nikkol and Jasmine..both of your points are valid. Yet, let us remember Jim Jones..how many people died because they listen to a man and followed his example and drank koolade laced with poison. Not every one is strong even to want to follow Christ that you were determined to. We must admit there are some pretty messed up teachings out there on spiritual authority. " Submit to the Pastor as he has watch over your soul"..and sadly alot of it a little Bible mixed up with the fleshly desires of men. And it's not always the case that the person's eyes is on leadership..sometimes leaders place themselves on pedestals requiring that you look to them before you make a decision. We all know that one's focus should be on the Lord and him. Yet, we have not been saved all our lives and even though we were in church; going every Sunday, we sat there hanging on every word that the Pastor said. And a new believer I realized how little I knew; even though I had grown up in church all my life..and it was not until I was baptized with the Holy Spirit did the words on the pages of the Bible become alive to me. I am not knocking new believers and saying that they don't have any discernment. The Bible states how they can hear unless a preacher is sent ....so, like it or not no one is excluded from their lives being scrutized and that includes leaders and laity alike.
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Post by stillfocused on Nov 10, 2006 0:11:02 GMT -5
I am not sure how many of you are aware of that another well known Pastor has been asked to resign from the church he started because of sexual immoral behavior. It was not the believers that brought him down..it was a unsaved man. Who did not know who this man was and when he found out he that this man was the Pastor of a large church..he was got upset and told he side of the story. Some of what the Pastor has admitted was true and some untrue..
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Post by livinganewlife on Nov 10, 2006 10:29:21 GMT -5
Is our walk really that personal or are we "read" of men?
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Post by stillfocused on Nov 10, 2006 12:23:46 GMT -5
I believe we are to have personal relationship with Jesus Christ; as we take on his image and I also believe that we are to be living epistles. Other do "read" watch our lives often times when we are not aware of it.
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Post by livinganewlife on Nov 10, 2006 13:00:21 GMT -5
Our walk with Christ is very personal as I am the only one who can accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.... however, there is a responsibility once I accept Christ and that is to live as Christ did and to be an example of Christ.....
I am reminded of my grandfather and he would always say the reason why he was so strict in his teachings and walked circumspect is because he realized that "he" maybe the Only Jesus that some people may see......
It is our lifestyle and sometimes conversations that assist in drawing others to Christ as well as away from Christ.....
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Post by Beck on Nov 10, 2006 13:05:37 GMT -5
I think that some people use the personal relationship with Christ to justify sinful ways..as I said before, they turn the personal acceptance of christ into a personal standard.. thats where I believe some error. the standard of living and christianity is universal, the standard of salvation is universal. But some take it and say " well thats your thing, thats not mine"..that bothers my spirit big time... pray for me..lol
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Post by enduring4him on Nov 10, 2006 14:59:36 GMT -5
Personal enough that when we stand before our maker the excuse of "well, they, he, she, my sister, my brother, my pastor..." wasn't eating the whole roll.
Let's be real-when you stand before Christ on judgement day it will be you and HIM that's it-so if the bible states that, then aren't we to live as though we are standing before him everyday?
Yes, we are to exhort one another to "do the book" but there's an old saying... "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it" at some point in your life, whether you are a babe in Christ, a mature saint, backslidden, etc. it will ultimetly be "your" decision as to how important Christ is too you.
How important is your walk to you as far as living for HIM is concerned, how important is it too you that you don't put a stumbling block in your sister or brother way, how important is it too you when and if you do fall, repentance is at the forefront of your mind, how important is it too you that you are a living example-working and walking out your soul salvation on a daily basis...how important is it too you to make it into glory on judgement day??
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