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Post by krazeeboi on Apr 8, 2007 21:07:59 GMT -5
The question is pretty self-explanatory. But for a little background: I was participating in a discussion on another message board, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost came up. I said, " The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a real experience and is a necessity for victorious Christian living." In response, another poster said, "It is good to have the baptism of the Holy Ghost w/ the evidence of speaking iin tongues. Yes it is empowering. But there are Christians who live victoriously and who have NEVER spoken in tongues once!! So I vehemently disagree with that statement."
Thoughts and comments?
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Post by Beck on Apr 9, 2007 7:16:32 GMT -5
It all depends on what you qualify as a victorious life. ALL early christians spoke in tongues as the spirit of God gave utterance. Acts 2:1-11 shows tongues as the sign of the Disciples being baptized by the holyghost, Peter later on explains that this was the fulfillment of the prophesy by Joel..."God puring out his spirit upon all flesh". when Cornelius house "gentiles" received the holyghost peter reported it on this wise...And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning" (Acts 11:15). Speaking in tongues is the only sign that both Acts 2 and Acts 10 have in common, but it alone was enough to convince Peter that the Gentiles had received the Pentecostal experience. The Ephesians spoke in tongues as well "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied" (Acts 19:6).
Acts the 8th chapter shows that you can be filled with joy, be baptized and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, and still not have the holyghost. using the passage in Acts 11 as a reference to how they identified a spirit filled believer it is safe to say that tongues where the sign in which the samaritians showed in order for the apostles to know they received the spirit.
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Post by giantsdodie on Apr 9, 2007 8:38:51 GMT -5
Im gonna let this one roll on a bit before I comment... he he he ....
but I will say this. You CANNOT live as victorious a christian life as possible without operating in the gifts that GOD has made avalable to live that victorious life.
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Post by ybrown on Apr 9, 2007 11:26:07 GMT -5
The Church always seems to place the most emphasis on the least of the gifts, which is temporal and imperfect in light of the greatest, which is eternal and perfect. Of all the tens of thousands of conversions in the Book of Acts, tongues are mentioned only three times and I Corinthians 12 explains why. Not every part of "the body," needs the same gift. 1Co 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19
And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20
But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21
And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. The "more excellent way," seems to be totally ignored when seeking to know one's spiritual condition. Spiritual gifts are for a purpose and a season; they will not remain forever. Once the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. Do you speak with 'unknown tongues,' has now become by far a most reliable sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit and how close to God one is then the perfect ‘more excellent way,’ which is revealed in I Corinthians 13. We remain children in this regard. |
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 9, 2007 11:27:43 GMT -5
ybrown,
You just opened another can of worms with that, as many believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and the gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 are not the same.
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Post by ybrown on Apr 9, 2007 11:58:58 GMT -5
ybrown, You just opened another can of worms with that, as many believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and the gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 are not the same. Then let's have a look at that can of worms. I know that some teach that there are two types of tongues; a quiet, personal prayer language and another to edify the church aloud. I know that this can deduced, but I simply ask where is the scripture to support this? This is what I do know: One type is found in Acts 2 and a different type seems to be spoken of in I Corinthians 14. Yet, the Greek word ("glossa") for "tongues" in both chapters is exactly the same. No matter how we look at it, tongues is a language that is understood by the speaker, whether it's in Acts or I Corinthians. So I don't see the idea of two different types of "tongues" as scriptural, but more a "reading into" scripture what may not be there. I am more than happy to discuss and to let the word and Word unfold, however to show otherwise if that be the case.  |
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Post by Beck on Apr 9, 2007 12:37:26 GMT -5
here a summary of 1st Cor 12 thru 14
(1) Speaking in tongues is a normal part of the New Testament church. Paul spoke in tongues, encouraged other believers to do likewise, gave instructions for the proper use of tongues, and commanded the church not to forbid tongues.
(2) Speaking in tongues is the same phenomenon in I Corinthians as in Acts. The Greek word is the same in both books. Paul talked about literal languages as in Acts 2, not unintelligible, ecstatic gibberish (I Corinthians 13:1).
(3) In Acts, speaking in tongues is the initial sign of the Spirit baptism, but in I Corinthians we find that tongues have two additional purposes. Specifically, speaking in tongues has continuing value for edification of the individual in personal devotion and for edification of the church as a whole when interpreted.
(4) A public message in tongues has little benefit unless it is interpreted.
(5) Tongues are very beneficial in personal devotion.
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Post by Beck on Apr 9, 2007 12:45:55 GMT -5
ybrown, You just opened another can of worms with that, as many believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues and the gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 are not the same. Then let's have a look at that can of worms. I know that some teach that there are two types of tongues; a quiet, personal prayer language and another to edify the church aloud. I know that this can deduced, but I simply ask where is the scripture to support this? This is what I do know: One type is found in Acts 2 and a different type seems to be spoken of in I Corinthians 14. Yet, the Greek word ("glossa") for "tongues" in both chapters is exactly the same. No matter how we look at it, tongues is a language that is understood by the speaker, whether it's in Acts or I Corinthians. So I don't see the idea of two different types of "tongues" as scriptural, but more a "reading into" scripture what may not be there. I am more than happy to discuss and to let the word and Word unfold, however to show otherwise if that be the case. Im not sure if churches teach two types of tongues rather than 2 different experiences. One the initial sign of the spirit, and the other the gift of tongues. neither is a sign of the Holyghost abiding constantly anyway. The first is the initial sign, while the other is a gift.."gifts and calling come without repentance" I have seen some folks speak in tongues and still live a sinful life.. How is this possible? Because they are like the corinth church.. having faith in the gifts, and not having the love of God. the only two tongues I have seen the scripture talk about is Tongues of men and of angels... but its useless if it isnt with Love. |
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Post by ybrown on Apr 9, 2007 13:53:47 GMT -5
here a summary of 1st Cor 12 thru 14 (1) Speaking in tongues is a normal part of the New Testament church. Paul spoke in tongues, encouraged other believers to do likewise, gave instructions for the proper use of tongues, and commanded the church not to forbid tongues. I agree. [/size][/quote] This is so good you shoulda' said it twice! The word "unknown" in 1 Corinthians 14:2" was added by translators. That's why in the written word " unknown" appears italicized. I see these as one and the same (initial sign and later use). Absolutely! As I believe all gifts are. How moreso true this is for the most important and perfect gift - agape love.  |
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Post by ybrown on Apr 9, 2007 14:14:52 GMT -5
Im not sure if churches teach two types of tongues rather than 2 different experiences. One the initial sign of the spirit, and the other the gift of tongues. neither is a sign of the Holyghost abiding constantly anyway. The first is the initial sign, while the other is a gift.."gifts and calling come without repentance" I have seen some folks speak in tongues and still live a sinful life.. How is this possible? Because they are like the corinth church.. having faith in the gifts, and not having the love of God. Elder Beck, do you see the initial sign as something different and apart from the gift? From Scripture I see them as one and the same. I see that all gifts, no matter what they are, are supernaturally imparted upon the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers as the Father gives them, whether they're gifts of tongues, interpretation or healing. Some may not know the imparted gift until they go and use it. lol. |
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Apr 9, 2007 15:26:00 GMT -5
Im not sure if churches teach two types of tongues rather than 2 different experiences. One the initial sign of the spirit, and the other the gift of tongues. neither is a sign of the Holyghost abiding constantly anyway. The first is the initial sign, while the other is a gift.."gifts and calling come without repentance" I have seen some folks speak in tongues and still live a sinful life.. How is this possible? Because they are like the corinth church.. having faith in the gifts, and not having the love of God. Elder Beck, do you see the initial sign as something different and apart from the gift? From Scripture I see them as one and the same. I see that all gifts, no matter what they are, are supernaturally imparted upon the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers as the Father gives them, whether they're gifts of tongues, interpretation or healing. Some may not know the imparted gift until they go and use it. lol. I am only on break at work, but I love the additions to this post. Yes, I have been taught that they were two seperate things and I will hopefully ( ) elaborate when I get home this evening. You two are da bomb! |
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Post by giantsdodie on Apr 9, 2007 18:26:09 GMT -5
Where does the scripture say that tongues is the LEAST of gifts ?? The scripture does not say this. People say this because it is last on the list. However if I give you a list of ingredients to bake a cake..
Flour
Milk
Eggs
Sugar
Butter
Now because Butter is last on the list does that mean it the least important ingredient in making a cake ?
Personally while we know that Love is the greatest gift and it is the gift through which all other gifts operate it does not lessen the need and the use of all the other gifts.
We must also remember these are gifts given by GOD to the believer AND to the Body of Christ. If God gave them how can we say which is of lesser importance?
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Post by giantsdodie on Apr 9, 2007 18:27:32 GMT -5
There are two ministries of the same gift. One is to the Body of Christ and One is the personal prayer language of the believer. The scripture shows both clearly in I Cor 14.
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Post by giantsdodie on Apr 9, 2007 18:33:22 GMT -5
This is an excerpt from the Holy Spirit Seminar that was out one of our church retreats. Read and Enjoy.
The Gift of Tongues
The Holy Spirit is the one who gives gifts unto the believer. Even as God the Father gave us the gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ and Jesus gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit to enable us to be empowered to live the Christian life the Holy Spirit did not show up empty handed either. The scripture declares that it is the Spirit of God that delivers these gifts.
I Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
In this scripture we have highlighted the phrases “every man”. The Holy Ghost gives these particular gifts to EVERY man. The scripture also declares that He gives these gifts to every man SEVERALLY. So everyone has more than ONE gift given to them by the Will of the Holy Spirit. I would like to make it clear these are not ministry gifts given to the Body of Christ. These are given by the Holy Spirit to every single believer. There are specific ministry gifts given to the Body of Christ that are given by the Lord Jesus.
The reason this is being pointed out is because there is an errant belief in the Body of Christ that it is not the will of God for every believer to speak in tongues. This is not so. It is the will of God for every single born again believer to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit WITH the Evidence of speaking in other tongues.
What is Speaking in Tongues/Praying in the Spirit?
First we must establish a foundation for what “speaking in other tongues “is. Lets examine Acts 2:1-11
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
The disciples were Jews all from the area of Galilee. Yet when they spoke the wonderful works of God to the multitude that were gather men heard these words in their own native tongues. The common language of that day was Greek and the disciples spoke Hebrew as well. However these men heard languages in Egyptian, Libyan, Arabian, Italian, and localized dialects like those of the Cretes and the Medes.
The disciples did not know these languages naturally but they were able to speak them supernaturally as the Spirit of God gave them the utterance (or gave them the divine ability to do so; Acts 2:4)
Scripture calls this speaking in an unknown tongue. It is a language that is unknown to the person speaking it. It is not a language they know because it is their native tongue or they have learned in school or through other people. It is a language birthed BY the Holy Spirit. Speaking in an unknown tongue is also called “praying in the Spirit.” This can be found in I Cor 14:14a. (AMP)
14For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays
So scripture declares that speaking in or praying in an unknown tongue is EXACTLY the same thing as praying in the Spirit. This phrase is also found in the Bible as praying in the Holy Ghost.
Jude 20
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Many doctrines and organizations teach that it is not the desire of God for everyone to speak in tongues. This is a falsehood based on a misinterpretation of scripture. The scripture reference that is misinterpreted is I Corinthians 12:30.
I Corinthians 12:30-Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
The problem with this interpretation is that this scripture is NOT speaking of the gifts given to the believer. Remember earlier in our text we declared that the Ministry gifts to the church are given by the Lord JESUS. This list of gifts is different from the list of gifts given earlier in I Corinthians 12. This scripture is taken out of the context in which it is being spoken and that’s why it is misinterpreted.
I Cor 12:29,30
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Notice this discourse starts out speaking about apostles, prophets and teachers. Although we are all called to members of the Body of Christ we are not all called to be in the ministry serving as apostles, prophets and teachers. Here in Ephesians 4 we see where it is JESUS who sets these gifts in the church.
Ephesians 4:8-11
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
The discourse in I Corinthians 12 is speaking about apostles, and prophets and teachers, the ministry gifts to the CHURCH not to the individual believer. There is a ministry gift of tongues given to the church to edify the Body of Christ. Not every minister operates in this particular gift. I Cor. 12:30 is speaking of ministry gifts given by the Lord Jesus, not individual gifts given by the Holy Spirit to the believer.
Does God want every believer to speak in tongues? YES He does. He promised it in the Old Testament in the book of Isaiah. God said that the rebellious house of Israel would be taught by those that spoke with stammering lips and another tongue.
Isaiah 28:11
11No, but [the Lord will teach the rebels in a more humiliating way] by men with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people [says Isaiah, and teach them His lessons].
Jesus said that this sign would follow those that BELIEVE.
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
The Word then reveals that this is a sign that will follow them that BELIEVE. That means all believers. Every single believer. Not a few, not some. Everyone that BELIEVES in Jesus as the Christ the Son of the Living God and accepts Him as Lord and Savior for the forgiveness of sins, should at some point in their walk operate in the gift of speaking in tongues.
In the New Testament every time someone was baptized with the Holy Spirit they spoke in tongues (Acts 2:1-4, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6). This is why tongues is one of the evidences of being baptized in the Holy Ghost. The second evidence according the Word is prophecy.
Remember earlier we determined that “ praying in the Holy Ghost “ and “ speaking in tongues “ are the exact same thing. In the book of Ephesians we have a command from God that many Christians are familiar with.
Ephesians 6
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Here God instructs us to put on the full armor of God. This is not a suggestion it is a command from the Lord. In verse 18 He instructs us to pray ALWAYS in the Spirit. Now how can God command you to ALWAYS do something, but not give you the ability to do it? He can’t. He must provide the ability to pray in Spirit/speak in tongues for us to obey His word and His direction.
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Post by krazeeboi on Apr 9, 2007 22:20:14 GMT -5
OK yall, we've gone off on a REAL tangent here. I do not mean for this to turn into a discussion of tongues as initial evidence or tongues as being the least of the gifts (which isn't substantiated biblically anyway). This is primarily about the purpose and meaning of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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