Heresay In The Cathedral

[ybrown]

livinganewlife said:

There maybe some legitamacy to this argument but what does Jesus means when he says:

Matthew 7: 20 - 23
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If everyone is Saved and enters Heaven; who is Jesus speaking too?

Who are those that will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

Everyone is not saved all at once and not everyone inherits the Kingdom. That is where God’s longsuferring and patience comes in.

We, believers are the only ones that inherit the Kingdom. We are His special ones who He has called now in this age. Christ is the savior of all men, but believers hold a special place. We can understand this by reading 1 Timothy 4:9-11:

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)

The Kingdom, I believe is for the “especially those who believe”. That is us.

Matthew 7:20-23, however is talking about believers. Now this is where we need to clarify something. Anytime the bible talks about believers, it is invariable talking about TRUE believers. When I say that believers will inherit the Kingdom, I’m talking about true believers. Not the fakers. Not the ones who profess Christ with their lips and then go one to live for themselves. Not them.

Look at verse 22. It is talking specifically about people that prophesied in the Lords name, cast out devils, and performed many other seemingly wonderful works in the Lords name.

These are NOT the acts of unbelievers. Have you ever seen an unbeliever prophesy in the Lords name? Cast out devils in the Lords name? Do wonderful works in the Lords name? Strive to enter in by the strait gate?

Now take into consideration this same subject recorded in Luke 13:

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Here you see Jesus saying to these same people strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Therefore only TRUE believers will inherit the Kingdom. God truly knows the heart and He wants no part of carnal man, no matter if its from the believer or unbeliever.

To the carnal man He will say, depart from me. Our vain workings are nothing but filthy rags. We can try to fake as much as we want, but in the end we can’t and won’t fool God.

Those are the ones who inherit the Kingdom.

[ybrown]

electladynb said:

A few points:

1. Context of scriptures is important. We can basically make the scriptures say anything or everything we would like. But without the surrounding scriptures, we lose the main goal of the scripture

2. When questioning why the church talks about hell, one must look at the world today. Hell was discussed in scripture and there is nothing particularly that states that hell was NOT discussed. Additionally, much of the preaching was based on the fact that they had killed Jesus and/or were around during the time when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. They had first hand knowledge while we don't and therefore have to rely on faith to believe that it happened.

going back to read some more and will continue to add more points

Yes, context is important in all of scripture. So is not adding to or subtracting from scripture, as I will show how we twist scripture in my next post.

[Jasmine]

ybrown said:

livinganewlife said:

There maybe some legitamacy to this argument but what does Jesus means when he says:

Matthew 7: 20 - 23
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If everyone is Saved and enters Heaven; who is Jesus speaking too?

Who are those that will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

Everyone is not saved all at once and not everyone inherits the Kingdom. That is where God’s longsuferring and patience comes in.

We, believers are the only ones that inherit the Kingdom. We are His special ones who He has called now in this age. Christ is the savior of all men, but believers hold a special place. We can understand this by reading 1 Timothy 4:9-11:

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)

The Kingdom, I believe is for the “especially those who believe”. That is us.

Matthew 7:20-23, however is talking about believers. Now this is where we need to clarify something. Anytime the bible talks about believers, it is invariable talking about TRUE believers. When I say that believers will inherit the Kingdom, I’m talking about true believers. Not the fakers. Not the ones who profess Christ with their lips and then go one to live for themselves. Not them.

Look at verse 22. It is talking specifically about people that prophesied in the Lords name, cast out devils, and performed many other seemingly wonderful works in the Lords name.

These are NOT the acts of unbelievers. Have you ever seen an unbeliever prophesy in the Lords name? Cast out devils in the Lords name? Do wonderful works in the Lords name? Strive to enter in by the strait gate?

Now take into consideration this same subject recorded in Luke 13:

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Here you see Jesus saying to these same people strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Therefore only TRUE believers will inherit the Kingdom. God truly knows the heart and He wants no part of carnal man, no matter if its from the believer or unbeliever.

To the carnal man He will say, depart from me. Our vain workings are nothing but filthy rags. We can try to fake as much as we want, but in the end we can’t and won’t fool God.

Those are the ones who inherit the Kingdom.

There is no classification between "true" believers and believers in the bible. If you are not a believer, according to the bible, then you are either an unbeliever, or a hypocrite.

And the bible specifically states that people who honor him with their lips, and heart is far from him are hypocrites.

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Now whats interesting is this:

Matthew24:42-51

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


What is appoint him his portion?


Also, has anybody ever noticed how the 8 woes, which deals specifically with hypocrites states" They already have their reward?

[livinganewlife]

ybrown said:

livinganewlife said:

There maybe some legitamacy to this argument but what does Jesus means when he says:

Matthew 7: 20 - 23
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If everyone is Saved and enters Heaven; who is Jesus speaking too?

Who are those that will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

Everyone is not saved all at once and not everyone inherits the Kingdom. That is where God?s longsuferring and patience comes in.

We, believers are the only ones that inherit the Kingdom. We are His special ones who He has called now in this age. Christ is the savior of all men, but believers hold a special place. We can understand this by reading 1 Timothy 4:9-11:

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (KJV)

The Kingdom, I believe is for the ?especially those who believe?. That is us.

Matthew 7:20-23, however is talking about believers. Now this is where we need to clarify something. Anytime the bible talks about believers, it is invariable talking about TRUE believers. When I say that believers will inherit the Kingdom, I?m talking about true believers. Not the fakers. Not the ones who profess Christ with their lips and then go one to live for themselves. Not them.

Look at verse 22. It is talking specifically about people that prophesied in the Lords name, cast out devils, and performed many other seemingly wonderful works in the Lords name.

These are NOT the acts of unbelievers. Have you ever seen an unbeliever prophesy in the Lords name? Cast out devils in the Lords name? Do wonderful works in the Lords name? Strive to enter in by the strait gate?

Now take into consideration this same subject recorded in Luke 13:

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Here you see Jesus saying to these same people strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Therefore only TRUE believers will inherit the Kingdom. God truly knows the heart and He wants no part of carnal man, no matter if its from the believer or unbeliever.

To the carnal man He will say, depart from me. Our vain workings are nothing but filthy rags. We can try to fake as much as we want, but in the end we can?t and won?t fool God.

Those are the ones who inherit the Kingdom.

Are there various levels of the Kingdom?

A kingdom for believers and a Kingdom for none believers?

I am a little confused as to the distinction between those who believe and those who don't believe.

Those who believe will inherit the kingdom (eternal life with Jesus) and those who don't believe will inherit?

[Jasmine]

Revelation 21:8- specially states what happens with unbelievers

[livinganewlife]

jasmine said:

Revelation 21:8- specially states what happens with unbelievers

Not according to the everyone goes to Heaven theory!!!!!

Based on the doctrine of inclusion what is the distinction between a believer and a non believer???

How is eternal life different for the believer versus eternal life for the non believer?

[Jasmine]

livinganewlife said:

jasmine said:

Revelation 21:8- specially states what happens with unbelievers

Not according to the everyone goes to Heaven theory!!!!!

Based on the doctrine of inclusion what is the distinction between a believer and a non believer???

How is eternal life different for the believer versus eternal life for the non believer?

I'd have those answers for you, if I actually believed in the inclusion theory. now if you want my answers based on what the bible says according to its scriptures and not pearsons inclusion doctrine..I'd glady answer.

but other than that..maybe the one's that actually believe this could enlighten..oops wrong word. could inform us of the difference.

[ybrown]

The words in red are not Jesus’ words from a red-letter edition Bible. They have been added to match up with the gospel that is typically taught today in the church.

The words that have been crossed out are in these Bible verses but do not match up with the religious Gospel.

I can only post some scriptures at a time since there are so many and compiling the list with all the formatting takes a lot of time. Hence this only Part 1 of 2.

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all some, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6.

The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over all some. Psalms 103:19

God works all some things after the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1:11

God will have all some men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4

The Lord canst doall some things, and almost no purpose of His can be thwarted. Job 42:2

Someall things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ, reconciling some people the world to Himself, not counting most of their trespasses against them. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

He made him who knew no sin to be sin on some people’s our behalf, that some we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

Some of whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in seas and in all deep. Psalms 135:6

Almost nothing is too difficult for the Lord, the God of all flesh. Jeremiah 32:27

With God some all things are possible. Matthew 19:26

Some of the things impossible with men are possible with God. Luke 18:27

Some of whatever word the Lord speaks will be performed. Ezekiel 12:25

Some of that which is decreed by the Lord will be done. Daniel 11:36

God has spoken, He has purposed, and Hehopefully won’t will not change His mind, nor hopefully will He turn from it. Jeremiah 4:28

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; some of it shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing some of what He desires, and without succeeding in some of the matter for which He sent it. Isaiah 55:11

God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that some folks we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him, but He failed John 3:17

The Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world, but He failed. 1 John 4:14

We have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of some all men, especially [Greek: “malista” = most of all, not “only”] of limited only to believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of law and grace, and truth. John 1:14

The Lord has made some things everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does almost everything according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and almost no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, “What hast Thou done”; Daniel 4:35

Some thingseverything God does will remain forever; there is almost nothing to add to it and there is almost nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that some men should fear be in awe of Him. Eccl. 3:14

The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so some of it has happened, and just as I have planned so some of it will stand. Isaiah 14:24

The Lord has both purposed and performed some of what He spoke concerning the inhabitants. Jeremiah 51:12

The Lord has done some of what He purposed; He has accomplished some of His word, which He commanded from days of old. Lam. 2:17

The Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate most of it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back? Isaiah 14:27

[/color]Some of His purpose will be established, and He will accomplish some of all His good pleasure. Isaiah 46:10 [/color]

God shall magnify Himself, sanctify Himself, and make Himself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that He is the almost successful Lord. Ezekiel 38:23

The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the almost successful Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14

All the earth will be filled with the glory of the almost successful Lord. Numbers 14:20-21

He who forms mountains and creates the wind and declares to man what are His thoughts, He who makes dawn into darkness and treads on the high places of the earth, The almost successful Lord God of hosts is His name. Amos 4:13

From Him and through Him and to Him are some all things. To Him besome of the glory forever Amen. Romans. 11:36

There is One God and Father of all who is over some all and through some all and in some all. Ephesians 4:6

Some all live to Him. Luke 20:38

No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone who chooses to believe to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Luke 10:21-22

In Abrahamsome of all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Genesis 12:3

A man can receive nothing unless he chooses to believe it has been given him from heaven. John 3:27
The Son gives life tothose who believe whom He wishes Greek: wills.John 5:21

God gave Jesus authority over some of all mankind, that to some all whom God hast given Him, He may give eternal life. John 17:2

Some of the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and some of those who hear shall live. John 5:25

God gives life to some of the dead and calls into being some of that which does not exist. Romans 4:17

This is the will of Him who sent Jesus, that of all that the Father has given the Son He losemost nothing. John 6:39

No one can come to Christ unless he chooses to believe the Father who sent Him draws Greek: drags him. John 6:44

No one can come to Christ unless he chooses to believe it has been granted him from the Father. John 6:65

Because Jesus was lifted up from the earth, He will draw Greek: drag someall men to Himself. John 12:32

Jesus was delivered up against God’s wishes by the predetermined plan and the foreknowledge of God, and nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men. Acts 2:23

Paul, along with James, John, Peter, and Jesus, was a
chosen instrument of the Lord’s to bear His name before the Gentiles. Acts 9:15

God has granted to some of the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. Acts 11:18

Man opens his own The Lord opens the heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, with some being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23-24

While we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for some of the ungodly. Romans 5:6

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for some of us. Romans 5:8

While we were enemies, some we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, some we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

The free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one [Adam] the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to some of the many. Romans 5:15

As through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to some all men. Romans 5:18

As through the one man's [Adam's] disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One some of the many will be made Righteous. Romans 5:19

The law came in that the transgression might decrease increase; but where sin decreased increased, grace abounded too much all the more. Romans 5:20

The creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, not but because of Him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:20-21

God causes some all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

Whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among some many brethren. Romans 8:29

God is sometimes for us. Romans 8:31

God is the one who justifies if we believe. Romans 8:33

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but not just on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

He has mercy on those who believe and do good works whom He desires, and He hardens those who don’t whom He desires. Romans 9:18

God has shut up some all men Most men have shut themselves up in disobedience that He may show judgment to them all mercy to all. Romans 11:32

Most men no one can resist His will. Romans 9:19

The potter has a right over some of the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor. Romans 9:21

[livinganewlife]

ybrown said:

[
Everyone is not saved all at once and not everyone inherits the Kingdom. That is where God’s longsuferring and patience comes in.

Are you saying that those who aren't saved in this life will have another chance to get saved, sorta like reincarnation?

I am not clear on where the long suffering and patience takes place.....

I know some folks who died and they didn't believe in Jesus or God, is God going to give them a chance somewhere else?

[Jasmine]

ybrown said:

The words in red are not Jesus’ words from a red-letter edition Bible. They have been added to match up with the gospel that is typically taught today in the church.

The words that have been crossed out are in these Bible verses but do not match up with the religious Gospel.

I can only post some scriptures at a time since there are so many and compiling the list with all the formatting takes a lot of time. Hence this only Part 1 of 2.

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all some, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6.

The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over all some. Psalms 103:19

God works all some things after the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1:11

God will have all some men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4

The Lord canst doall some things, and almost no purpose of His can be thwarted. Job 42:2

Someall things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ, reconciling some people the world to Himself, not counting most of their trespasses against them. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

He made him who knew no sin to be sin on some people’s our behalf, that some we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

Some of whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in seas and in all deep. Psalms 135:6

Almost nothing is too difficult for the Lord, the God of all flesh. Jeremiah 32:27

With God some all things are possible. Matthew 19:26

Some of the things impossible with men are possible with God. Luke 18:27

Some of whatever word the Lord speaks will be performed. Ezekiel 12:25

Some of that which is decreed by the Lord will be done. Daniel 11:36

God has spoken, He has purposed, and Hehopefully won’t will not change His mind, nor hopefully will He turn from it. Jeremiah 4:28

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; some of it shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing some of what He desires, and without succeeding in some of the matter for which He sent it. Isaiah 55:11

God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that some folks we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him, but He failed John 3:17

The Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world, but He failed. 1 John 4:14

We have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of some all men, especially [Greek: “malista” = most of all, not “only”] of limited only to believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of law and grace, and truth. John 1:14

The Lord has made some things everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does almost everything according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and almost no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, “What hast Thou done”; Daniel 4:35

Some thingseverything God does will remain forever; there is almost nothing to add to it and there is almost nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that some men should fear be in awe of Him. Eccl. 3:14

The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so some of it has happened, and just as I have planned so some of it will stand. Isaiah 14:24

The Lord has both purposed and performed some of what He spoke concerning the inhabitants. Jeremiah 51:12

The Lord has done some of what He purposed; He has accomplished some of His word, which He commanded from days of old. Lam. 2:17

The Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate most of it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back? Isaiah 14:27

[/color]Some of His purpose will be established, and He will accomplish some of all His good pleasure. Isaiah 46:10 [/color]

God shall magnify Himself, sanctify Himself, and make Himself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that He is the almost successful Lord. Ezekiel 38:23

The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the almost successful Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14

All the earth will be filled with the glory of the almost successful Lord. Numbers 14:20-21

He who forms mountains and creates the wind and declares to man what are His thoughts, He who makes dawn into darkness and treads on the high places of the earth, The almost successful Lord God of hosts is His name. Amos 4:13

From Him and through Him and to Him are some all things. To Him besome of the glory forever Amen. Romans. 11:36

There is One God and Father of all who is over some all and through some all and in some all. Ephesians 4:6

Some all live to Him. Luke 20:38

No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone who chooses to believe to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Luke 10:21-22

In Abrahamsome of all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Genesis 12:3

A man can receive nothing unless he chooses to believe it has been given him from heaven. John 3:27
The Son gives life tothose who believe whom He wishes Greek: wills.John 5:21

God gave Jesus authority over some of all mankind, that to some all whom God hast given Him, He may give eternal life. John 17:2

Some of the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and some of those who hear shall live. John 5:25

God gives life to some of the dead and calls into being some of that which does not exist. Romans 4:17

This is the will of Him who sent Jesus, that of all that the Father has given the Son He losemost nothing. John 6:39

No one can come to Christ unless he chooses to believe the Father who sent Him draws Greek: drags him. John 6:44

No one can come to Christ unless he chooses to believe it has been granted him from the Father. John 6:65

Because Jesus was lifted up from the earth, He will draw Greek: drag someall men to Himself. John 12:32

Jesus was delivered up against God’s wishes by the predetermined plan and the foreknowledge of God, and nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men. Acts 2:23

Paul, along with James, John, Peter, and Jesus, was a
chosen instrument of the Lord’s to bear His name before the Gentiles. Acts 9:15

God has granted to some of the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. Acts 11:18

Man opens his own The Lord opens the heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, with some being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23-24

While we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for some of the ungodly. Romans 5:6

God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for some of us. Romans 5:8

While we were enemies, some we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, some we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

The free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one [Adam] the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to some of the many. Romans 5:15

As through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to some all men. Romans 5:18

As through the one man's [Adam's] disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One some of the many will be made Righteous. Romans 5:19

The law came in that the transgression might decrease increase; but where sin decreased increased, grace abounded too much all the more. Romans 5:20

The creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, not but because of Him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:20-21

God causes some all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

Whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among some many brethren. Romans 8:29

God is sometimes for us. Romans 8:31

God is the one who justifies if we believe. Romans 8:33

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but not just on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

He has mercy on those who believe and do good works whom He desires, and He hardens those who don’t whom He desires. Romans 9:18

God has shut up some all men Most men have shut themselves up in disobedience that He may show judgment to them all mercy to all. Romans 11:32

Most men no one can resist His will. Romans 9:19

The potter has a right over some of the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor. Romans 9:21
[/quote]

I've viewed only a couple of the scriptures, however from the few that I have read, they imply the same thing with the words that have been crossed out. For instance

you wrote:

God works all some things after the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1:11

KJV, implys the same thing
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

you wrote:

While we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for some of the ungodly. Romans 5:6

KJV, implys the same thing
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. we were ALL ungodly. no "some" about that one.

I dont have a red-letter rendition, and do realize that some words have been added for interpretation, however I don't see this supporting inclusion.

[livinganewlife]

I've read the scriptures and they ALL point to Jesus so based on the scriptures given how can one justify the doctrine of inclusion which says ALL are Saved....

Based on the scriptures given you still MUST believe in Jesus, point blank all the scriptures posted still point to Jesus and the Cross.. so bases on part one of the scriptures given there is no support for the doctrine of inclusion.....

[ybrown]

livinganewlife said:

jasmine said:

Revelation 21:8- specially states what happens with unbelievers

Not according to the everyone goes to Heaven theory!!!!!

Based on the doctrine of inclusion what is the distinction between a believer and a non believer???

How is eternal life different for the believer versus eternal life for the non believer?

For starters, the different terms translated in our bibles need to be defined. In my observation...

Sheol is the OT word for the place of the dead (righteous and wicked). It is probably best translated as 'the grave'

Hades is the NT parallel to sheol. We know this b/c when the NT quotes an OT verse with the word Sheol, it replaces it with Hades. Thus, it seems Hades is also just the place the of the dead, the grave

Tartarus is used just 1 time (2 peter 2) and all we are told is it was a temporary place of punishment for fallen angels

Gehenna is simply the Greek word for the Valley of Hinnom. It seems it was the 'dump' for Jerusalem where trash was burned. There is no good reason for forcing Jesus' usage of Gehenna to mean 'hell' instead of 'Valley of Hinnom'

Thus, there is no word in either the OT or NT that should be translated as 'hell' (since our definition of hell is a place of everlasting torment and none of those words fit such a description).

Rev. 21:8 does say that unbelievers, among other categories of people, will go into the Lake of Fire. Those who hold on to the carnal nature and identify with it, find themselves in the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is Gehenna's Judgement. It is not a kind judgment, but it is a judgment nonetheless.

Take a look at Mark 9:42-50. It too speaks of fire.

43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. 49 For everyone will be salted with fire (some mss say “every sacrifice will be salted with salt.”)

And Mark 9 is really speaking to believers! How crazy is that? So even believers will be go through a fire. Specifically, be salted with fire.

Well, if it is the flames of the traditional view of hell, then that would not fit in with the traditional view of salvation, i.e. that believers are saved from hell because He says everyone will be salted with fire.

I obviously believe He is not being literal because not many Christians pluck out eyes or cut off hands (some have but I think that is because of a hyper-literal view of the text, which Christ did not intend).

Many commentators (including most UR commentators) believe, and I tend to agree with them, that ALL people will "suffer" through purifying fire (metaphorically, spirtually, or physically) until they are salted (made pure/of value). The fire is viewed as corrective in nature and less punitive, i.e. to bring about change and not just to torment for the sake of torment.

Here is another revelation that I got. It begins with a question. What happens when something is salted? It becomes better, and more flavorful. And remember Jesus’ teaching on the salt of the earth.

Mark 4:49 also goes along with Matthew 5:13, which says:

"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men."

This is from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, emphasizing how to be happy or blessed.

Most of want to get to that happy place right, quick and in a hurry, but oftentimes fail to realize that before we get to that point we’ve got to go through fire first. The great trials and tribulations in this life that we through that we don’t think we’ll survive. That is how we become that salt of the earth.

It’s for purification. We make it through our blood, sweat and tears; all of which, I realized, are salty.

Luke 14: 34-35:
"Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

There are as many ideas on what the Lake of Fire as there are saints, so this is a topic that has been raging for centuries.

[ybrown]

livinganewlife said:

ybrown said:

[
Everyone is not saved all at once and not everyone inherits the Kingdom. That is where God’s longsuferring and patience comes in.

Are you saying that those who aren't saved in this life will have another chance to get saved, sorta like reincarnation?

I am not clear on where the long suffering and patience takes place.....

I know some folks who died and they didn't believe in Jesus or God, is God going to give them a chance somewhere else?

Reincarnation? You’re barking up the wrong tree.

What is God’s longsuffering to you? Have you studied it and how He uses it with His creation? If not, you should.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.

God is longsuffering toward us because the longsuffering of the Lord is to be considered salvation 2 Peter 3:15. The longsuffering of God guarantees the salvation of all and he waits for all of mankind to come to repentance.

If you don't remember anything about God's longsuffering, remember this: His longsuffering is ALWAYS about His mercy. Look, God was longsuffering toward you. He was toward me, too.

O give thanks unto the Lord: for He is good, for His mercy endureth forever" (Ps. 136:1). For this perfection of the Divine character God is greatly to be praised. His mercy is "great" (1 Kings 3:6), "plenteous" (Ps. 86:5), "tender" (Luke 1:78), and "abundant" (1 Pet. 1:3).

It says in Hebrews that God scourges every son whom He accepts, and without disipline we are not true sons. If this is the experience of the firstfruits, how much more shall it be the experience of those who come after?

If we love and serve the Lord, obey Him and submit to Him and His authority with genuineness, it will go well with us, even if it is a painful process.

And if we live in prideful disregard of God, willingly shunning Him, choosing deception and living in independence from HIM, it will go bad for us--even if things look good temporarily. We can testify that things are harder when we are knowingly out of the will of God.

But even in all of that, God still has a right to judge sin. Us Christians can accept and even love that part, especially when it comes to the transgressions of someone other than ourselves. And yet, He would not be the God we love so much if He wasn't perfect in His judgments and a lover of righteousness.

Are there shortcuts in this journey? Nope. Not for anyone. Not even Christ. He came and lived this same earthly existence as we do and He completed His assignment – FULLY. The sins of the world were PAID IN FULL. We all must come through the cross, or not at all.

The place where we rejoice is that God's ability to bring all things to Himself as He states so many times in scripture. His Will cannot be thwarted, and in the end, He will have shalom in all of His creation from top to bottom. We rejoice because in God's great wisdom we KNOW that His plan from the foundation of the world will come to pass.

You asked about loved ones that have died. If you want to discuss end time events, that is another discussion, but I definitely believe that unbelievers are not done away with and discarded after death. Not at all, but they will go through fiery refining.

What I am now pondering is how the totality of the Word of God works within. I see that the letter (or law) kills, but the Spirit brings life.

When this is established then our reading of the entirety of scripture is different. We can now see what is killed and what is brought to life.

I’m in the Word all day, everyday, discussing it with some great and mighty men and women of God because my schedule allows it these days, and when I read about destruction, I think I’m seeing that it is speaking of the outer man/carnal man.

And when I read about life, I’m seeing that it is speaking of the inner man/spiritual man.

So the bible begins to make sense and I’ve come to see that we are all the same as every man will endure some type of fire, albeit, some will have more accomplished in them while still in this earthen dust suit.

So I’m contemplating that all those verses about destruction are pertaining to destroying that outer layer, that carnal nature, in order to reveal the beauty that lies beneath.

It makes me think of how the potter creates something out of a lump of clay and then puts in a fiery kiln in order to reveal it's true beauty. The hotter the oven and the more the fire is turned up, the more durable the thing of beauty becomes.

This is what I'm thinking anyway, but I must confirm it with the Word first.

[ybrown]

livinganewlife said:

I've read the scriptures and they ALL point to Jesus so based on the scriptures given how can one justify the doctrine of inclusion which says ALL are Saved....

Based on the scriptures given you still MUST believe in Jesus, point blank all the scriptures posted still point to Jesus and the Cross.. so bases on part one of the scriptures given there is no support for the doctrine of inclusion.....

Exactly. They all point to the Cross, Christ's atoning work.

He came to save mankind, to save the world. Did you not see those scriptures?

Unbelievers will come to believe and that is where God's longsuffering comes in. Our physical death is not the end.

He will draw ALL men to himself. Salvation is of God, not us. That was the foundation that I laid with the article I included in my first post.

He's not leaving anyone's salvation up to the individual because as I posted before, we won't come on our own.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance - Peter 3:9. Do you see the ALL here?

[ybrown]

Okay, Other New Testament Passages ;D:

Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men."

This passage couldn't be more explicit. Everyone who was condemned by Adam's sin will be justified by Christ's death. If the word "ALL" means "all mankind" in the first part of the verse, it means "all mankind" in the second part. I highly recommend studying the entire passage (Romans 5:12-21) without a commentary. Commentators will just try to explain away the clear teaching of this passage, which is that grace is always stronger than sin.

Romans 5:15: "If many [everyone] died through one man's [Adam's] trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift [salvation] by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many [everyone]."

This verse is another example of those who believe in eternal hell changing the meaning of a word in the same sentence. In the first part of the verse, they say the word "many" refers to all men because Adam's trespass brought death on all mankind, but when Paul uses the same word in the second half of the same sentence, they say it refers only to those who are born again before they die, because they refuse to believe that God's grace will reach every man. Paul clearly says in this verse that the grace of God and the free gift of salvation abounds for everyone.

Romans 11:32: "For God has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL."

God chooses people and nations and hardens that person or nation not to save a select group called "the elect" as some would have us believe, but so that "he may have mercy on all."

Romans 11:36: "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

Look at each part of this declaration one at a time. "For from him ... are all things." This obviously means that all things have their origin in Him. He created every thing. "Through him ... are all things" Everything is sustained by Him. "To him are all things." As all things had their origin in Him, so they will return to Him. To Him be glory forever!! Amen!

Romans 14:11: "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
The margin of the ESV says, "Or shall give praise." The NASB translates it: "Every tongue shall give praise to God." The CEV: "Everyone will kneel down and praise my name!" The words are self-explanatory. Everyone will praise God!

1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

The Message translates it: "Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ." Again I would ask you, Does it really make sense to take the first "all" to mean everyone and confine the second "all" to those who die in Christ? It is obvious that Paul has the same group in mind in both halves of the verse.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is expeted to put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

At the end, there is no place for sin, evil, or hell, for God is all in all! If God has to cast some people into everlasting hell, it means that He was unable to get them to submit themselves to Him. They won't be submitting themselves to Him in hell; they will be hating Him and cursing Him for all eternity. What kind of subjection is that? All will willingly subject themselves to Jesus and to God the Father after He has purged them of all sin and rebellion. The same word is used of Christ's subjection to the Father, and of the subjection of Christ's enemies to Him. Obviously Christ's subjection to the Father is out of love. How can endless evil and torment be described as subjection to Jesus? Such an interpretation is excluded by the last statement in this passage: "that God may be all in all"!

1 Corinthians 15:55: "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

If the majority of mankind will go to everlasting hell after death, it would seem that death will have won a huge victory! I urge you to study this entire section of scripture (1 Corinthians 15:12-58) and notice Paul's increasing rapture as his argument expands, as the prospect opens up to him of a universe yet to be, from which all sin and death are wiped out. Paul's words give only an imperfect expression of the absolute triumph of Christ, of the flood of glory that will fill the universe in the widest possible sense. God will be all in all!

2 Corinthians 5:19: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself."

Note that it doesn't say God was trying to reconcile the world to Himself. He was doing it! Study this whole passage carefully (2 Corinthians 5:11-21). God's reconciliation of the world to Himself is an accomplished fact. When we tell others about Christ, we are just telling them to embrace what has already been accomplished. And if they don't do it in this life, they will in the life to come when EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God!

Ephesians 1:9-10: "His purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time," is "to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."

If all things in heaven and earth are to be united in Christ, how is there any possibility of an endless hell or a creation permanently divided?

Ephesians 1:22-23: "And he [the Father] put all things under his [Jesus'] feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

The Greek verb used here for all things being under Christ's feet is used in 1 Corinthians 15:28, referring to the subjection of Christ to the Father. As we saw in looking at that verse, Christ's subjection of Himself to the Father is willing submission out of His love for the Father. That is the same submission Jesus will someday have from "all things." Notice the last phrase of verse 23: "the fullness of him who fills all in all." God fills everything in every way. The idea of a place existing for all eternity where people are forever shut out from the presence of God doesn't fit in a universe where God fills all in all.

Ephesians 4:8: "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."

Who are these captives? Luke 11:22, which we have already looked at, tells us. When Christ, the stronger man, broke into the strong man's (Satan's) house, he carried away all his belongings. 1 Peter 3:19, 4:6 tells us that Christ went and proclaimed the gospel to the spirits in prison (Hades) that they might live in the Spirit as God does.

Ephesians 4:10: "He who descended is the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things."

As we saw in looking at Ephesians 1:23, if Christ fills all things, how can there be an everlasting hell where people are forever shut out from the presence of Christ? The doctrine of eternal hell totally contradicts so many verses of scripture. The day is coming when God will completely eradicate sin from existence, not just keep it tucked away in a dark corner of the universe called hell forever!

Colossians 1:19-20: Through Christ "God was pleased ... to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

If God's goal in sending Christ was to reconcile everything to Himself, nothing can thwart that goal because He "works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).

Philippians 2:10-11: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in
heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Don't let that word "should" throw you. The NASB, NLT, NCV, CEV, The Message, and other translations all say "will." The key phrase is "to the glory of God."

If people are just bowing outwardly out of fear or awe while their hearts remain unbowed, that doesn't glorify God. Some day, every creature everywhere will willingly bow in worship and adoration as it says so clearly in our next verse, Revelation 5:13: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"' This is so obviously genuine worship! Would God who loves all mankind really cast anyone into everlasting torment who worships Him like this? Obviously John is looking past the judgment to a time when everyone everywhere has at last been reconciled to God and God is all in all! Hallelujah!!

1 Timothy 2:3-6: "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."

1 Timothy 4:10: "We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

The meaning is so clear it's transparent! God IS the Savior of everyone! He is the Savior of believers now and He will save everyone else in due time.

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people."

How is God's grace bringing salvation for all people consistent with the eternal d**nation of anyone?

1 Peter 3:19: Christ "went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison."

1 Peter 4:6 tells us what was preached to them. Was it their eternal d**nation? No, it was the Gospel, as it says, "The gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is ... not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

The NIV translates it: "The Lord is ... not wanting anyone to perish." If the Lord does not want anyone to perish, we can rest assured no one will. We have already shown in chapter 2 that God is able to change people's hearts and make them willing to come to Him even if they come "kicking, struggling, and resentful" as C.S. Lewis so eloquently put it in his testimony.

Hebrews 1:2: "He [God] has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things."

What sort of things do you suppose Jesus Christ is interested in inheriting? Mankind.

Hebrews 2:14-15: "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver ALL those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery."

If Jesus' death destroyed the devil as to his having the power of death, how can death continue forever in hell? If Christ's death delivers ALL from the fear of death, how can eternal death be waiting for anyone?

Hebrews 6:17 (NIV): "Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath."

We see God's unchanging purpose clearly in 2 Peter 3:9 where it says that God is not willing for anyone to perish. The word translated "willing" there is a variant of the word translated "purpose" in Hebrews 6:17.
If God's purpose or will is unchanging, and He is not willing that any should perish, we can be sure that God's purpose will come to pass in His time.

Hebrews 9:26: "He [Jesus] has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

The NIV translates it, "To do away with sin." That is the question: Did Jesus come to completely do away with sin or just to safely contain it in hell forever? If sin exists forever, Christ's victory is incomplete, because He came to do away with it completely! Amen!

Hebrews 13:8: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

The same Lord Jesus Christ that loved sinners when He was here in the flesh, who prayed for those who nailed Him to the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," that same Jesus will love sinners forever because He is unchanging!