Heresay In The Cathedral

[And Such Were Some Of You]

I am obviously missing something here.

I am going back to page 1 and starting all over.

[ybrown]

giantsdodie said:

How can a seeking person know God’s thoughts when his Bible does not even tell him what God has said?

I also find it funny that we have this bible that is perfect and infallible in the areas that we agree with but has errors and mistranslations in the areas we dont.

Now God cant even get a booked published accurately

Utterly ridiculous. Seriously.

Do you want to know what's ridiculous?

That anybody can look at a Young’s or Strong’s concordance (either one will do) and see the thousands (over 20,000 in fact) of inconsistencies of the King James Version from the earliest manuscripts.

That's what's ridiculous.

You seem to think that God inpsired the KJV. Uh, no. The authors weren't writing in the King's English. What we have, sir is what they call translations.

God inspired the Greek and men make mistakes. Well, men made over 20,000 mistakes. That is not a reflection on God. It's a reflection on us.

God's word IS infallible. Our translations, are not. Do you see the difference?

God is not making this easy, is He? He never has. He requires those that He chooses to do much hard work, from Moses, to Abraham, to Jesus to Paul to Martin Luther.

The easy way is no way for a warrior.

[nina]

I know. I just wanted to know if there was more to you mentioning it than the Hebrew meaning of the word.

I'll watch the thread as it keeps unfolding.

I would just say this, and I know that all of us are very aware of it: this topic is so vital. We need to constantly be aware of the fact that beyond everything, souls are at stake, many of them.

Also, and again , not that it's not how it is right now, it is critical to keep focused on the real matter. Those things reach very deep places in all involved, and it's normal that there is passion in the discussion.

Beyond all that, (not saying it's not important), God is more than able to make himself heard and understood. I do believe that this a time where God has been stepping up a lot of things among His people, individually and as a whole, His body, His bride.

My prayer is just that we may keep being patient with each other, as it has been, no matter how ruffled our spiritual feathers might be

[livinganewlife]

People please do not get angry with the members over this topic. Just think about how one would introduce Christ (a new subject) to a person who has never read the Bible or even heard of the Bible before.

Would you throw out 100's of scripture to them without explaining them in context or giving a history behind the scriptures. No of course not, no one would talk about Jesus without talking about his miraculous birth, miracles performed on Earth and than ultimately tell of the Death, Burial and Ressurection...

One would not just start quoting scriptures from Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, Revelations, etc.. without giving documented facts and background.

I say that because this is a new revelation to you and to others as well, and if God has enlightened you and you feel it is your duty to enlighten others than ask the Lord to give you the correct approach so that others may receive or at least have their hearts pricked.

As of yet, there has been a bunch of scriptures posted and if one would read the scriptures in context or randomly they still have nothing to do with the "doctrine of inclusion."

Example I could post over 100 scriptures in the Bible that support "polygamy" however we understand that "polygamy" is in error from the foundation of the world. Not to get off the topic this is just an example.

But from the foundation of the world God did not intend for man to die until "sin" took place?

There is a reward for sin just as there is a reward for righteousness.

[auneeqsol]

ybrown said:

giantsdodie said:

You seem to think that God inpsired the KJV. Uh, no. The authors weren't writing in the King's English. What we have, sir is what they call translations.

God inspired the Greek and men make mistakes. Well, men made over 20,000 mistakes. That is not a reflection on God. It's a reflection on us.

God's word IS infallible. Our translations, are not. Do you see the difference?

God is not making this easy, is He? He never has. He requires those that He chooses to do much hard work, from Moses, to Abraham, to Jesus to Paul to Martin Luther.

The easy way is no way for a warrior.

Okay I might get some eyebrows lifted , but I do believe that it was just that......a translation. Im telling you the way I grew up in holiness it was something (even though i thank God for my foundation) they made it seem like if it wasnt KJV then you were reading falsehoods. If you read NIV they would snicker at you like you were taking the easy way out or something, or like you werent in deep with the word of God.

But just like the NIV , and RSV there is the KJV. Its amongst the oldest and the one that became suited for protestants at the time but it is just a translation as the others i just named. It is not the "heaven sent" version that you only can read out of , or you are entertaining heresies....lol. Now when you get into that kind of study ya gotta put ya knee boots on and walk some things through. Because right here today ppl argue over different places in the word where words were added for the sake of understanding , them saying its not like that in the original greek text and so on. Just like the Trinity vs. Oneness issue.....Ppl take the verse in 1 John 5:7 about 3 bearing witness in heaven, and its used to support Trinity view, and then on the other hand the ppl taking the Oneness view will argue that it was added.....and so on.

Now I didnt say that to bash the KJV because it has brought us to this point, but we just have to be more receptive to get the whole view of what God is doing and the message he wants us to embrace in this time

[ybrown]

I had no doubt that you would know, Nina.

The expanded version is this:

Let's get to the root and the heart of ALL the matters at hand. What did God originally say? What did the first church originally do? What didn't they do? What exactly did Jesus say? What exactly are we doing and believing today? What is the root of our teachings? What weeds are growing at the roots that have simply overtaken the vine?

Thanks.

[giantsdodie]

I am not going to result to insults, calling people lazy, or denegrating their intelligence, spiritual background, knowledge of the Word or their knowledge of church history.

I am not here to wrestling with flesh and blood.

I know a spirit of error when I see it.

The spirit of error will ALWAYS seek to undermine our confidence in the Word of God ALWAYS.

The spirit of error will ALWAYS seeks to undermine basic foundational Bible Doctrine.

The spirit of error will ALWAYS try in some way to minimize the work of atonemnt of JESUS on the cross ( it will always try to cause you to see it outside of the truth )

The spirit of error will often try to use scripture to confuse you and drag you into error. ( one of its favorite tricks to to bombard you with a lot of scripture, or scripture taken out of context to make it seem as if it knows what it is talking about by the sheer abundance of scripture thrown around )

the spirit of error will ALWAYS attempt to undermine the infallibility of God's Word, particularly the KJV version which is considered to be the most accurate.

The spirit of error will AWAYS seek to cause us to mistrust God's designated authroty and seek to make us an authority unto ourselves accountable to no one.

Watch out for the spirit of error. Know its tactics. See its operation. Know its fruit. War against it in prayer

[ybrown]

auneeqsol said:

ybrown said:

giantsdodie said:

You seem to think that God inpsired the KJV. Uh, no. The authors weren't writing in the King's English. What we have, sir is what they call translations.

God inspired the Greek and men make mistakes. Well, men made over 20,000 mistakes. That is not a reflection on God. It's a reflection on us.

God's word IS infallible. Our translations, are not. Do you see the difference?

God is not making this easy, is He? He never has. He requires those that He chooses to do much hard work, from Moses, to Abraham, to Jesus to Paul to Martin Luther.

The easy way is no way for a warrior.

Okay I might get some eyebrows lifted , but I do believe that it was just that......a translation. Im telling you the way I grew up in holiness it was something (even though i thank God for my foundation) they made it seem like if it wasnt KJV then you were reading falsehoods. If you read NIV they would snicker at you like you were taking the easy way out or something, or like you werent in deep with the word of God.

But just like the NIV , and RSV there is the KJV. Its amongst the oldest and the one that became suited for protestants at the time but it is just a translation as the others i just named. It is not the "heaven sent" version that you only can read out of , or you are entertaining heresies....lol. Now when you get into that kind of study ya gotta put ya knee boots on and walk some things through. Because right here today ppl argue over different places in the word where words were added for the sake of understanding , them saying its not like that in the original greek text and so on. Just like the Trinity vs. Oneness issue.....Ppl take the verse in 1 John 5:7 about 3 bearing witness in heaven, and its used to support Trinity view, and then on the other hand the ppl taking the Oneness view will argue that it was added.....and so on.

Now I didnt say that to bash the KJV because it has brought us to this point, but we just have to be more receptive to get the whole view of what God is doing and the message he wants us to embrace in this time

Exactly, KJVO folks are a fanatical breed. They are like pit bulls with a steak. They'll bite you, and bite you deep!

The KJV is just a translation! One word mistranslated can throw you off. For example just by changing the word "an" to "the" in the Old Testament can knock Jesus right out of the OT. The KJV did this in some places.

The Lord was revealing something to me and I checked the KJV and it didn't confirm what God told me.

I said Lord it doesn't say that. He told me to check later and other versions and I did and they confirmed EXACTLY what He said.

Interesting enough, the NKJV was translated using the exact manuscripts as the KJV and guess what? They corrected their earlier mistake and put in "the" and now Jesus is back in the Old Testament.

Pheww!!

What did they do before they even had bibles? They relied on God. Now we have the HS craddled safely in us to lead us to all truth!

If He gives you something and your translation doesn't conform it, DIG DEEPER AND GET TO THE ROOT OF THE MATTER.

auneeqsol, The Comma (1 John passage) is a whole other can of worms that you don't want to opened up here.

[keita]

Grace and Peace, Saints!

Revelation 21:8- specially states what happens with unbelievers

For me that portion of scripture also did and does much more than that. In fact, in terms of my "inherited theology", it actually raised as many questions as it answered. For example, consider v.14:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire..."

Maybe it was me, but God simply allowing me to discover that "hell" and "the lake of fire" could not be and were not synonyms was MAJOR for me. So is the fact that for a very long time, and like so many (both believers and otherwise), I grew up thinking, never questioned and firmly believed that they were one and the same. And this (imho) foundational misunderstanding continued despite the fact that the scriptures (that I have in several translations, love deeply and study daily) make very plain that they cannot be and are not the same.

Imagine that... LOL!


Ybrown...BE ENCOURAGED, my sister in Christ.

Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth. Please continue to bring the part God is giving to you. May God continue to Bless you with and for an enquiring mind and the willingness and perserverance to

"Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion..." (Micah 4:13)

( I believe you (and perhaps some others here) will find that the "context" of that scripture applies to both this present season and your assignment in it...)

[Jasmine]

keita said:

Grace and Peace, Saints!

Revelation 21:8- specially states what happens with unbelievers

For me that portion of scripture also did and does much more than that. In fact, in terms of my "inherited theology", it actually raised as many questions as it answered. For example, consider v.14:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire..."

Maybe it was me, but God simply allowing me to discover that "hell" and "the lake of fire" could not be and were not synonyms was MAJOR for me. So is the fact that for a very long time, and like so many (both believers and otherwise), I grew up thinking, never questioned and firmly believed that they were one and the same. And this (imho) foundational misunderstanding continued despite the fact that the scriptures (that I have in several translations, love deeply and study daily) make very plain that they cannot be and are not the same.

Imagine that... LOL!


Ybrown...BE ENCOURAGED, my sister in Christ.

Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth. Please continue to bring the part God is giving to you. May God continue to Bless you with and for an enquiring mind and the willingness and perserverance to

"Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion..." (Micah 4:13)

( I believe you (and perhaps some others here) will find that the "context" of that scripture applies to both this present season and your assignment in it...)

I don't think that people disagree with the fact that HELL and the LAKE of FIRE, are two different things. What you can not convince me (and I am speaking for my ownself), EVEN by the amount of scriptures that you throw out, (because even the devil knows how to twist them), that unbelievers will be purified in the "lake of fire", to join Believers in the New heaven & Earth.

Again, my opinion thats LUDICROUS. And I stand by that like Activator on a Jeri Curl! I think I'll run on to see what the END will truly Reveal.

Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth

Thats a Doubled amen!

[giantsdodie]

We can only be led by the Holy Spirit as far as we are willing to be led.

[Jasmine]

Also I think it is very important to say this

The salvation claimed by CP is simply a given entity. It is possessed by every human being without their knowledge. However, this is not what the Bible teaches. Salvation is not possessed by default, but is obtained in a specific manner, by a process which may be slow or quick, but it is a process of obtaining knowledge about Jesus Christ:


"You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
2 Timothy 3:14-15
Apostle Paul

"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' --that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that god raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Romans 10:8-10
Apostle Paul

The apostle Paul teaches a different message regarding salvation than does Carlton Pearson. Paul did not preach a gospel of universal reconciliation applied to all, but a specific gospel to be universally preached to all. <~ Please note the difference as it is quite profound.

The gospel of Universal Reconciliation is not the gospel taught by the apostle Paul. Salvation, according to the apostle Paul, is not automatically granted and is not possessed by people from birth. Salvation must be found and it is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ. It is at the point of faith that it is granted, not by default or by inheritance.


Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)- remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:11-13
Apostle Paul

[ybrown]

Let's not talk around scripture when we can actually read it.

We can pick a any scripture that I've listed. To avoid any ideas of contextual twisting, I've put up the entire passage of I Timothy 2:1-8.

Three different translations/versions, in fact so that we can get a fuller and more robust picture.

• The Message Bible because it is modern and very easy to read and understand.
  
• The Young’s Literal because it’s aim is be what it says it is – a literal translation.
  
• The KJV because it a favorite of many.
  

Feel free to use whatever version you wish.

This passage of scripture is usually entitled Prayer for All People, so we know that we are to pray for ALL people and at this junction we can probably say WHY we are to pray for all people. If you do not agree with this, then state what you think "Prayer for All People" means.

I like the ease of netbible's titles, so that is where I got the title. Please confirm this for yourself.

The Message

1 The first thing I want you to do is pray. Pray every way you know how, for everyone you know. 2 Pray especially for rulers and their governments to rule well so we can be quietly about our business of living simply, in humble contemplation. 3 This is the way our Savior God wants us to live. 4 He wants not only us but everyone saved, you know, everyone to get to know the truth we've learned: 5 that there's one God and only one, and one Priest-Mediator between God and us--Jesus, 6 who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out. 7 This and this only has been my appointed work: getting this news to those who have never heard of God, and explaining how it works by simple faith and plain truth. 8 Since prayer is at the bottom of all this, what I want mostly is for men to pray--not shaking angry fists at enemies but raising holy hands to God.

YLT

1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men: 2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity, 3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, 4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times – 7 in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth. 8 I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning;

KJV

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Am I missing something? Break it down for me, please. And again, feel free to use whatever version you want if you think these are bias in any way.

[nina]

If it is possible, even at this point, to not focus exclusively on what we have come to label "doctrine of inclusion":

Just one question, and I am not trying to play any kind of silly games with this, it's too serious: what if, indeed, it was ultimately God's plan?
Would we argue with God? Would we say it's not fair?

Jesus is far from being absent of the doctrine of inclusion, to the contrary. The issue with it was, and still is, everybody goes to Heaven, ultimately.

What this controversy, for lack of a better word, does is force us to confront the fact that actually we (general) might not know much about either one, hell or Heaven.

For exemple, when the new Jerusalem is described by the prophet in the Old Testament, it is very detailed.
Some areas are assigned to some, some to others, the area reserved for the prince, etc... Who gets to be where? Based on what? Do we get to, like some like to say openly, pick our spot too? I don't think so. God has already set it up in details.

From what we know, there will be an entire new universe, and very populated at that. That's God's design too.

When we say "and we shall reign with Him forever", how do we picture that? What will we be doing in the new earth with God dwelling among us forever? There will be "natural" people still... How? Why? And the tree of life too. And so much more.

Then, when we speak about salvation:
- Jesus said several times that salvation is for the Jew first. Paul, in Romans, says very plainly - talking about the Jews - that at the appointed time, they will all be saved. Do we have a problem with that?

- Jesus on the cross. Between two criminals.
- Jesus almost dead, but not yet
- Jesus not having "gone down to hell" yet
- Jesus' blood not having been accepted yet
- Jesus not having been glorified yet

And Jesus telling one of them, true, after he recognises that Jesus was innocent and asking to be remembered in Jesus' future reign, that he will be with Him this same day, in paradise...

Really, if we try to picture this in a more present context, would we accept it? Say, if we were witnessing the execution of a terrible criminal, and at the last minute, we could actually see Jesus there by that person, and the same dialogue taking place, would that fit with our understanding? I know it would in absolute, but would it really? Yet, that's God too, and that man was in paradise with Jesus that very same day...

So, I just have to ask: why are we so concerned with who is going to be there with us and how they got there? Will it matter?
At the wedding banquet, the ones who were invited did not want to go, so everybody else got in, on God's specific demand. Were they saved, sanctified, tithing, going to church and all that? Chances are no, they were not. Was it a spur of the moment decision on God's part?

What if "punishment" is only for a season of purification? What does it take away from us, in absolute, if indeed it's His plan? Nothing.

I'm not saying follow anybody, embrace anything, not at all. We ought to follow Him only. What I am saying is that there are mysteries in God. We ought to ask, and seek, and knock. But we can't know and understand everything, only what He allows us to.

The Pharisees were certain that they were right about Jesus and his followers. Only one, later, said if it's from God, it will stand, if not, it won't. But, don't take a chance to go against God...

The key, as Keita said:

"Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth. "

[Jasmine]

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

-Paul is saying that Most important of all things..is to pray. The paul goes on to list the different types of prayers. Supplication-precise request for specific needs. Prayer- a general word embracing various kinds of prayers, confession, adoration, so on and so forth. Intercessions- prayers to God on the behalf of others. Secondly paul is saying here" There is a reason why prayers should be offered by ALL men. Secondly prayers help bring about salvation for others. Some of us are saved because Some one took the time to pray for us while we were yet in our sins. Which Above all, Most imporantly, We should PRAY. Prayer is good and acceptable to God because it was written that men should always pray and faint not, so obviously there is strength given when we pray.Paul is also saying that we should pray so that we can enjoy a "tranquil" life. Meaning that we should lead a quiet and peaceable life with the utmost reverence and respect for those in authority.

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

So what is paul saying in these verses: Paul is saying that There being ONE GOD implies that he must have the same desire toward alll people, which is, their salvation. There is One mediator which means he's made the same provisions for all people, which is Redemption. Paul is also saying that Jesus gave himself to be a ransom for all men, which will be testified in due time. Due time also means " Proof" and I believe that JESUS sacrifice is Proof enough, that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in HIM, SHALL have everlasting life. That his desire is that all men be saved.

I myself have a desire that ALL men will be saved, that they would turn from their wicked lifestyle, and place their hope and trust in Jesus, so that they too can experience the Goodness of God.. but guess what? There will be people who will NOT accept Jesus. They will reject him, and my dear sister GOD already knows this. God is not going to force himself on any man, as he has clearly stated that if we would draw nigh to HIM, he would draw nigh unto us.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
-hmm, Paul " I intend" that men in every locality pray, geography being no factor in this. Pray everywhere lifting up holy hands, (which means with a "PURE LIFE", which is without (wrath and doubting) which means disputes. A Pure life, which is also referred to " Conversation" or LIFESTYLE in the bible.

Ps 50:23 - Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

Eph 2:3 - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 4:22 - That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

1Pe 1:15 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 peter 3:9-18

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.