|
|
Post by krazeeboi on May 15, 2007 0:34:31 GMT -5
I'm having a conversation with a sister on another message board about God and the origin of evil. My starting point, which I think is rather simple and logical, is that because God is sovereign (has control over everyone and everything in all places at all times in all ways in all things) and omniscient (knowing the end from the beginning), and He has allowed evil to be, then He is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. She agrees with me that God has allowed evil to be, but says that it's not true that God is ultimately responsible for evil in the world.
What say ye?
|
|
|
|
Post by ybrown on May 15, 2007 12:28:22 GMT -5
Did you define your terms? Is there agreement on the definition of what evil is or is not?
|
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on May 15, 2007 14:23:36 GMT -5
I don't believe God is responsible for all evill..though I believe there somethings he allows..check out Job 1
|
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on May 15, 2007 14:47:56 GMT -5
Ybrown, we pretty much covered all of those bases. They pretty much include the little old lady who got mugged on her way home from the grocery store, the 3-year-old that got killed due to a stray bullet coming through her window, the hurricane that killed thousands of people, the epidemic that wiped out 1/4 of a nation, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jasmine on May 15, 2007 21:25:55 GMT -5
I think its a mere play of words.
He allowed the mugging, the shooting, and the hurricane. While one can say He is ultimately responsible because he is creator of all, He really isn't ultimately responsible for the act that occurred.
|
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on May 15, 2007 21:50:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I made sure that I went back and said that me believing that God is ultimately responsible for evil is NOT the same as saying that He is the author of evil acts that occur, as I do not believe that. In the broadest sense, though, God is ultimately responsible for evil existing.
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on May 16, 2007 10:28:22 GMT -5
I believe that God creates evil because, in the scriptures, He said that He does.
I believe that God is sovereign and therefore is both responsible for and (PRAISE GOD!) in complete control of it and all.
I do not believe that God actually does evil.... He has (and, I believe, created) Satan for that.
As far as the argument of God "allowing/letting/permitting, etc." evil goes, it could be said that God doing that is pretty much the same as creating it (as in Genesis 1: "Let there be light and there was light.")
Sometimes I think we work too hard trying to defend God (as if, lol!) against accusations of things that He, Himself boldly proclaims, rather than coming to terms with His truth.... no mattter what has to die in our present
theologically/doctrinally/(un)scripturally/semantically comfortable understanding in order to do so.
For example, when someone accuses God of creating or allowing evil, I simply (and truly do) agree with him/her. It's ususally surprising to them (and is especially disarming to "atheists" who dearly love to use that particular accusation as an argument against God) and allows the conversation to continue....
|
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on May 16, 2007 13:36:15 GMT -5
Sometimes I think we work too hard trying to defend God (as if, lol!) against accusations of things that He, Himself boldly proclaims, rather than coming to terms with His truth.... no mattter what has to die in our present
theologically/doctrinally/(un)scripturally/semantically comfortable understanding in order to do so.
PRECISELY. But you know some people will do anything to hold on to that.
The implications are very grave if we hold to the opposite; if God isn't ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the world, then He cannot be sovereign. If He is not sovereign, He is not God.
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on May 16, 2007 20:20:19 GMT -5
The implications are very grave if we hold to the opposite; if God isn't ultimately responsible for everything that happens in the world, then He cannot be sovereign. If He is not sovereign, He is not God. Amen, bro kb. Imho, belief in God's complete and absolute sovereignty is essential to ever having total faith and being able to truly rest in Him. To me, the very surety of His promises is found in His sovereignty. Sometimes I think we work too hard trying to defend God (as if, lol!) against accusations of things that He, Himself boldly proclaims, rather than coming to terms with His truth.... no mattter what has to die in our present
theologically/doctrinally/(un)scripturally/semantically comfortable understanding in order to do so.PRECISELY. But you know some people will do anything to hold on to that. And when we do so, I believe we are, once again, ignorantly, and often quite stubbornly accepting and living in the lesser. Because despite whatever difficulty or struggles we may have with reconciling ourselves, our beliefs, and our faith to God's WHOLE REVEALED TRUTH of who and how He is, there is no more perfect security than knowing that Our Father truly is ALL IN ALL. (Keita encouraged herself! LOL!) |
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on May 16, 2007 20:24:30 GMT -5
^You're right. I just seems like this particular sister I'm in dialogue with on the other board can't bring herself to cross that particular threshold (but there's also an element of pride at work as well; she'll jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid admitting that she may even possibly be wrong). She'll say that God did allow evil, and that He's in control of everything. So I don't know what's so hard about then taking the next step and saying that He's ultimately responsible for everything that happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on May 16, 2007 20:52:33 GMT -5
Bro kb, you know how we do (or at least should) struggle with them there paradoxes, lol! .... I just seems like this particular sister I'm in dialogue with on the other board can't bring herself to cross that particular threshold (but there's also an element of pride at work as well; she'll jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid admitting that she may even possibly be wrong). She'll say that God did allow evil, and that He's in control of everything. So I don't know what's so hard about then taking the next step and saying that He's ultimately responsible for everything that happens. Well, for one thing, that kind of shift requires that our FEAR of God be at least equal to (if not exceed) our LOVE of Him. For a lot of us, that particular enlargement or shift is a MAJOR and foundational one and therefore can be very unsettling and even frightening. God as benevolent Father is just so much easier, more palatable and (at least currently) SO very much more likely to be preached and taught than God as righteous Judge. Oh, but He is both....and MORE! Nevertheless! (Btw, personally, I think that in much of the church, the fear of God is presently in even shorter supply than love is....hmmmm....) |
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on May 16, 2007 22:17:16 GMT -5
Oh yes, we embrace the paradoxes around here!  One thing that I told her is that I don't believe that God is any less loving or gracious or kind or merciful because He is ultimately responsible for evil. Another thing I think that's behind her mindset is that she subconsciously thinks that God owes it to everyone to be gracious and kind and patient and merciful. That attitude really irks me, because the only thing God owes me is to hurl me into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Even at the young age of 27, if a bomb were to hit the building I'm in and take me out of here, I realize that God didn't even owe me the 27 years He's so graciously given me. And most of all, He didn't owe it to me to save me, and for me, THAT'S MORE THAN ENOUGH! As I've heard it stated, God isn't obligated to give equally (to every person) that which He is not obligated to give at all. And because He has chosen to give that which He was not obligated to give, that makes Him infinitely loving, gracious, kind, and merciful. Now why is that so hard for everyone to grasp??? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by stillfocused on May 17, 2007 1:32:53 GMT -5
Krazeeboi...it maybe hard for this to sister to accept what has been spoken because of teaching or the lack thereof . I am constantly being reminded that His grace is sufficient and that no matter what he owes me nothing. Too often (and we've all done it) we pull out list and demand of the Lord to make things because " I AM a King's Kid". As it has already been said God is sovereign..
|
|
|
|
Post by nina2 on May 17, 2007 3:05:29 GMT -5
"....But when you're a Divine Being, your desires create reality. With God, just wanting something makes it exist. After all, He is all-powerful; if He wants it, what can possibly stop it from being?
He wanted a world, so it was. He wanted goodness, so it was.
Now the same applies to God not wanting something: it too becomes reality. If God decides He doesn't want something, then that decision itself makes that thing exist. God's all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates. Evil is what God doesn't want. So it exists.
....But evil doesn't exist in the same way that goodness exists. God wants goodness, so its existence is true and everlasting. Evil exists as a negative, something God doesn't want, so its existence is flimsy and temporal. Evil is no more than an undesirable non-entity, a path not to be taken.
...The only way to banish the ghost of evil is to turn on the light of good."
And that's what Jesus did. That's also the power that we received through him.
Is the light turn on?
And why would Jesus say, back to back:
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
- We are the salt of the covenant
- We are the light of the world
Maybe we have become so used to just using a quick switch that we forgot how to tend to a light, a candle light, an oil lamp...
But, when the power goes off, we do run for candles in the dark, don't we?
Does it come down to who and what turns us on??
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on May 17, 2007 9:47:42 GMT -5
"...... God's all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates..... AWESOME WORD! AWESOME GOD! |
|
