Post by keita on Sept 26, 2008 18:18:18 GMT -5
(Gleaned from the TW thread HERE ...)
Titus 2:3-5
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
The ISSUE is not that he's leading on "desperate women" but rather a woe to the aged women who did not do their job.......
Mm? “Woe”? Woe to the “aged women”? Woah.....
So, let’s see:
1- Aged women: what was the average age of an aged woman during Paul’s time vs nowadays?
Does it matter? Yes, it does.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that younger women should (keyword!) be able to relate more today to “older” women.
Most of them don’t look their age anyway, they are very much in tune with what’s happening, here, there, and everywhere in fact, and whether they are married or have never been married, they are fit for the purpose mentioned by Paul. Being single doesn’t disqualify an older woman from teaching in the ways he spoke of.
2- I had to ask about the age factor when talking about aged women, because often today, there are “not so old” women who are already grandmothers for example. So, it is important to determine what old meant then and means now. Is it strictly age as in a number of years, or life experience?
3- You say they did not do their job. OK: Why?
-If, indeed, the issue was what you said it is, in the church, why did not they do their “job”?
-Did they ever do it?
-How did they do it?
-Under what authority and what overseeing did they do it?
-Were they at liberty to do it?
-Were they chosen, elected, voted in, just revealed as being the ones who ought to be doing it?
-If it was being done, what caused it to stop?
-Were they told to just go and sit down and not to do it anymore?
-Was it because suddenly their “job” was deemed not as relevant to our times and ways and/or put a damper on someone else’s style?
I do have more questions about all that, and I am still very intrigued by what can have brought you to this conclusion......
1- Aged women: what was the average age of an aged woman during Paul’s time vs nowadays?
Does it matter? Yes, it does.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that younger women should (keyword!) be able to relate more today to “older” women.
Most of them don’t look their age anyway, they are very much in tune with what’s happening, here, there, and everywhere in fact, and whether they are married or have never been married, they are fit for the purpose mentioned by Paul. Being single doesn’t disqualify an older woman from teaching in the ways he spoke of.
So much I could say...... <<smile>> I think that although there may be an "easier time" relating, I don't know if that is a good thing. I think that for many women, we "grow up" too fast and things we can relate aren't things that we should be relating to. Being 29 and having a 12 year old that can relate to me because she's intimate and has a kid (and maybe one on the way) isn't what I would think is things that we should be able to relate with.....make sense.
I know that although nothing "disqualifies a single person talking to a married person, even as a married person, there are some things that I may not discuss with a single person. Granted as a married person I do know what it is to be single which isn't necessarily true vice versa.
I think it's age and life experience. But what I indicated before, many of us grew up too quickly..... which may be why there are ppl in their 20's, 30's and even 40's that are acting what we would call "immature" but it's that desire to be able to have fun and be "free" like a child.
Became lax. Trying to "fit in" with the times. Lack of love..... lack of role models....lack of men in the home.....lack of separate/but equal gender roles...
Yes
Many would say in church or in their neighborhoods. Although I will admit that I have heard that there was a great shift once there was desegregation. (that's a WHOLE different discussion.....)
The husband/father/church
Yes, even in that article about the women pastors, I don't believe that it has ever been shunned for women to teach women or even young children.
In talking to some older saints, many times, they just "knew" who to talk to. Granted you had/have the mothers of the church which I "guess" are elected? (not sure about that)
I really think part was blurred gender lines and therefore less time was taken for building up the women and nurturing them. That and the lack of the father in the home and sayings like "I don't need a man" type discussions going on in front of the kids which would cause their thoughts regarding men/fathers to change.....
I think based on some of the way they were teaching, that's possible. But I think that slowly over the years, it wasn't done much. But now, you are seeing an influx of churches trying to do what should've been done a long time ago and it's more difficult because of so many generations that have missed it. (almost like the fact that there are kids today that have NEVEr stepped in a church or even know who Jesus is........)
Think I answered that in the above thought. I think that it stopped (slowly) and only after it seems a major disaster are ppl trying to "pick up the pieces"...it's just more difficult with generation of thought that would have to possibly be retaught. Much is also harder with "marriage" being up in the air regarding who? (mm/ff vs mf) What the role of the woman is. Who's better? (ie old school vs new school)
This...definitely hits on a lot of things that are concerning to me even as I begin putting my ideas about "women's ministry" on paper.....[/b][/size][/size][/quote]
This... definitely hits on a lot of things that are concerning to me even as I begin putting my ideas about "women's ministry" on paper.....
Thank you Nikkol for taking the time to share your thoughts on this topic.
I believe that all those questions (and many more), and not just asking questions but truly seeking godly answers and solutions, at this time, are very important when it comes to WOMAN and God's actual plan for Eve, her spiritual legacy and highest purpose in His kingdom....[/color][/b]
Also, in line (I think!
with some things you mentioned in your answers re "older women" or church mothers, and the fact that, lately, there is a lot of stirring and ruffling when it comes to titles, positions, etc... Something is definitely happening in that area:
Do you think that, not in order to follow the world, but to be able to maintain open communications between generations and possibly take down some walls, it would help if we could "modernize" (not secularize!) some terms, and for example use words like "coach" or "mentor"? Or whatever else is not as intimidating, maybe?
If that could be done, without making a big deal about the title itself, but what it actually means, do you think that it might help by making it less formal, maybe more "relaxed" and easier to have that kind of dialogue?[/size][/quote]
I know that women's issues and ministry is a particular passion of many sistermembers of this board, and is certainly one of mine. So I'm looking forward to the continued fruitful discussion.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
The ISSUE is not that he's leading on "desperate women" but rather a woe to the aged women who did not do their job.......
Mm? “Woe”? Woe to the “aged women”? Woah.....
So, let’s see:
1- Aged women: what was the average age of an aged woman during Paul’s time vs nowadays?
Does it matter? Yes, it does.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that younger women should (keyword!) be able to relate more today to “older” women.
Most of them don’t look their age anyway, they are very much in tune with what’s happening, here, there, and everywhere in fact, and whether they are married or have never been married, they are fit for the purpose mentioned by Paul. Being single doesn’t disqualify an older woman from teaching in the ways he spoke of.
2- I had to ask about the age factor when talking about aged women, because often today, there are “not so old” women who are already grandmothers for example. So, it is important to determine what old meant then and means now. Is it strictly age as in a number of years, or life experience?
3- You say they did not do their job. OK: Why?
-If, indeed, the issue was what you said it is, in the church, why did not they do their “job”?
-Did they ever do it?
-How did they do it?
-Under what authority and what overseeing did they do it?
-Were they at liberty to do it?
-Were they chosen, elected, voted in, just revealed as being the ones who ought to be doing it?
-If it was being done, what caused it to stop?
-Were they told to just go and sit down and not to do it anymore?
-Was it because suddenly their “job” was deemed not as relevant to our times and ways and/or put a damper on someone else’s style?
I do have more questions about all that, and I am still very intrigued by what can have brought you to this conclusion......
1- Aged women: what was the average age of an aged woman during Paul’s time vs nowadays?
Does it matter? Yes, it does.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that younger women should (keyword!) be able to relate more today to “older” women.
Most of them don’t look their age anyway, they are very much in tune with what’s happening, here, there, and everywhere in fact, and whether they are married or have never been married, they are fit for the purpose mentioned by Paul. Being single doesn’t disqualify an older woman from teaching in the ways he spoke of.
So much I could say...... <<smile>> I think that although there may be an "easier time" relating, I don't know if that is a good thing. I think that for many women, we "grow up" too fast and things we can relate aren't things that we should be relating to. Being 29 and having a 12 year old that can relate to me because she's intimate and has a kid (and maybe one on the way) isn't what I would think is things that we should be able to relate with.....make sense.
I know that although nothing "disqualifies a single person talking to a married person, even as a married person, there are some things that I may not discuss with a single person. Granted as a married person I do know what it is to be single which isn't necessarily true vice versa.
2- I had to ask about the age factor when talking about aged women, because often today, there are “not so old” women who are already grandmothers for example. So, it is important to determine what old meant then and means now. Is it strictly age as in a number of years, or life experience?
I think it's age and life experience. But what I indicated before, many of us grew up too quickly..... which may be why there are ppl in their 20's, 30's and even 40's that are acting what we would call "immature" but it's that desire to be able to have fun and be "free" like a child.
3-You say they did not do their job. OK: Why?
-If, indeed, the issue was what you said it is, in the church, why did not they do their “job”?
-If, indeed, the issue was what you said it is, in the church, why did not they do their “job”?
Became lax. Trying to "fit in" with the times. Lack of love..... lack of role models....lack of men in the home.....lack of separate/but equal gender roles...
-Did they ever do it?
Yes
-How did they do it?
Many would say in church or in their neighborhoods. Although I will admit that I have heard that there was a great shift once there was desegregation. (that's a WHOLE different discussion.....)
-Under what authority and what overseeing did they do it?
The husband/father/church
-Were they at liberty to do it?
Yes, even in that article about the women pastors, I don't believe that it has ever been shunned for women to teach women or even young children.
-Were they chosen, elected, voted in, just revealed as being the ones who ought to be doing it?
In talking to some older saints, many times, they just "knew" who to talk to. Granted you had/have the mothers of the church which I "guess" are elected? (not sure about that)
-If it was being done, what caused it to stop?
I really think part was blurred gender lines and therefore less time was taken for building up the women and nurturing them. That and the lack of the father in the home and sayings like "I don't need a man" type discussions going on in front of the kids which would cause their thoughts regarding men/fathers to change.....
-Were they told to just go and sit down and not to do it anymore?
I think based on some of the way they were teaching, that's possible. But I think that slowly over the years, it wasn't done much. But now, you are seeing an influx of churches trying to do what should've been done a long time ago and it's more difficult because of so many generations that have missed it. (almost like the fact that there are kids today that have NEVEr stepped in a church or even know who Jesus is........)
-Was it because suddenly their “job” was deemed not as relevant to our times and ways and/or put a damper on someone else’s style?
Think I answered that in the above thought. I think that it stopped (slowly) and only after it seems a major disaster are ppl trying to "pick up the pieces"...it's just more difficult with generation of thought that would have to possibly be retaught. Much is also harder with "marriage" being up in the air regarding who? (mm/ff vs mf) What the role of the woman is. Who's better? (ie old school vs new school)
This...definitely hits on a lot of things that are concerning to me even as I begin putting my ideas about "women's ministry" on paper.....
Thank you Nikkol for taking the time to share your thoughts on this topic.
I believe that all those questions (and many more), and not just asking questions but truly seeking godly answers and solutions, at this time, are very important when it comes to WOMAN and God's actual plan for Eve, her spiritual legacy and highest purpose in His kingdom....
Also, in line (I think!
with some things you mentioned in your answers re "older women" or church mothers, and the fact that, lately, there is a lot of stirring and ruffling when it comes to titles, positions, etc... Something is definitely happening in that area:Do you think that, not in order to follow the world, but to be able to maintain open communications between generations and possibly take down some walls, it would help if we could "modernize" (not secularize!) some terms, and for example use words like "coach" or "mentor"? Or whatever else is not as intimidating, maybe?
If that could be done, without making a big deal about the title itself, but what it actually means, do you think that it might help by making it less formal, maybe more "relaxed" and easier to have that kind of dialogue?[/size][/quote]
I know that women's issues and ministry is a particular passion of many sistermembers of this board, and is certainly one of mine. So I'm looking forward to the continued fruitful discussion.
i think imo leave this thread a lone and explore more on the female issue on sister nina's angels thread. xx