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Post by anointedteacher on Jan 14, 2010 13:19:52 GMT -5
Pat Robertson: Haiti 'Cursed' By 'Pact To The Devil'
Televangelist Pat Robertson said Wednesday that earthquake-ravaged Haiti has been "cursed" by a "pact to the devil."
"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it," he said on Christian Broadcasting Network's "The 700 Club." "They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III, or whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, we will serve you if you'll get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, okay it's a deal."
Robertson said that "ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other" and he contrasted Haiti with its neighbor, the Dominican Republic.
"That island of Hispaniola is one island. It is cut down the middle; on the one side is Haiti on the other is the Dominican Republic," he said. "Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a great turning to god and out of this tragedy I'm optimistic something good may come. But right now we are helping the suffering people and the suffering is unimaginable."
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Jan 14, 2010 18:39:22 GMT -5
What's wrong with what he said? Timing may not be good but...
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Post by krazeeboi on Jan 14, 2010 21:27:05 GMT -5
I said the same thing. I can understand people possibly being upset at the timing of this statement, but I do believe there is actually some truth to it. Years ago when my aunt and her family were living in Augusta, GA, they were attending a church whose pastor was from Haiti and he essentially said the exact same thing.
As Christians, I think we've got to be careful because the media loves to take things said within a Christian context and put their own spin on it to make it seem as though Christians are insensitive, stupid, out of touch, etc. and I think sometimes (not all the time, some things the media brings up regarding matters of faith are quite legitimate) we're too quick to go along with the secular status quo on that.
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Post by krazeeboi on Jan 14, 2010 21:47:54 GMT -5
And my go-to text when events like this happen will always be Luke 13:1-5:
"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, 'Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.'"
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Post by kitty on Jan 14, 2010 23:26:30 GMT -5
hey Guys,
I for one am most definitely offended by the statement...
It suggests that their desires not to be opposed in their homeland by the French went against God's wishes... To the point of saying that the devil NOT GOD game them their freedom!
Since when was the devil in the business of ever freeing people from oppression or bondage! The devil is a liar! And we are wrong to try to d**n a whole country like that!
Kitty
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Post by anointedteacher on Jan 15, 2010 1:08:38 GMT -5
I am greived too... Many of these preachers also believe that black are cursed because of Ham... The ppl here in So Florida are hurting, they have family over in Haiti and the last thing they need to hear, is a some old white preacher telling them that they are cursed.... I know witchcraft are strong in Haiti, but it also in Cuba and here in the US. What he said, may be true, I don't know... many time they read things without verifying if it true or something someone made up like the Ham story. Pat Robertson need to learn wisdom and keep his mouth shut. He should be praying for them, not cursing... The Church should use this opportunity to minister and reach out to the hurting ppl...
I have a cousin who used to do mission in Haiti, I don't think he there right now. I don't have his number... I will have my sister to check and see.
Pres. Obama is really a blessing... he let them know that they are not forsaken, very encouraging.
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Post by Nikkol on Jan 15, 2010 8:13:08 GMT -5
hey Guys, I for one am most definitely offended by the statement... It suggests that their desires not to be opposed in their homeland by the French went against God's wishes... To the point of saying that the devil NOT GOD game them their freedom! Since when was the devil in the business of ever freeing people from oppression or bondage! The devil is a liar! And we are wrong to try to d**n a whole country like that! Kitty I think that one thing that we have to keep in mind is that just because someone got freedom doesn't mean it was God-led. We know even nowadays that we can go ahead of God and do things our OWN way. His statement doesn't mean that their desire was wrong. However, the way you fulfill that desire could be wrong.......then again, I am assuming that you believe that only God gives this type of freedom.... the devil LOVES to imitate and if he can do something to make ppl believe him, he will.....but you were right to say that he's a liar. The devil will do/try anything he can to get you......many ppl make pacts with the devil.....there are ppl that are even devil worshippers. Anyways, here's a snippet of 2 articles that I found in my perusing: CULTURAL NOTESIn Haiti there are four religions: Catholic , Protestant, Islamic , and Voodoo. Although the official religion of Haiti, as inherited from the French colonialists, is Roman Catholicism, about 50% of the population believes in Voodooism, a religion that arose from the slavery-era. The Voodoo religion has been the subject of much repression and misunderstanding in the country's history. Some Christian missionaries incorrectly believe that it is worship of Satan. Such beliefs exist in all social strata. The ex-president of Haiti has once sacrified the Haiti country to Satan, as reported by a Christian missionary magazine at 2003. Voodoo is a religion born in slavery,in which they were forced to paint themselves in black so thatis why today Haitien's why black even though they were white before. Voodoo : which blends together a number of traditional African beliefs with elements from other faiths, notably Catholicism, the religion of the slave-owners, with which it has always been an uncomfortable bed-fellow. .................... Government Of The Devil, By The Devil, And For The Devil
By Tom Barrett (03/11/04) "Haiti is the only country in the entire world that has dedicated its government to Satan. Demonic spirits have been consulted for political decisions, and have shaped the country's history." Thus speaks Reverend Doug Anderson, who grew up in Haiti with missionary parents, and served there along with his wife Dawn as a missionary until 1990. The leaders of Haiti make no attempt to hide their allegiance to Satan. Haiti’s government is a government of the devil, by the devil, and for the devil.............. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ This does NOT mean that we shouldn't help which is what he said and also said that we should pray. However, like KRAZEE said, the media loves just taking a piece of something and just running with it |
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Post by Nikkol on Jan 15, 2010 8:31:53 GMT -5
I am greived too... Many of these preachers also believe that black are cursed because of Ham... The ppl here in So Florida are hurting, they have family over in Haiti and the last thing they need to hear, is a some old white preacher telling them that they are cursed.... I know witchcraft are strong in Haiti, but it also in Cuba and here in the US. What he said, may be true, I don't know... many time they read things without verifying if it true or something someone made up like the Ham story. Pat Robertson need to learn wisdom and keep his mouth shut. He should be praying for them, not cursing... The Church should use this opportunity to minister and reach out to the hurting ppl... I have a cousin who used to do mission in Haiti, I don't think he there right now. I don't have his number... I will have my sister to check and see. Pres. Obama is really a blessing... he let them know that they are not forsaken, very encouraging. 1. One has to be careful when using the word "many". 2. Ppl hurting/offended doesn't mean that a person can't say something. I think that there are those on this message board that have been in services of heard of people needing to pray/delivered from generational curses -- things that their for-fathers did....I did put up an article written years ago in reference to the pact that was made. He stated what would be seen as fact from a missonary that did work there.... 3. based on your using "old white preacher", would your thoughts be the same and would you use the same language had the man when black "ie. old black preacher" 4. I don't think I read where he cursed them....did you? 5. Witchcraft is strong in areas other than Haiti...and I think that we can all agree that the other areas you've mentioned have seen their share of disasters.....right? From CBN Website: Statement Regarding Pat Robertson's Comments on Haiti CBN.com – VIRGINIA BEACH, Va., January 13, 2010 -- On today’s The 700 Club, during a segment about the devastation, suffering and humanitarian effort that is needed in Haiti, Dr. Robertson also spoke about Haiti’s history. His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed. Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering. Chris Roslan Spokesman for CBN |
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Post by kitty on Jan 15, 2010 9:11:08 GMT -5
Hey Guys,
I don't care what anybody says... These statements are outta line! Way outta line!
If these statements are based on a slave rebellion... Then people need to recall that those white folks that came to enslaved them claimed that "their god" was Jesus Christ. So why on God's green earth, would WE THINK... For a Second... That those people who prayed to THEIR god... From protection from evil... would know that Jesus Christ was real? To them our God was being protrayed as the devil because here are these people coming on to their land claiming that their god gave them the right to harm them and enslave them.
Has anybody stopped to think that the white people who claimed to enslave them were using Christianity the same way they we view voodoo? To gain control and abuse other people? As a connection to the devil or all that is evil?
If the white folks that came to enslave them, take their land, break up their families, and rape their wives claimed that THEIR god gave them the RIGHT to do so then don't you think that they probably thought that Jesus Christ was the devil?
Nikkol... you aren't being logical in your presentation of suggesting that they went ahead of God. They didn't know Jesus Christ to start with... and the presentation they were given was false. And again to suggest that devil will free anybody from oppression is a lie!
It's like saying that Our Father... was ok with his children doing wrong... But holds the people they abused at fault for not knowing Him... Does that even make sense? Our Father in heaven is certain more wise and graceful, forgiving and providing mercy than that!
And also people let's get out of our European way of thinking... Of course ANYTHING that goes against THEM having power at that time is going to be considered Demonic! And why don't we declare that any awful thing that happens in a white country is demonic? Does any Christian leaders go back and claim that the Black plague in Europe that killed thousand was a judgement from God? Nooo they don't... because it was automaticly be considered ignorant to do. It's just based on the fact that people didn't wash their hand and didn't have indoor plumbing so disease feastered everywhere.
When 9/11 occured was that God making a judgement on us? Was that our God allowing over 2k people killed because we believed in Him? Or as the musilms may see it... God's judgement on us for believing in the false god jesus? See how easy that can be twisted depending on a certain person point of view?
Kitty
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Post by kitty on Jan 15, 2010 9:25:20 GMT -5
hey Guys...
Check out this article...then let's ask ourselves... Why don't we ever decide that the French would be cursed?
Farai ChideyaMulti-media journalist and author
Posted: January 14, 2010
Haiti Is Cursed -- By Our Ignorance
Those who know a little of Haiti's history might have watched the news last night and thought, as I did for a moment: "An earthquake? What next? Poor Haiti is cursed."
The author, Tracy Kidder is a well-respected journalist who penned Mountains Beyond Mountains, about public health guru Paul Farmer and his work in Haiti. But to use the "cursed" meme to sell people on an otherwise uncontroversial op-ed seems, to me, sensationalistic at best and at worst irresponsible. The word conjures up racialized images of voodoo (the fact that voudoun is actually a religion and not just a mockery is another battle I can't even fight here) that people with far worse intentions are all too eager to exploit.
Take, for example, evangelist Pat Robertson, who says that Haiti "swore a pact with the devil" to become free of the French. (See the video below.)
The truth is far more inspiring, humbling, maddening, and challenging to our notions of freedom. The Devil probably could have cut Haiti a better deal than the French did. (And can we just talk about who that woman is sitting next to Pat Robertson and how she can stand looking at herself in the mirror after murmuring assent to Robertson's words?) After being defeated militarily by revolutionary Toussaint L'Ouverture, the French colonial powers who held Haiti demanded reparations in the form of 150 million gold francs in order to recognize the new, free nation. That number was later, generously of course, reduced to 90 million gold francs, or over $20 billion current U.S. dollars.
The ripple effect of this bargain cannot be underestimated. A free Haiti was hobbled economically from the start. They did not finish paying off the "independence debt" to france until 1947. The triangle of Haitian/French/US relations also paved the way for the Louisiana Purchase, which expanded and enriched the United States. Deposed former Haitian President Jean Bertrand Aristide wanted to get the money back from France. The current President has forgone any such claims. (A good primer on the claim for the return of the money comes from this article from the Wall Street Journal.)
At a time when racialized language is under deep scrutiny (just call Harry Reid), we have to realize that the meme of the "curse" has its own racial baggage in this context. It's a phantasmagorical way of dis-engaging Western history from the literal rubble of Haiti. Just as individual enslaved people in America worked day to day to buy their freedom, the Haitian people collectively worked themselves to the bone to buy theirs. But freedom without resource is a shaky freedom indeed. The enslaved Americans who worked themselves free and gained manumission often found themselves, both before and after the end of slavery, in a form of legal limbo, where their few rights (and land and possessions) as free blacks could be taken away by a capricious legal system, with lynching as a lever for those who stood too proudly. It was precisely the legal technique of inverse reparations -- in this case, "reparations" that Haiti paid to the French -- that set the foundation for the massive poverty of the nation.
We use language, like the selective telling of history, to confuse things sometimes. So Haiti becomes "cursed" instead of shackled by a post-Colonial debt that no Western nation ever had to bear. (Can you imagine if the U.S. had to pay England for its freedom? Talk about taxation without representation.)
I imagine, somehow, what might have happened had the billions of dollars in gold not been exported out of Haiti but helped to build its infrastructure and education. I imagine the fallen buildings rising off of the broken bodies, and rearranging themselves into new shapes: stronger, earthquake-resistant schools, homes, and roads; a countryside not stripped by the desperation of deforestation; and then, in this alternate Haiti, the stronger one built by its hard-earned resources, an earthquake could still hit, but the country would withstand more of nature's blows and remain a land blessed by the fruits of the hard work of its people.
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Post by anointedteacher on Jan 15, 2010 11:32:31 GMT -5
I am greived too... Many of these preachers also believe that black are cursed because of Ham... The ppl here in So Florida are hurting, they have family over in Haiti and the last thing they need to hear, is a some old white preacher telling them that they are cursed.... I know witchcraft are strong in Haiti, but it also in Cuba and here in the US. What he said, may be true, I don't know... many time they read things without verifying if it true or something someone made up like the Ham story. Pat Robertson need to learn wisdom and keep his mouth shut. He should be praying for them, not cursing... The Church should use this opportunity to minister and reach out to the hurting ppl... I have a cousin who used to do mission in Haiti, I don't think he there right now. I don't have his number... I will have my sister to check and see. Pres. Obama is really a blessing... he let them know that they are not forsaken, very encouraging. 1. One has to be careful when using the word "many". I remember some years back when Fred Price did a great teaching on racism in the church. It was very interesting and it hit most of the white ministers where the truth hurt, they first rejected the teaching till he deal with the black muslim. Just like there are generational curses that been passed down, there also generational mentalilty that are passed down... Most if not all of the older white ministers did not eat at the same resturant with black and didn't want black around... Black was not allowed in their church, schools, or seminaries... study the history of the COGIC and Pastor Mason... Each gnerations have been raise in thinking they are superior to black... My mother told they couldn't step foot into a white church, not even asking for a glass of water when they were traveling, they could actually get shot! Don't think for a minute they have changed. I know about generational curses... My mother & I, aunt and sister had Haitian foster kids... a few of their parents were witch doctors. I took in a Haitian friendwho needed a place to stay, and learn that she was delicated to satan... She told me the witch doctors were prepared to eat her at 3... she was real sick till her took her to her father (who also a witch doctor) to Bahammar. This lady is a minister.. she fight with all kinds of demons, she is constantly attached... I had to be prayed up while she was living with me... The question , was it the right time to bring this up, while many are in shock, hurting, confuse, in pain, sick and not really in their right mind... There are many Christians the love the Lord there in Haiti, that die, or ijured or lost the love ones.... Was this message meant for the media?... or should it have been among mature Christians, that understand and comprehan what curses is Biblically? No... Because we not trained to believe that black ppl are inferior and cursed... But it would still be wrong to speak it out in the public, unless God have commanded... He consider them as being cursed Very strong, but not stronger than the power of God!!! MY dear friend actually saw a man convert to a dog... And her sister converted into different image before her eyes.. As Kitty said.... it was easy to reject the God of the white man, because it taught that they were cursed with Ham, they were not human and didn't deserve to be treated as human... they were animals and was brough and sold like animals... Jesus was not presented to them as a loving kind God that die for their sin. So What are the curse for those who made the Holy Righteous God, look evil to those who needed Him. |
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Post by Nikkol on Jan 15, 2010 11:58:19 GMT -5
What we know is that when ppl have sought truth, they've found Jesus. One person who went to my husband's old church talked about how Jesus revealed himself to her and it was a BLESSING that the missionaries came over (I think she was in Africa/Haiti...can't recall) because they were about to sacrifice her to one of their gods based on her vision. Of course I wasn't around when the missionaries came over and so for me to speak on what their thoughts were or what happened would be presumptuous on my part. Based on the story I told above, they may not have had a great understanding of Jesus. But if they sought truth, Jesus does reveal himself to his ppl. Not sure what the presentation was so I can't speak on that either. But this wouldn't be something that we could agree on because the fact that someone becomes free from something doesn't mean that it was the right timing or that it was God led..... Can you expound? I'm not understanding. Our thinking should be spiritual. Not "european", "haitian", etc. Additionally, if you type in google "Black plague in Europe judgment of God" you will find articles that indicate that it was "commonly accepted" as God's punishment. So, there's no reason perse to "go back" but rather we can see from articles in the past that this was noted. I believe that many did mention that as being God's judgment in America. Not sure how 2K ppl being killed is based on believing in Him. I think that it's common knowledge that those who are saved are few. The downward road is the crowded road. I also don't think that Muslims attacked based on us following Jesus there is an article HERE that actually discusses that particular question. |
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Post by kitty on Jan 15, 2010 12:35:29 GMT -5
Nikkol,
I have never seen or heard ANY preacher declare that the Black Plague was "commonly accepted" as a God judgement... Have you? Sure I agree that someone some where was bound to say it in the since that with most natural disasters people claim that it was an act of God showing His displeasure. But to say that is commonly accepted in the Christian community is going a bit far.
Nikkol i think you are still wanting to believe that the victims are at fault because they didn't know Jesus... Sure i believe that Jesus does reveal himself to those that seek Him but why would these people even have a reason to do so? They have a group of people trying to oppress them that say that Jesus is THEIR God...
AT I agree with you. Like you I would ask the same... Where are the commonly believed curses of those who mis-represented Jesus Christ? France drained all of the gold and resources of the land that God gave to Haiti and asked for billions of dollars up to 1947. Why don't we declare France as being cursed? Why don't we declare that God will smash them with His wrath?
Wicca was developed and came from Europe... we don't we declare Europe as being cursed?
Nikkol I agree we probably will not see eye to eye on this topic... But i do hope that you can see that one could easily declare any place and anybody as being cursed by God when we don't agree with them. We can't we declare Haiti to be like Job?
Kitty
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Post by kitty on Jan 15, 2010 12:47:45 GMT -5
By the way Nikkol...
Even if I were to agree with you that it was possible that their freedom may not have been God lead... What gives ANYBODY the Right or the proof to say that it isn't?
God wouldn't have been for any Christians coming in and stealing and killing and taking people as slaves. So the people who were enslaving them didn't have God's blessing... So why wouldn't God have been for the people trying to save themselves...
We know of several times in the bible when God went against His people in battle and wars when they were outta His will. Why wouldn't that have been the case here? Those people in the bibical times may have prayed to their false gods for victory as well but we know that it was God who gave them the victory. Why wouldn't that be the case here?
Also Nikkol... we all know that God reveals Himself when He desires. You are also making the assumption that God had chose to reveal Himself to those people at that time. We are declaring to know the will of God about a people who were mistreated by Christians... This is something that we couldn't possible know for sure. All statement are really purely based on opinion and false judgements of man. We have no idea whatGod thinks about what happened. It is wrong to suggest we know His mind on this matter. I think Pat Robertson and all others are out outta line and outta God's will for make such statements.
Kitty
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Post by Nikkol on Jan 15, 2010 13:52:14 GMT -5
And there are black churches that are the same way. My point is that it goes both ways....at the same time, i am careful not to use the word "many" because truth be told, we would be hard pressed to prove that it's many....
I think that we all know that saved and unsaved ppl die all the time. Does that take away the fact that the land is said to be cursed? No. PLEASE NOTE THAT I DON'T KNOW EITHER WAY IF THIS IS TRUE OR NOT. I have heard that at funerals, one could indicate from the message that their loved one was in hell....yet I don't think that most saved ppl would say that that shouldn't be brought up because they are hurting. Rather it would be seen as a way of saying, "You need to get your life together".
And I don't think that most ppl have a misunderstanding about what curses mean/are. Just that noone wants to believe that what their forefathers have done has impacted them like this.
In scripture we see that on different occasions, people were pricked in their hearts and caused them to ask what they needed to do.....is it possible that this may cause ppl to ask what they must do? Yes. Is it possible that he said what God said? Yes. Can we know which he used? Possibly....
I think it was moreso the region not particular people. It's not flesh and blood...but pricipalities, rulers of darkness, etc.
Just like you previously said that nothing is stronger than the power of God, we know that for some of our ancestors, Jesus wasn't rejected in spite of the abuse. We know there were ppl that even during slavery still held on to Jesus. So it is possible. However it's all based on the drawing power of Jesus...
I think that the scripture talks about those who offend even the little ones. At the same time, if they repented, they can be forgiven just like anyone else. Same with this, if this is what happened, the ppl should repent for the sins of their forefathers. I know that I've seen in scripture we see the people that are praying and asking for forgiveness for their ppl.
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