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Post by krazeeboi on Dec 27, 2008 15:52:21 GMT -5
Krazeboi, What do you mean when you say that,"the bible doesn't treat marriage that way." I think it does.... and in a very basic way as well. First and foremost God wants us to follow His word. When it comes to marriage God gives some examples of instruction of who to marry. In general God doesn't want us to marry those who don't belive in Him or follow other gods. In general we all know that the act of sex is not to occur outside of marriage. We know that it is better to marry than to burn, that we should not commit adultry or fornication. We know that people shouldn't share partners or have multiple wives. So in this very basic sense unless a person can honestly say to themselves that they don't have a desire for sex. Can see themselves never again and for most people that would also include masterbation.... Then it would be a safe assumption that God's will includes marriage for the majority of people... not a handful. I think the biggest hang up that we as Christians have is figuring out how much direct influence God is going to have on the choice of who we pick to marry. In some cases God may hand pick and make His will clear... on other cases God's hand may not be so apparent.... and so cases who to marry is simply up to us... whether that is a good choice or a bad choice. I think this fact is the biggest pill to swallow... But other wise... I think the bible does make God will clear to us about marriage. Kitty I think there may be some misunderstanding because I essentially agree with just about everything you've said. But from what I see, from both Jesus and Paul, marriage is a decision that an individual makes for him/herself. That's what I was trying to get across. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Dec 27, 2008 15:54:38 GMT -5
I just think that it's interesting that the Bible doesn't treat marriage that way. I disagree. While I will agree that Bible does not lay out a specific agenda for seeking a psouse per se, it does give a great many instructions on the KIND of spouse we should seek. I totally agree. I think there was some misunderstanding on my part. I was only trying to say that the Bible presents marriage as a choice that we make, not something compulsory--mainly because there are trade-offs, give-and-takes. |
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Post by giantsdodie on Dec 27, 2008 15:57:43 GMT -5
Krazeboi, What do you mean when you say that,"the bible doesn't treat marriage that way." I think it does.... and in a very basic way as well. First and foremost God wants us to follow His word. When it comes to marriage God gives some examples of instruction of who to marry. In general God doesn't want us to marry those who don't belive in Him or follow other gods. In general we all know that the act of sex is not to occur outside of marriage. We know that it is better to marry than to burn, that we should not commit adultry or fornication. We know that people shouldn't share partners or have multiple wives. So in this very basic sense unless a person can honestly say to themselves that they don't have a desire for sex. Can see themselves never again and for most people that would also include masterbation.... Then it would be a safe assumption that God's will includes marriage for the majority of people... not a handful. I think the biggest hang up that we as Christians have is figuring out how much direct influence God is going to have on the choice of who we pick to marry. In some cases God may hand pick and make His will clear... on other cases God's hand may not be so apparent.... and so cases who to marry is simply up to us... whether that is a good choice or a bad choice. I think this fact is the biggest pill to swallow... But other wise... I think the bible does make God will clear to us about marriage. Kitty I think there may be some misunderstanding because I essentially agree with just about everything you've said. But from what I see, from both Jesus and Paul, marriage is a decision that an individual makes for him/herself. That's what I was trying to get across. God never removes a persons free will. A person can always make a choice... However that doesnt negate a person seeking GOD's will.. I knew before I was married that it was God's will for me because HE told me it was... And He told me why... Specifically HE said that HE was re-establishing the patriarchs in my family lineage. He told me specifically that I would have three children... I know that at least two of those three are boys.... Cant re-establish patriarches without boys... and I have their names already as well as their specific ministry gifts... So while you are 100% correct I could have chosen NOT to marry... yet why wouldnt I choose what is GOD's will... |
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Post by krazeeboi on Dec 28, 2008 17:50:09 GMT -5
Right, but why is it that when it comes to marriage specifically, the Bible never says, "Pray and see if it's God's will for you to be married?" You can say that it's covered under Proverbs 3:6, but it strikes me as unusually strange that of all of the detailed instruction we have about marriage in scripture, particularly from Jesus and Paul, nothing like that is said whatsoever. It is strictly presented as a choice that a person makes for him/herself, not a choice that God makes for us. That much cannot be denied.
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Post by vin on Dec 28, 2008 19:01:31 GMT -5
I think my understanding (escpecially after following this thread) is this.... I would say that YES I believe that God is a match maker. BEcause. Even when I have gone to God and expressed to Him what I desire, what I feel I need, what I must have, what I can't or won't tolerate.....no matter how specific I am in those requests, I have no way of knowing who the man is who fits that description or who has those qualities and characteristics.
But God does. So what I should be doing is going to Him with my heart's desires (which He gave to me in the first place) and then TRUST HIM to bring me face to face with the man who is the fulfillment of those prayers and desires.
My mistake in the past was that after I went to God with the desire of my heart I then began to try to decide who was the fulfillment of it. So if I knew and guy and he was pretty much all of what I desired I would go to God and say, "See, nobody's perfect! I'm not perfect! I can work with that!" And that could be what's happening with a lot of people that's causing marriages to fail.
But what I believe is that God knows better that anyone who really is the answer to my prayers. He knows better what I need as well as what I desire. He knows where that man is just like He knows where I am. And once I admitted that I don't know how to decide (ON MY OWN) who really is the answer to my prayers then I really do need to rely on the one I prayed to, because if God doesn't know, then nobody does.
I'm also seeing that if a person doesn't have a desire to be married then that may be or must be God's will for them at least at this season in their life. But if we are coming to a season in our life where God is ready to bring a spouse to walk with us, then (unless we're in denial or fighting against His will) we will begin to desire marriage. There's nothing wrong with wanting to remain single. But we also need to know that God is not in the business of giving us desires for things that He has no intention of giving us.
He gives us our heart's desires so that He can give us our heart's desires.
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Post by krazeeboi on Dec 28, 2008 23:48:01 GMT -5
I'm also seeing that if a person doesn't have a desire to be married then that may be or must be God's will for them at least at this season in their life. But if we are coming to a season in our life where God is ready to bring a spouse to walk with us, then (unless we're in denial or fighting against His will) we will begin to desire marriage. There's nothing wrong with wanting to remain single. But we also need to know that God is not in the business of giving us desires for things that He has no intention of giving us. He gives us our heart's desires so that He can give us our heart's desires.That's another sentiment I wanted to express but didn't really have the adequate words for it. You said it better than I ever could. |
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Dec 29, 2008 7:10:54 GMT -5
As I was reading this thread (again) I began to wonder how this question would be answered using only scripture examples as evidence without anyone's personal testimony? The reason I ask is that in addition to the personal testimonies of believers, I find the biblical love stories very interesting..............
For example, as a young girl I use to love hearing how Isaiah loved Rebeccah and he was consoled after his mothers death by marrying her. But again, a closer look shows us that Rebeccah was a cunning, sneaky and deceitful wife when it came to her sons Jacob and Esau.
I also loved hearing the story of Jacob and Rachel, the first account of 'love at first sight' in the bible. He loved her so much that he worked seven years for her, then another seven after he was tricked into marrying her sister. HOWEVER upon closer examination, we learn that Rachel was an idol worshipper, and also, could not have been God's first choice for Jacob seeing that Jesus blood line traces back to Judah the son of Jacob and Leah.
I know Adam and Eve is always used as an example to say yes, God is a matchmaker. I even used them myself, always pointing out that God placed the woman in the mans life (careful to add after he gave him a job to do and a place to live, lol) and man recognized her as 'bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh.' but is that really a fair assessment? What would the alternative have been? To create five or six Eve's and let Adam choose? No, it seems God made a partner for every animal and did the same for man and man made that statement in the most logical sense, she is bone of my bone, created from my bone, flesh of my flesh, the only other being that has flesh like me.
There are others, but I see I haven't answered my own question yet, can we use the scriptures to answer this question, yes or no?
Well, God did manuever things so that Leah did wind up with Jacob even though it wasn't Jacob's first choice. And inspite of Rebecca's manipulation, he allowed her and Isaac to grow old together. And even after Eve's deception and Adam's fall, they stayed together for hundreds of years, each couple accomplishing the will of God in their own way.
Perhaps there are certain people God puts together in the most unique ways strickly to accomplish his will. And then there are others whom he allows to marry as they choose and gives mercy and grace at his own discretion in those types of marriages.
And the main dilema may be that a person thinks they are destined to be one of the ones God will use extrodinary measures to marry off when really, that is not the case, they are pretty much free to marry whom they choose, in Christ, with his leading of course but not necessarily miraculous signs and wonders and prophecies, if that makes any sense at all.
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Post by krazeeboi on Dec 29, 2008 9:11:47 GMT -5
^Really good assessment GAP. I'm pretty much in agreement here.
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Post by kitty on Dec 29, 2008 10:08:51 GMT -5
Hey Gap,
I agree... Many of us may not be one of the Ones that God is going to operate through prophesy. And I think we as saints, especially women are getting into trouble when we decide that God HAS to operate this way in our lives.
Do I think God is a MatchMaker... absolutely! I even own a book called, " God is a Match Maker" By Derek Prince. It gives a wonderful account of God working in Derek Prince's life as well as things we should allow know about marriage as Christians...
But most importantly I think we have stop thinking that God is NOT involved if we can't see His hand... God may have a marriage planned but may not give a prophesy, may not give a dream... But if we find a person that loves us, has a solid relationship with God, is SANE and Stable, AND wants to marry and spend their lives with us... Then why can't we decide that's God's blessing and will?
Especially because as you pointed out Gap... in some of the marriages where God placed the people together... Those mates weren't without some major faults... such as Eve and let's not forget Gomer.
Kitty
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Post by vin on Dec 29, 2008 12:34:18 GMT -5
GAP and Kitty you guys make a lot of sense. And again I think I'm getting more clarity even for myself. God deals with all of us differently. We are all made up differrently, have different temperments, personalities, charateristics and so our thinking is different. But being different isn't necessarily wrong. God deals with us according to how He made us.
It seems that about every point of view can find support in the scriptures, so that shows too that it's okay to be different, or that it won't happen the same for everybody.
Gap your post also reinforces what I've said before too, that just because we know God put us together or ordained for us to be together doesn't mean there won't be issues to deal with. Being perfect for each other doesn't mean we're perfect individuals. We all have shortcomings, faults, weaknesses or whatever you want to call them. But God can still bless you to marry someone and use the both of you to do great things. It's one of the things that makes love so beautiful....that we can be loved because of who we are and in spite of who we are. Sometimes the person who loves you loves you because of something that you think should turn them away. You may see it as a turnoff, and it may be the thing that drew them to you in the first place.
It's like God choosing us and using us not so much in spite of our brokenness but actually, because of our brokenness.
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Post by giantsdodie on Dec 29, 2008 12:43:33 GMT -5
Right, but why is it that when it comes to marriage specifically, the Bible never says, "Pray and see if it's God's will for you to be married?" You can say that it's covered under Proverbs 3:6, but it strikes me as unusually strange that of all of the detailed instruction we have about marriage in scripture, particularly from Jesus and Paul, nothing like that is said whatsoever. It is strictly presented as a choice that a person makes for him/herself, not a choice that God makes for us. That much cannot be denied. My problem with this view is that the Bible doesnt not seek to answer every single question in the greatest possible detail over every iota of our lives. So while it does give a lot of advice about marriage it doesnt give us EVERY detail regarding marriage. Some things we are going to learn in the prayer closet and through our relationship with GOD. That thread of logic can be extended... to cover our job, our lives, where we should live, etc etc.. and I have known GOD to give instructions on job, lives, where I shoudl live etc etc etc... and I have known GOD to talk about spouses in my life and in the lives of others... so while we can say the scripture doesnt SAY it... God is STILL doing it... |
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Dec 29, 2008 12:54:14 GMT -5
It's one of the things that makes love so beautiful....that we can be loved because of who we are and in spite of who we are. Sometimes the person who loves you loves you because of something that you think should turn them away. You may see it as a turnoff, and it may be the thing that drew them to you in the first place. It's like God choosing us and using us not so much in spite of our brokenness but actually, because of our brokenness. Vin, my Sister, this has got to be one of the most beautiful things I read on love in a long, long time. Thank you for sharing this point of view. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Dec 29, 2008 20:39:54 GMT -5
My problem with this view is that the Bible doesnt not seek to answer every single question in the greatest possible detail over every iota of our lives. So while it does give a lot of advice about marriage it doesnt give us EVERY detail regarding marriage. Some things we are going to learn in the prayer closet and through our relationship with GOD. That thread of logic can be extended... to cover our job, our lives, where we should live, etc etc.. and I have known GOD to give instructions on job, lives, where I shoudl live etc etc etc... and I have known GOD to talk about spouses in my life and in the lives of others... so while we can say the scripture doesnt SAY it... God is STILL doing it... I agree that the Bible doesn't cover every subject in extensive detail. But when it comes to marriage, the directives and instructions are about as extensive as it gets. Some things in scripture we don't have a lot of extensive coverage about due to the cultures of the day. Regarding occupations and such, there isn't a lot of biblical detail about that because there was a set order among the culture of Israel (and eastern cultures in general) in the times in which the Bible was written--the son took on the occupation of his father (e.g., Joseph and Jesus). Families lived in clans/tribes, and moving far away was the anomaly, not the norm. And even when it came to marriage, the natural order was for the parents to choose the child's spouse (with a few exceptions). But when you get to the most extensive passage on marriage in the Bible in 1 Corinthians, written to a culture where this was not the norm, Paul doesn't say "Ask God who you should marry." Rather, he says, "You may want to think about if you even want to get married." That's rather telling in and of itself. My point is not that God can't tell someone who to marry. He's sovereign and He can do what He wants. However, we must guard against turning descriptions into prescriptions. And as I've said before, if you ask God for wisdom, you really can't go wrong. That doesn't just apply to marriage, but to everything. |
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Post by Jasmine on Jan 27, 2009 15:02:11 GMT -5
My problem with this view is that the Bible doesnt not seek to answer every single question in the greatest possible detail over every iota of our lives. So while it does give a lot of advice about marriage it doesnt give us EVERY detail regarding marriage. Some things we are going to learn in the prayer closet and through our relationship with GOD. That thread of logic can be extended... to cover our job, our lives, where we should live, etc etc.. and I have known GOD to give instructions on job, lives, where I shoudl live etc etc etc... and I have known GOD to talk about spouses in my life and in the lives of others... so while we can say the scripture doesnt SAY it... God is STILL doing it... I agree that the Bible doesn't cover every subject in extensive detail. But when it comes to marriage, the directives and instructions are about as extensive as it gets. Some things in scripture we don't have a lot of extensive coverage about due to the cultures of the day. Regarding occupations and such, there isn't a lot of biblical detail about that because there was a set order among the culture of Israel (and eastern cultures in general) in the times in which the Bible was written--the son took on the occupation of his father (e.g., Joseph and Jesus). Families lived in clans/tribes, and moving far away was the anomaly, not the norm. And even when it came to marriage, the natural order was for the parents to choose the child's spouse (with a few exceptions). But when you get to the most extensive passage on marriage in the Bible in 1 Corinthians, written to a culture where this was not the norm, Paul doesn't say "Ask God who you should marry." Rather, he says, "You may want to think about if you even want to get married." That's rather telling in and of itself. My point is not that God can't tell someone who to marry. He's sovereign and He can do what He wants. However, we must guard against turning descriptions into prescriptions. And as I've said before, if you ask God for wisdom, you really can't go wrong. That doesn't just apply to marriage, but to everything. Your latter paragraph goes along with what I heard someone say today. It was interesting. They said: "God doesn't choose our mates. We bring him the strings and He ties them together." |
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