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Post by nina2 on Dec 13, 2008 7:14:43 GMT -5
Finally, did/do we, as Christians, go to some extremes as far as either preventing some "knowledge and understanding" from being made available and shared?
I would say my answer to that is: yes.
And the reason for my answer being yes is that it was done, through the centuries and even now, mostly, out of fear. More precisely fear of loss of temporal power from the leadership(s) and, on the heels of that, greed.
When it comes to spiritual matters, ignorance is not bliss.....
I have to believe, because he says so, that wherever he takes me and leads me, that He will keep me IF I am obedient to His spirit, and also, as the scripture says, that with wisdom comes "prudence"......
When the new year comes around - and it is near - and you hear all the preaching and excitement about what number 9 - as in 2009 - is going to mean for that new year, then remember where that "knowledge" comes from ;D
PS: The Magi did not "miss the spot". They saw the star "at its rising" and knew specifically that the child being born was the "King of the Jews". So, they set out on their journey, logically, to Jerusalem, in Israel, to WORSHIP HIM....
And, when they enquired from the current king of Israel, and came out, they saw the star again which guided them to Bethlehem and they rejoiced.... Went to Bethlehem and WORSHIPPED HIM...
God made sure those magi went back "home", wherever that was, safely and with a message, and divinely let them know to go back there by another way. He kept them!
Herod AND the ones who did know the scriptures never knew that the child was born and where, he ordered the slaughter of all the male children in Israel two years old and younger.
So, the message to the sheperds never even reached Jerusalem or anywhere in between.....
His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.
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Post by giantsdodie on Dec 13, 2008 10:52:49 GMT -5
Finally, did/do we, as Christians, go to some extremes as far as either preventing some "knowledge and understanding" from being made available and shared? I would say my answer to that is: yes. And the reason for my answer being yes is that it was done, through the centuries and even now, mostly, out of fear. More precisely fear of loss of temporal power from the leadership(s) and, on the heels of that, greed. When it comes to spiritual matters, ignorance is not bliss..... I have to believe, because he says so, that wherever he takes me and leads me, that He will keep me IF I am obedient to His spirit, and also, as the scripture says, that with wisdom comes "prudence"...... When the new year comes around - and it is near - and you hear all the preaching and excitement about what number 9 - as in 2009 - is going to mean for that new year, then remember where that "knowledge" comes from ;D PS: The Magi did not "miss the spot". They saw the star "at its rising" and knew specifically that the child being born was the "King of the Jews". So, they set out on their journey, logically, to Jerusalem, in Israel, to WORSHIP HIM.... And, when they enquired from the current king of Israel, and came out, they saw the star again which guided them to Bethlehem and they rejoiced.... Went to Bethlehem and WORSHIPPED HIM... God made sure those magi went back "home", wherever that was, safely and with a message, and divinely let them know to go back there by another way. He kept them! Herod AND the ones who did know the scriptures never knew that the child was born and where, he ordered the slaughter of all the male children in Israel two years old and younger. So, the message to the sheperds never even reached Jerusalem or anywhere in between..... His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. My point is this... They did miss the spot. They didnt arrive in Jerusalem. And they didnt arrive at the TIME of his birth... The point was to illustrate the DIFFERENCE between hearing directly from GOD which should be the state of ALL christians... and interpreting a SIGN from the heavens.... Which is simply my point.. God has always and will continue to reveal HIMSELF through nature.. However the BELIEVER should have a different relationship.. That is my point.. |
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Post by nina2 on Dec 13, 2008 12:39:28 GMT -5
I understand Giants.
And the story of the magi is one that implies a lot, on both sides, whether the believers of the days, or the Gentiles at large.
What I don't understand is when you say that:
when a few days ago you quoted the scripture:
How did they not come to Jerusalem??
Yes, they were not there when Jesus was born, but they started on their journey when they saw the star in its "rising"....
What I am pointing to is that they were thousands of miles a way, and however we choose to interpret it, they "got the message" and move on it.
The sheperds in Bethlehem were right next door and did not have a clue of what was going on....
Neither did the ones who were supposed to be teaching the Torah and "know" and "expect" from the word of God the coming of Messiah in their midst.
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Post by giantsdodie on Dec 14, 2008 15:50:53 GMT -5
I understand Giants. And the story of the magi is one that implies a lot, on both sides, whether the believers of the days, or the Gentiles at large. What I don't understand is when you say that: when a few days ago you quoted the scripture: How did they not come to Jerusalem?? Yes, they were not there when Jesus was born, but they started on their journey when they saw the star in its "rising".... What I am pointing to is that they were thousands of miles a way, and however we choose to interpret it, they "got the message" and move on it. The sheperds in Bethlehem were right next door and did not have a clue of what was going on.... Neither did the ones who were supposed to be teaching the Torah and "know" and "expect" from the word of God the coming of Messiah in their midst. Sorry I mis typed.. I should have said that they didnt arrive in Bethlehem... |
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Post by nina2 on Dec 16, 2008 13:20:50 GMT -5
I think I really got your point, re the part about them not going directly to Bethlehem and not arriving on the day when Jesus was born.:-)
You mentioned that your point was showing the difference between hearing directly from God and interpreting a sign.
Why did the "people of the covenant" need to hear and see a very loud message from God? They really "needed" God to spell it out for them with, after all, what could be called a big "sign"?..Without that, they would have passed by the place and never have known the child was the Messiah..
On the other hand, the magi - from the knowledge they had - knew what this star meant, and WHO was born as well.
Contrary to the story as told today, the Bible does not say that the star guided them all the way...
Which is why, after talking to the King in Jerusalem, the Bible says that then they saw the star and rejoiced and, from there,it guided them to Bethlehem at the exact house where the family lived...
So, what was driving those magi to go though such a long jpurney, possibly put their own life at stake, and finally reach their destination?
According to the Bible, only one thing: they wanted to worship him!
Should we just discard them? Or is it possible that they got there when they were supposed to, according to God's timing and purpose?
Why did God warn them and made sure that they went back safely?
Just because we don't know that part, it doesn't mean that they were/are irrelevant.....
And also, the fact is that Jesus had to be born a Jew, in Isreal, in Bethlehem. If the magi had arrived on the day of his birth, Herod would probably have ordered the slaughter of the male children immediately.
Jesus was raised according to the Law by his parents. There is timing in the Law for certain things when it comes to a male child. They had to take him to the temple in Jerusalem for him to be dedicated, named, circumcised, etc...
So, they could not have left for Egypt before all that was to be done, was done.
The alarm did not go off for Herod and the scribes and Pharisees until the magi came and asked about the King of the Jews, and Herod knew immediately that they were talking about Messiah.
To me, the magi were very relevant in God's will being done and prophecy coming to pass, and right on God's timing too.
No, we should not go looking for signs. ButIF he gives a sign, then he also gives us the power to recognize that it is from him...
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Post by giantsdodie on Dec 16, 2008 14:51:41 GMT -5
No, we should not go looking for signs. ButIF he gives a sign, then he also gives us the power to recognize that it is from him... I do not doubt their relevance to the story of Jesus birth. What I am saying is exactly what you have said here. WE as the BELIEVERS should not walk around seeking signs. We should recognize that signs and wonders FOLLOW those who believe. However our relationship should not be one that hinges on signs. NOW should God choose to reveal one then so be it.. However I have found in my research in scripture which by no means is complete that GOD tends to SPEAK to those that have covenent and relationship with HIM. HE spoke to Adam HE spoke to Abraham HE spoke to Jacob He spoke to Moses He spoke to Joshua HE spoke to David He spoke to the Prophets He spoke AS Jesus to the WORLD. He spoke to Peter He spoke to Paul He spoke to John the Revelator Same thing I have always said. God can and will continue to reveal himself to many through nature. He always has and he always will... YET when I compare the two stories in the Word of GOD I see a difference between interpreting things from the heavens and getting DIRECT information from the Lord... And I believe this is the state that WE as believers should live in.. getting clear, distinct direction from the Lord. That is all I am saying.. There is a difference.... |
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Post by livinganewlife on Dec 16, 2008 17:32:10 GMT -5
Bro GDD thanks for giving the background and for giving me insight on hearing God’s voice and how God speak to his children (believers); For me, knowing whether or not I have heard God correctly has always been a struggle….. And it is even more so of a struggle now as I am in a life changing process where I know the Lord has spoken to me about certain areas in my life…… The one thing about my situation is that God has given me clear cut information regarding the how’s and why’s of my situation….. So even though your post were about astronomy, numbers and astrology they have really help me to increase my faith in God and to hold on to his promises concerning my family / marriage to really see what the end is going to be….. I struggle in prayer many times……………………………. as when I first came to Christ I always received signs after prayer and even now I am guilty of looking for signs when God has spoken clearly to me (and has given clear instructions to me on how to proceed). For me this has always been a test of my faith but after reading these posts it really became clearer…. Even though I started thread (and haven't posted much  ) hoping to get a histroy lesson the Lord had other plans; this thread has really blessed me.... TGBTG! You just never know how God is going to move........... |
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Post by livinganewlife on Dec 16, 2008 17:38:28 GMT -5
Finally, did/do we, as Christians, go to some extremes as far as either preventing some "knowledge and understanding" from being made available and shared? I would say my answer to that is: yes. And the reason for my answer being yes is that it was done, through the centuries and even now, mostly, out of fear. More precisely fear of loss of temporal power from the leadership(s) and, on the heels of that, greed. When it comes to spiritual matters, ignorance is not bliss..... I have to believe, because he says so, that wherever he takes me and leads me, that He will keep me IF I am obedient to His spirit, and also, as the scripture says, that with wisdom comes "prudence"...... When the new year comes around - and it is near - and you hear all the preaching and excitement about what number 9 - as in 2009 - is going to mean for that new year, then remember where that "knowledge" comes from ;D PS: The Magi did not "miss the spot". They saw the star "at its rising" and knew specifically that the child being born was the "King of the Jews". So, they set out on their journey, logically, to Jerusalem, in Israel, to WORSHIP HIM.... And, when they enquired from the current king of Israel, and came out, they saw the star again which guided them to Bethlehem and they rejoiced.... Went to Bethlehem and WORSHIPPED HIM... God made sure those magi went back "home", wherever that was, safely and with a message, and divinely let them know to go back there by another way. He kept them! Herod AND the ones who did know the scriptures never knew that the child was born and where, he ordered the slaughter of all the male children in Israel two years old and younger. So, the message to the sheperds never even reached Jerusalem or anywhere in between..... His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. Nina, if the magi (astrologers) knew of the birth of Jesus and Herod did not even though he knew the scriptures.............mmmm wouldn't that suggest that the magi were in divine contact (worship) with God at some point in order to receive this knowledge? Nina, I see that you have pretty much answered this question in another post.... I didn't read your prior posts.....but please continue on if you have more........... |
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Post by giantsdodie on Dec 16, 2008 18:32:04 GMT -5
Bro GDD thanks for giving the background and for giving me insight on hearing God’s voice and how God speak to his children (believers); For me, knowing whether or not I have heard God correctly has always been a struggle….. And it is even more so of a struggle now as I am in a life changing process where I know the Lord has spoken to me about certain areas in my life…… The one thing about my situation is that God has given me clear cut information regarding the how’s and why’s of my situation….. So even though your post were about astronomy, numbers and astrology they have really help me to increase my faith in God and to hold on to his promises concerning my family / marriage to really see what the end is going to be….. I struggle in prayer many times……………………………. as when I first came to Christ I always received signs after prayer and even now I am guilty of looking for signs when God has spoken clearly to me (and has given clear instructions to me on how to proceed). For me this has always been a test of my faith but after reading these posts it really became clearer…. Even though I started thread (and haven't posted much ) hoping to get a histroy lesson the Lord had other plans; this thread has really blessed me.... TGBTG! You just never know how God is going to move........... Living if we were all honest there are all areas where we struggle with our faith. I always say this about faith. Faith is like a muscle. Most people dont realize how muscles grow.. Your muscles grow when they are stressed and you get micro tears in muscle. You actually damage the muscle. Then the body says.. uh oh.. we need MORE muscle to handle this increase in load... so it responds by making MORE muscles... Then at some point your muscles stop growing... because what you have now in terms of muscle is able to handle the load... so if you want MORE muscle.. you have to increase THE LOAD... Faith is like a muscle. It grows when it is CHALLENGED. This is why the scripture says things like we go from FAITH to FAITH. No matter what level of faith you are at, eventually you will be challenged to grow to a NEW level of faith which means.. MORE CHALLENGE... When I started my faith walk with GOD ( and all of us are to walk by faith but GOD has commissioned me to walk a great many things out by faith alone ) God would speak.. bang it would happen... God would speak.. bang it would happen... God would speak.. bang it would happen... then it was.... God would speak - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - what happened.. where is the results... And GOD said to me.. BABY FAITH is over son.. I said what  He said Baby Faith is over.. I said what do you mean. He said I have shown you that I am a GOD of my word. That what I will say I will do. When you were unsaved you had no understanding or knowledge of this so I spoke and did for you quickly so you would know that I am a GOD that will do what HE says... NOW.. just take me AT MY WORD that I WILL do it... Believe me.. even when you dont see results.. Believe me... with no SIGNS along the way.... Believe me.. BECAUSE I SAID IT.... and I have been believing for some things for well over 10 years... And I do often talk to the Lord about them and ask HIM if this is still His plan or His will and he always assures me what HIS WILL is. I often ask GOD to confirm HIS WORD.. and I ask Him to confirm it with HIS WORD... give me a scripture Lord that CONFIRMS what you are saying to me.. The Bible says that scripture is the SURER word of Prophecy 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Now once GOD confirms it.. THATS IT... Now along the way you will have to speak faith. You will have to war with your Prophecy. You will have to CHOOSE to continue to believe GOD. There is NO ONE on this planet that is not challenged in faith. But how you RESPOND to the challenge is all the difference. Thats why I say that the position of the saints should not be to look for signs or even asking GOD to provide them. But to know HIS WILL and to walk in HIS WILL. |
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) hoping to get a histroy lesson the Lord had other plans; this thread has really blessed me....
He said Baby Faith is over.. I said what do you mean. He said I have shown you that I am a GOD of my word. That what I will say I will do. When you were unsaved you had no understanding or knowledge of this so I spoke and did for you quickly so you would know that I am a GOD that will do what HE says...