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Post by Nikkol on Apr 2, 2009 21:37:46 GMT -5
Nikkol, Honestly when I think about it, even though all of what you said is true and is happening... I don't recall growing up with very many black homes broken because the man ran off. Those families were together a lot longer than they are now. Men stuck with their families a lot longer than they do now. Now they don't even stay long enough to do much more than get a woman pregnant. I think that different generations have their own issues…..and of course based on the generation as well as the demographic location, we both can see different things. However, I think that percentage wise, the amount of single black family homes vs. married black family homes in US would show how greatly the “slavery mentality” was ingrained in “us” (general) and that single homes would dominate. I think that although you have only heard of it recently, it is moreso that there are now words put around for certain things. This is why I specifically included more than just the “white man” for that was only part of the issue. But now you have this “generational curse”, if you will that has held on to black men. You have some really good black men that are doing their job and are still getting harassed by police. I can’t tell you the number of times my husband has gotten pulled over; not because he did anything wrong but because of the type of car he drives. Too much help? Lets look at what “help” I see. Those of welfare can’t have a “man/husband” or they’ll get cut off. Women having more kids to get more money. And women are QUICK to say “I don’t need you anyway”. Though he’s not “black” (smile) Being in a place where many good black men were denied positions because of their color. Jobs given to ppl that have less degrees and less experience. For some black men, they aren’t around any men who are “well to do” so you have the other kids that get to talk to other kids of “higher class” and are able to use that to get into certain careers as well as colleges. When this is all that some of our black men can see, it becomes easy to feel like “giving up”. And so even us having a “black president” does give some of our young men hope and that’s good. Any way that can break the cycle should be encouraged. Now of course first of all, with this, I believe that more children are born in single households which would also put a lot of blame not just on the man but on the woman as well. Do you believe that only men are making excuses? Marriage/Relationship/Parenting takes both. I will admit that there’s a lack of education but it is on both the man AND the woman. (hence the discussion that the gender lines have been blurred and it really makes both men and women not know what to do -- this is also why I used as a backdrop what scripture has told women to do). The church (traditional) has taken the word "submission" and made it like a curse. It doesn't mean I'm LESS THAN my man. I'm not less important, less valuable to God or less anointed. It just means that God has an order and that order calls for the woman to "place herself under the authority" of her husband. We're built differently emotionally and physically but we are not beneath men. God gave each a role but men don't fulfill their roles enough so women are left trying to do both, which they can't. Women say, "I got to be mama and daddy", but that's not true. A woman can't be daddy no matter what. She can only be Mama, with our without a daddy. Only a man can be daddy. Women aren’t “less than”. The roles are different but both working together. Men do try to fulfill their roles at different times to just be “knocked down” by the woman….. And let’s remember that scriptures give us examples of woman who usurp authority or use her “ways” to get a man to do what she wants. The church hasn’t made “submission into a “curse”; rather the feminist movement did a good job of that. Burning bras and “wearing pants” (ie wearing the pants in the family) and the “I can do anything men can do better.” does do damage The scripture says: Pr 18:22 - Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD. In context, the scripture is talking moreso about who’s looking. This is why it says not only is it a good thing but that they obtain favor of the Lord. I do believe that Jakes did a pretty good teaching about this. I do believe that even in looking at the “chivalry” if you will, it was always the man that asked the woman and as the man who is the head of the household, it does make sense why the man would look and the wife would be found. I can tell by many of the things that you wrote that you’ve been hurt before. From that perspective I can see why you would see this issue in the way that you’ve stated. At the same time, I know that if I were a man and read what you wrote here, it appears that you’re putting all men in the same category and would appear to be “downing men” (and many men are already down enough). And the last thing we want is another “nagging woman”. (smile) -- and even in that, some of the ways that we can speak to men is just horrible….. And after all is said and done, what can we do? What should we do? Tell men they need to stop making us pick up all the slack? And more importantly, in a time by which a higher percentage of these kids are being born in single family homes what should we be doing? This is why I’ve said before on another thread that we really need to go back and start teaching our women as the bible says and teaching our men as the bible says….for if one is taught without the other, there will still be issues and the cycle will continue. And I know you’re not fussing. Just being passionate. I respect that. (smile)
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Post by Nikkol on Apr 2, 2009 21:51:58 GMT -5
They are "trained" to believe that it's right to be treated that way. They are trained that they must submit or suffer the consequences. The same is true of the whole belief system. They believe that every one else will ultimately submit to them or be killed. Of course they won't admit to that. But who hasn't been "trained". We're even told to train our children in the way they should go. Yet, we know the word of G-d is our guide. Submission really isn't a bad thing and I've found that the more I learn that (and I'm still learning) it definitely takes stress off of me. (less health issues)
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Post by nina2 on Apr 3, 2009 4:19:54 GMT -5
[/b]
I just have to say a few things regarding the religion of Islam, Muslims in general, and Muslim women in particular:
- Most people today have some kind of "information" about the religion of Islam based on what has been done by and seen of the fundamentalist Muslims of the world. They do NOT represent the entire Muslim world of muslim believers and it would be a grave mistake to lump all of them it that very specific "branch" of Islam.
Even though, tragically, it is true, they are not the majority. Women, in countries lead by fundamentalists are treated as sub-species of the human race and I don't believe they should be mentioned as an example.
- I have lived in countries where the muslim population was the majority. And I can say that one of the greatest lies ever perpetrated was to say that "Islam is the religion of the black man", period. It is not, and never was true! That's number one.
Number two is that Islam, as it is "taught" in the US, is certainly different on many levels from how it is taught, but most of all LIVED on an every day basis, whether at home, or on the job, etc.... in other parts of the world.
So, it is important not to generalize and, again, not to put everybody in the same basket. It is even more important to keep in mind how important culture is when talking about certain religions, not just Islam, but others too.
Islam is "lived out" differently in Western countries than it is in the Middle East or India, etc... And, within that, even in the US, people who are muslims but originally from arab countries are going to have a different way of life still than American born muslims. Again, it is the overall culture and general environment that makes the difference.
Finally, yes, all of us, more or less, have been trained.... But, when it comes to submission, I truly think that, behind closed doors, it takes a whole different look than out there in the world or in the church for that matter... So, maybe that's another one that needs to be seriously re-taught, re-thought, re-considered, and just plain set straight once and for all, for the sake of all women, young and old, including christian women. Because, if we are going to submit, we need to really know why, to whom, when, and to what.
Also, when it comes to women in "bad marriages" suffering physical illnesses, and some severe ones at that, when it translates into a physical problem, usually, it is a sign on the outside of what is and has been going on on the inside, in their mind, soul, and spirit. And, addressing the physical issues without looking to the root of those health problems, the actual cause re their daily life environment, is never going to cure anything, for them individually, for their marriage and beyond.
I believe that it is time to have real women's fellowship, not gossip circles or social clubs, places where, if need be, they can come undone, without fear of being judged, but also rebuilt, to the glory of God. Beating these women upside the head with scriptures is not going to do it: they know the scriptures!!!
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Post by vin on Apr 3, 2009 17:44:38 GMT -5
Nikkol, All of us have been hurt. All of us have a past and ALL OF US, including you have been SHAPED by the things we've been through. So instead of going on and on with you when I know we obviously disagree. I'll just stop here. I don't deny any of the things you've said in your posts about "other things" that are true but not necessarily pertaining to this post. The post is about Bad Marriages Taking a Toll on Women. When we get done the statement is true. When we get done discussing it, it's still true.
I'm glad that you can see that I've been hurt. But it's a little bit of a insult also. I am one of millions. My bad marriage took a toll on me and millions of other women are suffering too in bad marriages. Going all the way back to slavery doesn't help what's going on now. It may give a little explanation but it's no excuse.
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Post by anointedteacher on Apr 3, 2009 22:30:58 GMT -5
Nikkol, Honestly when I think about it, even though all of what you said is true and is happening... I don't recall growing up with very many black homes broken because the man ran off. Those families were together a lot longer than they are now. Men stuck with their families a lot longer than they do now. Now they don't even stay long enough to do much more than get a woman pregnant. I think that different generations have their own issues…..and of course based on the generation as well as the demographic location, we both can see different things. However, I think that percentage wise, the amount of single black family homes vs. married black family homes in US would show how greatly the “slavery mentality” was ingrained in “us” (general) and that single homes would dominate. Slavery mentality made have been ingrained in you, but not in every single black family, no in my... I was raise in a single parent family, and to me it was an healthy environmant... my mother was happy and raise us with alot of love... a whole lot better than some marriage, where the women and sometime men suffer in silent or jumping at each other throat. Poor stereotype of the black women... There are more white on welfare than black, much more... welfare have been reformed during Clinton administration... You must sue for child support before getting a dime, unless the man in dead or in jail. You can only be on welfare for a limited time and for limited amount of children. Some women whether be alone than a bad relationship. Years ago women suffered in silent. Most men don't try to fulfill all their roles.... the average woman will love to have a man who make them feel love and appreciated, a good husband, father and provider. The word "usurp" have been misinterpreted over and over against. That word definition have change since Paul have written the letter to Timothy. You have to study the spiritual, religious climate and why he wrote that letter to that particular church.
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Post by vin on Apr 3, 2009 23:57:12 GMT -5
Just this afternoon I made a trip to deliver 5 more books (which became 6) to the man who bought 8 two months ago to take to friends and family in SC, WV and MS. One of the ladies he bought a book for today is an older Black lady. Used to be married to a pastor who physically abused her for years. She finally divorced him and finished raising her 3 children alone. She is soon to retire and works part time at the dollor store where the man's sister manages.
Another example of a bad marriage taking a toll on the woman. Married to a pastor, getting beat for years, divorcing him and being a single mom to raise her 3 children and putting them all through school alone. THANK GOD she lived to be 71!!! Thank God the man didn't beat her to death and thank God she left before he did! She just had a birthday last month and they are giving her one of my books as a birthday present.
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Post by Nikkol on Apr 4, 2009 18:29:37 GMT -5
Nikkol, All of us have been hurt. All of us have a past and ALL OF US, including you have been SHAPED by the things we've been through. So instead of going on and on with you when I know we obviously disagree. I'll just stop here. I don't deny any of the things you've said in your posts about "other things" that are true but not necessarily pertaining to this post. The post is about Bad Marriages Taking a Toll on Women. When we get done the statement is true. When we get done discussing it, it's still true. I'm glad that you can see that I've been hurt. But it's a little bit of a insult also. I am one of millions. My bad marriage took a toll on me and millions of other women are suffering too in bad marriages. Going all the way back to slavery doesn't help what's going on now. It may give a little explanation but it's no excuse. I do apologize if you feel that way for that was not my point. AT: Check your PM
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Post by keita on Jun 10, 2009 13:25:40 GMT -5
...God gave man a "helpmeet". Maybe, after all this time, we have yet to define "helpmeet"....
As somebody that we all love (and miss!) said a while back "I am not a feminist, but I am certainly a Womanist" and I wish she would come back and speak on this subject :-) Were you, by chance, talking 'bout me? ? LOLOL!!! HELPStrong's # 5828 ( Hebrew = ezer) aid: -- help Strong's Root = # 5826 ( Hebrew = azar) azar = prime root: to surround, ie, protect or aid: help, succourGesenius adds that the primary idea lies in girding, surrounding, hence defending MEET ( Hebrew = kenegdo) corresponding to, counterpart to, equal to matching The traditional teaching for the woman as help is that of assistant or helper subservient to the one being helped. This definition would appear to line up with Strong's definition of the word. HOWEVER... if you look at the context of every other use of the word ezer ( help) in the scripture, you will see that ezer refers to either God or military allies. In all those cases, the one giving the help is actually superior to the one receiving the help. Selah.... Adding the word kenegdo (meet) to the word ezer (help) is what actually modified the meaning to that of a "helper" of equal rather than superior status. Scripture is so awesome. God says just what He means. Dr. Susan Hyatt gives the following definition from her book In the Spirit We're Equal (EMPHASIS MINE ) "Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur.[/color] Rather, the Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position.[/color] The word ezer (help) is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word ezer." And for those who really (and truly) want to "go there"... The Torah Study for Reform Jews says, “From the time of creation, relationships between spouses have at times been adversarial. In Genesis 2:18, God calls woman an ezer kenegdo, a "helper against him." The great commentator Rashi takes the term literally to make a wonderful point: "If he [Adam] is worthy, [she will be] a help [ezer].
If he is not worthy [she will be] against him [kenegdo] for strife."
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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 10, 2009 15:08:25 GMT -5
...God gave man a "helpmeet". Maybe, after all this time, we have yet to define "helpmeet"....
As somebody that we all love (and miss!) said a while back "I am not a feminist, but I am certainly a Womanist" and I wish she would come back and speak on this subject :-) Were you, by chance, talking 'bout me? ? LOLOL!!! HELPStrong's # 5828 ( Hebrew = ezer) aid: -- help Strong's Root = # 5826 ( Hebrew = azar) azar = prime root: to surround, ie, protect or aid: help, succourGesenius adds that the primary idea lies in girding, surrounding, hence defending MEET ( Hebrew = kenegdo) corresponding to, counterpart to, equal to matching The traditional teaching for the woman as help is that of assistant or helper subservient to the one being helped. This definition would appear to line up with Strong's definition of the word. HOWEVER... if you look at the context of every other use of the word ezer ( help) in the scripture, you will see that ezer refers to either God or military allies. In all those cases, the one giving the help is actually superior to the one receiving the help. Selah.... Adding the word kenegdo (meet) to the word ezer (help) is what actually modified the meaning to that of a "helper" of equal rather than superior status. Scripture is so awesome. God says just what He means. Dr. Susan Hyatt gives the following definition from her book In the Spirit We're Equal (EMPHASIS MINE ) "Re: Hebrew ezer kenegdo. In Genesis 2:18, the word "helpmeet" does not occur.[/color] Rather, the Hebrew expression ezer kenegdo appears, meaning "one who is the same as the other and who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports." There is no indication of inferiority or of a secondary position in an hierarchical separation of the male and female "spheres" of responsibility, authority, or social position.[/color] The word ezer (help) is used twice in the Old Testament to refer to the female and 14 times to refer to God. For example, in the Psalms when David says, "The Lord is my Helper," he uses the word ezer." And for those who really (and truly) want to "go there"... The Torah Study for Reform Jews says, “From the time of creation, relationships between spouses have at times been adversarial. In Genesis 2:18, God calls woman an ezer kenegdo, a "helper against him." The great commentator Rashi takes the term literally to make a wonderful point: "If he [Adam] is worthy, [she will be] a help [ezer].
If he is not worthy [she will be] against him [kenegdo] for strife."[/quote] Keita you don't know how much revelation I just received frm your post regarding my position as a wife being a help to her mate........ This post just help deliver me from my fairy tale!
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Post by keita on Jun 10, 2009 16:54:23 GMT -5
PRAISE THE LORD! If reading that did even half as much for you as studying it out did for me (and my mate), I think I may have some idea just how you feel. And that's why I'm sharing THIS especially for you, especially today.
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Post by keita on Jun 10, 2009 17:33:16 GMT -5
Finally, yes, all of us, more or less, have been trained.... But, when it comes to submission, I truly think that, behind closed doors, it takes a whole different look than out there in the world or in the church for that matter... So, maybe that's another one that needs to be seriously re-taught, re-thought, re-considered, and just plain set straight once and for all, for the sake of all women, young and old, including christian women. Because, if we are going to submit, we need to really know why, to whom, when, and to what... Amen... Amen... and AMEN. And somewhere in that threshing is RIGHTLY dividing GODly terms like "submitted" and "submission" from those like "subservient" and "submissive". Maybe some folks got confused by "sub" prefix (and its meaning of "under") these words all have in common. But in most cases I think there is something much deeper than even sexism, chauvinism and misogyny (which are certainly bad enough) afoot here. Because I believe operating in that "confusion" not only makes and keeps married women (and men, whether they know it or not) sick, it's rendering them and their marriages completely powerless. Sick women and Powerless marriages.... Satan loves it.
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Post by nina2 on Jun 11, 2009 8:41:00 GMT -5
Yes, I was! I am so happy to see you back!.... And that's the saddest part of it all. That Satan is still after Woman, and that for lack of knowledge about Woman's purpose - in marriage in particular - such damage is still allowed.
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Post by nina2 on Jun 12, 2009 11:56:04 GMT -5
I just would like to add " a little bit" about the purpose of creation of Woman:
GENESIS - CH 1 >>
18. And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man is alone; I shall make him a helpmate opposite him."
19. And the Lord God formed from the earth every beast of the field and every fowl of the heavens, and He brought [it] to man to see what he would call it, and whatever the man called each living thing, that was its name.
20. And man named all the cattle and the fowl of the heavens and all the beasts of the field, but for man, he did not find a helpmate opposite him.
21. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon man, and he slept, and He took one of his sides, and He closed the flesh in its place. 22. And the Lord God built the side that He had taken from man into a woman, and He brought her to man. 23. And man said, "This time, it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called ishah (woman) because this one was taken from ish (man)." 24. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
"Genesis 2:18 reads "heyot" ha-adam le'vado rather than "li-he'yot,"
which implies not that "it is not good for man to be alone," but that it is not good for man to be "lonely."
Being "alone" means being physically alone, wanting company, needing assistance; being "lonely" means spiritual solitude, as one can feel lonely even in a crowd.
God seeks to remedy that with the creation of woman as ezer ke'negdo, a helpmeet opposite him. Now if le'vado (alone) means simply needing company or requiring assistance, then woman is ezer, a cook and bottle washer, a real helper. But if le'vado means lonely, then ezer is not just a partner to lighten the burden, she is ke'negdo, part of a spiritual union of two souls.
The basic God-created human unit is man and woman, one flesh, completing one another. Man alone or woman alone constitutes only half of that unit, as the Zohar says: Bar nash be'lo iteta peleg gufa. Rabbi Samson Raphal Hirsch says that the word kallah (bride) means completion, as in bayom kalot ha-mishkan (the day the tabernacle was completed). In marriage, the partners complete and fulfill themselves. This is their natural state and a blessing from God.
"It is not good to be lonely" implies that loneliness could not endure, and God had to relieve it by the creation of a companion.
With respect to His other and earlier works of creation, God speaks the word of approval, "good." Only at the creation of man does He utter the negative judgment, "not good." Loneliness is not felt by animals; only man can experience existential loneliness, the fragmentary and incomplete nature of this world.
Also, with the negative judgement "not good", the first one since the beginning of creation, came imperfection in God's creation. God's solution to this "condition" of creation was "the creation of a companion", Woman.... So, the creation of Woman is what rectified perfection in creation, not just with Man, but in all of God's creation.
It is the genuine companionship of Adam and Eve that humanity requires, and which is the stated purpose for marriage in the scheme of creation.
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