|
|
Post by Jasmine on Jan 31, 2006 12:36:44 GMT -5
He is the Provider correct? If people knew they could ALWAYS rely on you to get them out of a hot fix, then when are they trusting God? We are not miracle workers, God and God alone is. We are not going to be able to help every individual that passes our way. Sometimes you will have to turn people away, whether because you yourself don't have any income to give it to them, or because God says no! Even with God's mercy and grace, He can still says no. God is Sovereign, and does not have to share a lick of what He is thinking/doing with us. In the end of all situations, we should come out closer to God and Trusting HIM as our Sole provider. not the church, not the state, not people. God and God alone. ,The tithe belongs to GOD. So no a tither will not give their tithe to anybody. With all the examples listed, let me just say this a person who tithes doesn't have to choose between giving a tithe and giving to somebody in need. BECAUSE GOD is an awesome God and we are financially equipped to do BOTH. This doesn't discount the giver who gave to an individual beside the offering plate. God is concerned about all aspects of giving, because giving is apart of WORSHIP. Again, its about the heart and the attitude that you give. Most definitely. If they hadn't seen the window open up and they gave for 10, 20, 50 years. Thats sounds like they had finances of some sort. Also, if they wasn't blessed financially then GOD provided in another manner. The window opening up and pouring you out a blessing is not always financial. We don't just give into the kingdom to reap financially, we have other things that are set before the Lord that we are looking for God to perform. God gives us what we NEED, and if HE so feels like it, He'll give you what you want also. Shoot people who have been giving for 20, 40, 50 years, aren't necessarily looking to be blessed with money. They want their loved ones saved and delivered from drugs. they want their daughters off the streets, they want peace in their home. They want their husband to stop gambling. The list could go on and on. We set ourselves up when we expect God to move this way, or bless us according to how we feel He should bless us, and He moves and bless us according to HIS way. Which includes tithes. because it has not been dissolved. Of course He gives us common sense, and if an individual can't determine the greater need based off the example given, I'd say the individual didn't & wouldn't know common sense even if it bit him. However I am and was specifically asking whether or not you have consulted God regarding anybody, who approched you about money. While there are certainly many situations that can cause a person to be faced with asking another individual for money (hard thing as well I might add), there are sometimes where we do have to ask God whether or not giving money to this individual who can be in a great disservice to them. Now I personally have never had to turn away anybody asking me for money, however I have had to consult God on whether or not to actually place money in their hands. I have been led on several occasions by Got to not physically give the individual money, but if they needed food go to the grocery store and buy it for them. God let me know that if the money was placed in this individuals hand, the husband would take it before she could make it to the grocery store. So thats why I do agree that God should be consulted because even with these individuals needs, we dont know what they are facing and we have to be led by GOD. Its makes no sense to bless someone with money to feed the mouths of the children, only to have the father take it and gamble it away. |
|
|
|
Post by Giants DO Die ns on Jan 31, 2006 13:15:03 GMT -5
You know what I see the crux of this issue being? Look at the discussion on tithing. The
" non tithe " argument ( and I am NOT saying non tithers because I dont know what you do with the money you are steward over ) is always argued from the point of the Law, Bondage, Legalism and the Curse.
I have raised the point of GOD"S PROMISES for Tithing, SEVEN different covenant promises attached to ONE act of obedience.
But for some reason the blinders we have on ignore that point and ignore the point to a degree that there is not one scripture in the entire New Testament that negates the responsibility of covenant individual to give God HIS tithe and Offerings.
The will be my last comment on this post because simply like it has always done.. it goes nowhere.
I tithe because it is GOD's word.
I tithe because it honor HIM
I tithe because HE declared it HOLY and that it Belonged to HIM
I tithe because even when I was a sinner GOD revealed that ONE of the keys to my financial deliverace was because I needed to tithe.
I tithe because GOD has promised me SEVEN different Covenant Blessings for honoring HIM in this fashion.
I tithe because it is an act of worship unto HIM.
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on Jan 31, 2006 19:52:56 GMT -5
While I unquestionably agree that tithing is "biblical",(meaning it's in the bible) I'm still asking (among many other things) if paying 10% of one's income to a church congregation= biblical tithing. In other words, are the "tithers" really "tithing"? No, we don’t ALL come out blessed. That’s the point. Some have been giving faithfully for 10, 20, 50 years and still haven’t seen that window open up, and mostly that is related to what they’ve been taught about the subject of tithing and giving. ...The window opening up and pouring you out a blessing is not always financial. We don't just give into the kingdom to reap financially, we have other things that are set before the Lord that we are looking for God to perform. God gives us what we NEED, and if HE so feels like it, He'll give you what you want also. Shoot people who have been giving for 20, 40, 50 years, aren't necessarily looking to be blessed with money. They want their loved ones saved and delivered from drugs. they want their daughters off the streets, they want peace in their home. They want their husband to stop gambling. The list could go on and on. We set ourselves up when we expect God to move this way, or bless us according to how we feel He should bless us, and He moves and bless us according to HIS way. I think you both have really good points! Even as one who used to call myself a tither and dutifully and cheerfully paid my 10%+, I would add this. Maybe we also don't receive whatever blessing we thought we would from "tithing" because what we have chosen and been taught to call tithing...ain't. I have found that the blessings, financial and otherwise, definitely increased as I moved from (what I used to believe was) "paying tithes", to "paying tithes" and giving offerings, to freely giving. Yet I have most assuredly been blessed while doing each. God is good like that! I can see how one could be a free giver who freely purposes in their heart to give away 10% (or more or less) of their income to God's work on earth. But to and for me, the spirit, heart and practice of that are very different, and a far cry from obeying the old covenant law of "paying tithes". The will be my last comment on this post because simply like it has always done.. it goes nowhere. I'm really sorry you feel that way. I have seen a lot of valuable actual and attempted "iron sharpening" going on here and, as always, you are a BIG part of that. |
|
|
|
Post by lanl ns on Jan 31, 2006 20:45:14 GMT -5
While I unquestionably agree that tithing is "biblical",(meaning it's in the bible) I'm still asking (among many other things) if paying 10% of one's income to a church congregation= biblical tithing. In other words, are the "tithers" really "tithing"? Keita, I have often wondered that myself, even though I am a giver and the most important thing I give is my ALL to Jesus, not just money but my all in all belongs to God and I am committed to his work. In my experiences, I have seen God bless givers abundantly and yet I see tithers are blessed but there is a struggle in the blessing. My great grandparent and grandparents and the people of old did not teach tithing as they do today and they were some of the blessed most prosperous people I knew. One thing those folks of old did and that was they GAVE, they gave to the poor, to the widow, to the fatherless, to anyone who needed something and if they had it they gave it. And God blessed these people their children were are blessed and successful, their families were blessed, and their communities were blessed. The blessings over took them.... However, today I see tithers who are blessed materially but their children are on drugs, their sons are in jails and their daughters are unwed mothers.... There is an error in the teaching................... IMHO the people of old experienced TOTAL prosperity where as the folks of today are receiving Partial prosperity..... |
|
|
|
Post by Jasmine nsi on Feb 1, 2006 3:15:56 GMT -5
While I unquestionably agree that tithing is "biblical",(meaning it's in the bible) I'm still asking (among many other things) if paying 10% of one's income to a church congregation= biblical tithing. In other words, are the "tithers" really "tithing"? Keita, I have often wondered that myself, even though I am a giver and the most important thing I give is my ALL to Jesus, not just money but my all in all belongs to God and I am committed to his work. In my experiences, I have seen God bless givers abundantly and yet I see tithers are blessed but there is a struggle in the blessing. My great grandparent and grandparents and the people of old did not teach tithing as they do today and they were some of the blessed most prosperous people I knew. One thing those folks of old did and that was they GAVE, they gave to the poor, to the widow, to the fatherless, to anyone who needed something and if they had it they gave it. And God blessed these people their children were are blessed and successful, their families were blessed, and their communities were blessed. The blessings over took them.... However, today I see tithers who are blessed materially but their children are on drugs, their sons are in jails and their daughters are unwed mothers.... There is an error in the teaching................... IMHO the people of old experienced TOTAL prosperity where as the folks of today are receiving Partial prosperity..... I disagree. Not all the people of old were prosperous. In spirit yes, but monetary, we can weigh the list. The people of old, still had drug addicted children, unwed pregnant daughters, and their sons in jail, if it were not so, then the traces would not be found in the latter generations. What the people of old had was POWER! and regardless if they had $.10 or $10.00 they had total complete TRUST in God. lets not be twisted, the rains fall on the just and unjust, and sin don't recognize you as anybody special. You see the "tithers" childrens with these sins as you have listed, the majority of them could possibly live in a african american neighborhood where drugs, gangs, pregnant teens run rampant. It has nothing to do with tithing, but everything to do with where these individuals live, and the economics, and unlimited opportunities that they are faced with and situations that surround them. Don't go blaming the tithe.  Sin is sin and people still have to CHOOSE to sin. |
|
|
|
Post by keita nsi on Feb 1, 2006 3:41:39 GMT -5
LANL, Your conclusion that There is an error in the teaching................. is one which has found a lot of, if not the most agreement throughout this thread. And that error is my primary target. I think the prevalent belief that giving 10% of one's income to a local church actually does, or even could ever be said to constitute, substitute for, or represent biblical tithing, is grossly mistaken and is a fundamental part of the error in the teaching. In the absence of the temple and the Levitical priesthood, and using money as the means, biblical tithing is pretty much impossible. I believe we are largely fooling ourselves if we believe that what we're doing actually is biblical tithing and thus expecting the old covenant blessing to follow it. And we have a more excellent way... |
|
|
|
Post by nina on Feb 1, 2006 4:43:39 GMT -5
I just thought of these:
-Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of Levi who had the priesthood
- yet, he is our high priest according to the order of Melchisedek, eternal
- He answered to the Pharisees, when asked what was the greatest commandment, to love God... and your neighbour... for my sake
Keeping in mind that there are more than 600 commandments, and the Pharisees knew them all, and that the one Jesus told them was the greatest was already in the Old Testament, they might not have had a problem with his answer
- He was then asked who is my neighbour? He gave the parabole of the good Samaritan.. The Pharisees had a problem with that part, because their general understanding of the part "neighbour" was their "fellow Jew" and Jesus repeatedly had been showing them otherwise
- Jesus said that he did not come to void the law but to fulfill it. Either he did or he did not. I believe he did, all of it. The curtain was torn...
I don't doubt for a minute the sincerity of the heart of all who posted. In my humble opinion, in christianity at large, many have been lead to believe that tithing was enough.
God gave his son that he may receive many more.
The Bible says that we are already blessed with all kinds of blessings in the heavenlies. Obedience to the greatest commandment given by Jesus, through faith which is calling into existence things that are not as though they were, the blessings will manifest. We are sons, heirs and co-heirs
When it's all over, according to the Bible, the only things that will decide if we go to the right or to the left, are I was hungry, and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me water, I was sick and emprisoned and you visited me.
Paul said that there is no law against love
|
|
|
|
Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Feb 1, 2006 6:11:17 GMT -5
The will be my last comment on this post because simply like it has always done.. it goes nowhere. This is interesting. It goes nowhere for whom? You? Because you cannot speak for all, Bro. And just because someone does not appear to agree with what you are saying. does not mean that the post is going "nowhere". IMO, this was one of the better discussions we have had on this bulletin board, and to walk away because >>>>>>>>>ahhhh forget it! The bad part about it all is that I was "gleaning" much from your posts....but oh well. LOL Sis. Keita, is it possible for you to go into "biblical tithing" to bring understanding to those of us that feel that this post is going somewhere. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Feb 1, 2006 7:49:21 GMT -5
Jasmine..... I agree totally. It is all about the power that God has equipped the believer with. However, in today's society, having money and wearing the finest, etc. is what is stressed that walking in the power/anointing isn't stressed unless it is based upon 'money' (this isn't everywhere). Sinners will still do what sinners do and one can't expect anything else unless/until there heart is changed. And we have a more excellent way... Yes: Acts 4:32-35 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. Additionally, a tithe is 10% of one's if one gives 10% of their increase, they are tithing and therefore could be called a "tither". I just noticed an article regarding tithing HERE |
|
|
|
Post by GiantsDODie ns on Feb 1, 2006 9:08:07 GMT -5
The will be my last comment on this post because simply like it has always done.. it goes nowhere. This is interesting. It goes nowhere for whom? You? Because you cannot speak for all, Bro. And just because someone does not appear to agree with what you are saying. does not mean that the post is going "nowhere". IMO, this was one of the better discussions we have had on this bulletin board, and to walk away because >>>>>>>>>ahhhh forget it! The bad part about it all is that I was "gleaning" much from your posts....but oh well. LOL Sis. Keita, is it possible for you to go into "biblical tithing" to bring understanding to those of us that feel that this post is going somewhere. ;D You really need to stop trying to call folks out. Seriously. I aint tryin to speak for everyone and if you have read my comments I have been VERY careful NOT to call anyone a " non tither " because simply put I dont know what they do with the money they are given charge over. MY perception is that it is going nowhere. You are surely entitled to have your perception. I have seen this discussion a thousand times on hundreds of different message boards and it always goes the same way. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone agrees with ME because I am not the center or the crux of anyones life and I am not the one anyone has to come into agreement with. The only person each individual is required to come into agreement with is JESUS. Now if you are getting a lot out of it by all means please continue your discussion. However I have the right to discuss what I will discuss or not discuss. I put that statement in there for two reasons. One so people would no longer address comments to me because I will not discuss them here. Two because I saw the argument take the same lines it always does. Non Tithe arguments always line up talking about the Law and the Curse, and how we are no longer under the Law but readily accept the promises and provisions God made to the children of Israel in the OT. Those defending the tithe constantly bring up the fact the the Tithe was not done away with in the NT, and have to defend certain points which really in all honesty sometimes are purely conjecture and not scripture. Statements like " New Testament believers in the Bible didnt tithe " when the scripture says no such thing. I have often asked and wondered and STILL see that very very very few people ever discuss the reality that GOD promised SEVEN different blessngs for obeying His instructions regarding the tithe. I do not disagree for one moment that tithing isnt often taught wrong, or that it is used as manipulation by some churches. However does that require us to throw the baby out with the bath water. No. Now please feel free to continue your discussion and if you were blessed by something I said to GOD be the Glory. He will continue to bless you !!! |
|
|
|
Post by lanl ns on Feb 1, 2006 9:35:10 GMT -5
Keita, I have often wondered that myself, even though I am a giver and the most important thing I give is my ALL to Jesus, not just money but my all in all belongs to God and I am committed to his work. In my experiences, I have seen God bless givers abundantly and yet I see tithers are blessed but there is a struggle in the blessing. My great grandparent and grandparents and the people of old did not teach tithing as they do today and they were some of the blessed most prosperous people I knew. One thing those folks of old did and that was they GAVE, they gave to the poor, to the widow, to the fatherless, to anyone who needed something and if they had it they gave it. And God blessed these people their children were are blessed and successful, their families were blessed, and their communities were blessed. The blessings over took them.... However, today I see tithers who are blessed materially but their children are on drugs, their sons are in jails and their daughters are unwed mothers.... There is an error in the teaching................... IMHO the people of old experienced TOTAL prosperity where as the folks of today are receiving Partial prosperity..... I disagree. Not all the people of old were prosperous. In spirit yes, but monetary, we can weigh the list. The people of old, still had drug addicted children, unwed pregnant daughters, and their sons in jail, if it were not so, then the traces would not be found in the latter generations. What the people of old had was POWER! and regardless if they had $.10 or $10.00 they had total complete TRUST in God. lets not be twisted, the rains fall on the just and unjust, and sin don't recognize you as anybody special. You see the "tithers" childrens with these sins as you have listed, the majority of them could possibly live in a african american neighborhood where drugs, gangs, pregnant teens run rampant. It has nothing to do with tithing, but everything to do with where these individuals live, and the economics, and unlimited opportunities that they are faced with and situations that surround them. Don't go blaming the tithe. Sin is sin and people still have to CHOOSE to sin. Jas, I am not being twisted and if you read my post, I stated that the Saints of Old had TOTAL prosperity which include Power, and they did not suffer lack. Now it amazes me how my great grands and grands and so many of their friends sent all of their children to college yet their offspring struggle just to get by day to day with higher salaries, more prominent positions in their careers, paying their tithes and working in the church. Something is amiss, and it is the erroneous teachings of giving....... |
|
|
|
Post by GiantsDODie ns on Feb 1, 2006 10:00:39 GMT -5
lanl I would like to answer your question.
Its not just the erroneous teaching on giving you are dealing with a different financial climate. You have a much higher cost of living today, rent is much higher, colleges costs a lot more and give out less and less financial aid, savings accounts give out less and less interest.
Also as I have stated before our grandparents and great grandparents we not the consumers we are today. The principles behind tithing and giving are not the problem. They are scriptural and factual, the problem is that we have less understanding of how to manage money. One of the things out church has every couple of years is a " financial deliverance workshop ". We dont just teach folks about tithing and giving. We teach them how to make a budget, how to choose the right bank, how to invest and save money, we teach them what an IRA is, why they should take advantage of their 401K etc etc.
My dad came from poverty to his net worth being a little over 3/4's of a million dollars and that was just in the last 10 years. He didnt have a high school diploma or a college degree ( he does now however ) and He got saved about 20 years ago maybe less. He is a tither and a giver ( he tithes faithfully and he gives a lot.. money, time, effort, etc etc ) and the church he goes to does not even teach tithing OR giving in all honesty ( he learned about that from my mother ) and he will tell you that everything he has gotten in his life is because of the Lord.
You talk about the tithers that have children on drugs. Did they raise their children properly?? Did they raise them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord ?? Did theytrain up the child in the way that it should go ?? Did they set proper discpline and instruction and boundaries for those children ??
The problem isnt tithing or giving. They actually go hand in hand. I dont know anyone personally that is a tither that isnt also a giver. ( I am sure there are folks out there but I dont know any personally. )
I have watched God move supernaturally in peoples lives around me in regards to finances ( and YES in other ways too ) that its ridiculous. I have personally been blessed even in the tighest of financial situations. I might not have been blessed with the finances I wanted BUT I had everything I needed and more importantly I had GOD.
Thats what I believe is the main difference between our great grands and our grands.. Maybe they had a closer relationship with JESUS and they were also tithers and givers whereas we might only have a Sunday church, Wednesday bible study, Friday prayer night relationship with JESUS so we are not getting from the Lord what we need to prosper on a daily basis. What we really need more than anything is HIM.
|
|
|
|
Post by GDD ns on Feb 1, 2006 10:01:42 GMT -5
Lanl you should start a discussion like this in the Financial section of the website. I believe it would be a very good discussion.
|
|
|
|
Post by nina on Feb 1, 2006 10:07:17 GMT -5
I would like to ask a question:
- Could it be true also that, somehow, the notion has been planted that it is easier - so to speak - to "just tithe" than to give?
- Could it be true also that many tithe out of fear because, first, of what they have been told about the consequences of not tithing, and also because it has become such a public matter within the local church (how much you tithe, if you tithe, etc...)?
- Giants mentioned the seven blessings attached to faithful tithing and I don't question that. However, with what Jesus accomplished through his death and resurrection, and if dominion has been restored to us, don't we have access to more than seven?
- If the entire Bible is the word of God and is true, if we have received power, where/what are we still lacking that prevents the glory of God to be manifested among/through his people?
|
|
|
|
Post by lanl ns on Feb 1, 2006 10:56:13 GMT -5
GDD very good post, I asked several Pastors one time why don't they teach about financial responsibility and I was told a flat out answer of "WE DON'T HAVE TO!"
oftentimes that is the mindset of too many of our leaders.....
Might just start that thread....
|
|
Sin is sin and people still have to CHOOSE to sin.
