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Post by Beulah5 on Jan 26, 2006 15:56:44 GMT -5
It would supprise many that most people who dont actually tithe tend to be some of the biggest givers in church. The fact of the matter is there are people who dont tithe who are still mightily blessed of God. ATT go sit down somewhere-this is not jailbreak u know  on 6 years of experience.. I absolutely disagree. If a person doesn't tithe, It doesn't mean that this person is not blessed. All God's children are blessed. If you read my statement Jasmine that is exactly what i am saying. I am disproving the fact that if you dont tithe you cannot be blessed. In regards to those who do not believe that people who may not necessarily tithe cannot possibly be great givers then you are much mistaken because all i see is people's personal church experiences. I come from africa where free giving is the norm not tithes and people give and give untill they have to be stopped. In addition i was a member of living streams ministry founded by watchman nee which is one of the largest and richest 'denominations' in the world today. Discreet giving was the norm however it is one of the richest denominations in the world today among many other denominations. The question i have for the pro-tithers is that if not tithing automatically brings u under a curse then why are some people who are not tithing do extremely well? Did not the bible say: i show u a more excellent way. Free giving provoked by the Spirit in the heart of His bride is the bibilical stance and new testament pattern-read Acts. In addition why do pro-tithers in general especially ministers that i see in churches and tv behave as if God is sitting in heaven wringing his hands at the fact that if people dont pay tithes the church would fail. Some of the worst off people and churches i know are tithers and many would confirm that. The spiritual principle is God loves a cheerful giver-He is well able to convince people Himself-was He not the same person who saved them? ATT I am glad you asked me what my problem is. I apologise if you felt disrespected to be honest with you that was the last way i wanted you to feel however i do have a problem with you. The fact is and i have said it before: you come across as being impossible to dialogue with in any sort of sensible coherent order. You obviously have a great love for the Lord and a passion for His word however you approach every discussion as if this was the Taliban on trial and seem to have an overall grudge against anyone who may not share your particular view. However instead of encouraging discussion you tend to rant and rave giving the impression that your way is the only way and i dont mean that just on this post hence the jailbreak comment which automatically puts anyone off anything you have to say no matter how valid. You need to calm dow, listen and consider that maybe just maybe people may also have a point just the same way you may have one. If my comments were sharp in order to get ur attention then so be it however i apologise if i have caused any offence. Bee is full of love xxxx |
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Post by ATT on Jan 26, 2006 16:19:36 GMT -5
I tithed with my food stamps and times. I will go the church and clean, work in the tape room etc. till I became employed. ATT ATT, I have always wondered could one tithe wit their TIME, but according to these new revelations the answer is NO.... Time is not a consideration when the topic of tithes is approached. Neither is service or charity work a substitute for tithes.... I understand you didn't have a job and could not tithe but what about the people who work, and sacrifice a lot of time to the church but don't pay tithes. We have a contractor, who does not pay tithes at our church but he renovates, keep the building maintenance up and we do not pay him. But he is also one of the biggest givers in the church. When building the new church this young man paid 5000.00 a month, that was not in tithes it was to the building fund.......... I have never seen an envelope with his name on marked tithes but he gives abundantly...... Would this young mans giving and sacrifice not count as tithes? Is there only ONE way to tithe? I believe that tithes is the first fruit of your increase... During that season in my life, I would tithe with every nickle or dime that come into my hand first and continue to serve and tithe with food stamp. In my opinion $ money comes first. The church need money more than services and goods, if we have an income $, that what we should tithe off of. We reap what we sow.... I rather reap$$$$ than someone cleaning my house and giving me food ;D I can clean my own house, but I can use $$$$. We don't give just to receive, but it is a promise (give, you shall receive) and a law (sowing and reaping). By the way the revalation is not new..... it is thousands of years old..... It just change according to the time period and the needs of the House of God. ATT |
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Post by Giants Do Die ns on Jan 26, 2006 16:33:00 GMT -5
This is what I dont get in all seriousness.
The Bible says that ALL the silver and gold belongs to the Lord. Everything is His. In all honesty we own nothing but are stewards. Amen. Giants, I think part of the issue here is in fact scripturally answering the question, "What does the Lord require?", regarding new covenant believers and the tithe. No question that whatever that is should be given "with the proper heart attitude". I think we (well a lot of us) have found a lot of agreement about that on this thread and would add some other objectionable means. Me neither. But in many instances that often just does not seem to really be the basis or the motivation for the teaching/practice. I unquestionably agree with you that God is worthy of ALL honor. I'm also sorry if my use of that comparative language troubles you, but I do maintain that there's quite a bit of sound basis for seeing a "good-better-best" pattern in the scriptures. But, since neither of us wants to hijack this post  , I'll leave it for another time. Here is where I have a problem Why is it that in the area of the tithe we are ready to make a willing distinction between the OLD and the NEW testament but we will readily quote and stand by OTHER Old Testament scripture WITHOUT QUESTION. We will QUICKLY say.. I am the head and not the tail above only and not beneath. But God never said that to NEW testament saints. Blessed in the city, Blessed in the Field.. but God did sat that to NEW Testament saints. So in my book you cannot treat the word of God like a CHinese Buffet dinner.. take what you like and leave the rest. Now I have posed this question to numerous saints and no one has every responded to me yet.. When I was not saved.. didnt know God.. didnt have any kind of relationship with God and one day in frustration asked God.. WHY AM I SO BROKE... Later that night I had a dream and I heard the Word Malachi.. I didnt even know what that was.. I asked my mother she said it was a book in the Bible. Now I hadnt cracked a bible in well over 10 years and the church I was raised in does NOT teach tithing. In fact they STILL dont teach it. Now I read the Word and fell right on Malachi 3 and the Word of God answered my question. Now did I start tithing.. Nope.. I was a sinner. But when I got saved, I KNEW that it was my responsibility to honor GOD with the tithe. I also ask this question.. God said that the tithe was HOLY as unto the Lord. Exactly where did God say in the Word he NO LONGER wanted what He declared HOLY unto Him ?? Bible clearly shows that the blood of bulls and goats was a temporary thing, fulfilled in JESUS. However I do not see this regarding the tithe. Now if God's word is true... we are not talking about the pastors or leaders but GOD's WORD. If GOD said we are cursed for our lack of obedience, why do we think that because we are saved and disobedient there is no curse because of JESUS. I know that he delivered us from curses thats true, however if I continue to sin after coming into the knowledge of the truth there no longer remains any sacrifice for my sin.. Does that not apply to any obedience. Does God no longer judge  ? I would say not. Again I will make my position clear, I was not taught tithing in church from any leader. God will about tithing was revealed to me by the Word of God directly from His Spirit while I was a SINNER !!! God taught a sinner about tithing so he could honor HIM when he got saved ( which GOD knew He would anyway ). The other thing that boggles my mind is that saints get caught up about the tithe and for some reason neglect the SEVEN different blessing God HIMSELF says He will provide for ONE simple act of obedience.. I find that unbelieveable. |
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Post by ybrown on Jan 26, 2006 16:44:54 GMT -5
Did you miss the rest of my post?
And I quote:
[/size][/quote] [/quote] I saw your entire post, but that above sentence became negated with that last paragraph. To say its okay to maintain the OT stance on a subject that's clearly been changed in this dispensation of grace essentially throws out the grace, love and mercy that Jesus came to show us. Why cling to the tithe law and not the others that aren't changed or mentioned in the OT? That's my point, it's hard to keep the law, all of it. God knew that. If we can't keep ALL of the law then we're on our own because if that's your (general) measuring rod, you will be judge accordingly to how well you did or didn't keep EVERY single one of them, not just the tithing law. If tithing didn't change then it would not have been re-addressed differently in the NT. Why not maintain eye for eye, for example? Because it was addressed differently in the NT. That's the same for tithing. It's addressed differently that's why Malachi is no longer applicable. I believe "giving freely as I purposeth in my heart" has replaced "give or you're cursed." Both are acts of giving back to the Lord what is already His, but God made a point to demonstrate His unending grace and mercy to us even in our giving back to Him. |
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Post by Giants Do Diens on Jan 26, 2006 16:45:47 GMT -5
What I don't understand is this; since we have all this "enlightment" on tithes / giving then why are African American church folks at the "lowest" socio economic level in America? sidenote: "most of these people give their ALL to the church, especially the elderly" DISCLAIMER A LOT OF WHAT FOLLOWS WILL OFFEND SOME SO IF YOU A PERSON THAT DOESNT WISH TO BE OFFENDED PLEASE DO NOT READ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now since you ignored my disclaimer and decided to read anyway now its on you LOL !!!! - - - - - - - - . Well I would say this About African Americans in general. We are some of the most ignorant people on the planet when it comes to money and finances. We are one of the largest consumer groups in the United States spending an estimate of 425-500 BILLION dollars a year more than the GNP of some countries yet have little to show for it. By and large we have a consumers mindset and " live for the weekend " Go to some AA Christian boards and start a discussion about the Stock Market. In all honesty you will see some of the most misinformed and unfortunately some of the most ignorant answers you have ever seen. We dont produce, we dont invest, we dont save, we dont even know HOW money works. We dont understand what a CD is unless Beyonce or Kanye is on it. We dont know why one of the smartest things you can do finanacially is start a business or own a home. We might know a Jewish man named Ira but thats about the only IRA we know. We live in the projects with our momma but drive a Lexus because we can make the payments per month but the interest rate is killin us. We have Seven credit cards at 14-21% interest and wonder why we dont have any money but we can make that 35 dollar a month payment for that 48 inch Plasma we got. Sure we can tithe but if we are completely ignorant of what to do with the other 90% then thats the problem. |
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Post by lanl ns on Jan 26, 2006 17:03:42 GMT -5
Very good post Giants thanks for answering that question............
I have a question: (not a belief)
If we are to be stewards over that which God has blessed us with, than why are we as a people still lacking........
We got the tithes /giving right but the rest is in era....
I will be back I got more to say on this.
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Post by lanl ns on Jan 26, 2006 17:04:04 GMT -5
I meant error! |
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Post by jasmine nsi on Jan 26, 2006 17:06:56 GMT -5
Beulah,
I disagreed with the portion regarding those who don't tithe being the biggest givers in the church. I won't say that they are not great givers who go over and above,
I just feel there really is no comparison on who are the biggest givers.
This is just my opinion regarding a "giver" who is not a "tither". A giver still tithes they just dont call it a tithe, because they exceed 10%.
If I was to calculate my tithe & my offerings I exceed 10% in my giving also. However I specifically designate 10% of the money in my envelope as a tithe.
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Post by Jasmine nsi on Jan 26, 2006 17:09:38 GMT -5
What I don't understand is this; since we have all this "enlightment" on tithes / giving then why are African American church folks at the "lowest" socio economic level in America? sidenote: "most of these people give their ALL to the church, especially the elderly" DISCLAIMER A LOT OF WHAT FOLLOWS WILL OFFEND SOME SO IF YOU A PERSON THAT DOESNT WISH TO BE OFFENDED PLEASE DO NOT READ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now since you ignored my disclaimer and decided to read anyway now its on you LOL !!!! - - - - - - - - . Well I would say this About African Americans in general. We are some of the most ignorant people on the planet when it comes to money and finances. We are one of the largest consumer groups in the United States spending an estimate of 425-500 BILLION dollars a year more than the GNP of some countries yet have little to show for it. By and large we have a consumers mindset and " live for the weekend " Go to some AA Christian boards and start a discussion about the Stock Market. In all honesty you will see some of the most misinformed and unfortunately some of the most ignorant answers you have ever seen. We dont produce, we dont invest, we dont save, we dont even know HOW money works. We dont understand what a CD is unless Beyonce or Kanye is on it. We dont know why one of the smartest things you can do finanacially is start a business or own a home. We might know a Jewish man named Ira but thats about the only IRA we know. We live in the projects with our momma but drive a Lexus because we can make the payments per month but the interest rate is killin us. We have Seven credit cards at 14-21% interest and wonder why we dont have any money but we can make that 35 dollar a month payment for that 48 inch Plasma we got. Sure we can tithe but if we are completely ignorant of what to do with the other 90% then thats the problem. EXCELLENT POST MY BROTHER! EXCELLENT! |
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Post by Jasmine nsi on Jan 26, 2006 17:27:18 GMT -5
Very good post Giants thanks for answering that question............ I have a question: (not a belief) If we are to be stewards over that which God has blessed us with, than why are we as a people still lacking........ We got the tithes /giving right but the rest is in era.... I will be back I got more to say on this. Actually I believe the answer is in Giants post! Obviously giving a tithe and offering don't make you a good stewart with the rest of your finances. Why does a person have a lexus, and a plasma tv, but you don't own a House? Why do we own several credit cards with high interest rates, and they are maxed out? LEARNED BEHAVIOR. I totally agree that we think and live like a consumer. We don't really think about the positives of owning our own home, letting the equity build up. We rent someone else home, paying their mortgage, when we can take the necessary steps to buy our own. The number one thing that stops us from obtaining a home, is because are credit is horrible. However a bad credit risk can still qualify for a home loan, you'll just pay extra for it. We don't save our money. Half of our jobs offer 401k, investment plans, high-low risk investing but we refuse because we don't know anything about that. Us African american's really do need to educate ourselves on having money work for us, and not working for money. See I learned that at the age of 25, and 3 years late to applying it. But I can say that its better late than never! AA churches are just now implementing financial classes, and trainings on how to be good stewards over everything that God has given us. i got money invested all over the place. I might lose a few dollars here and there, and thats the risk that alot of people don't want to take. we won't put $100 dollars in a IRA for our kids, but we'd spent $300 dollars on a PSP. |
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Post by lanl ns on Jan 26, 2006 17:33:43 GMT -5
Rephrasing my question "How does tithing ALONE determines that you are good steward over that which you have?"
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Jan 26, 2006 18:05:01 GMT -5
Rephrasing my question "How does tithing ALONE determines that you are good steward over that which you have?" IMO, I don't think that it does.  |
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Post by Giants DO Die ns on Jan 26, 2006 18:12:57 GMT -5
Tithing ALONE does not qualify you as a good steward. What tithing ALONE does do is that it shows that you have obeyed GOD.
Now the key is to impliment that obedience in every area of our lives and to follow God's instructions in those areas as well as in the area of the tithe.
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Post by ybrown on Jan 26, 2006 22:25:44 GMT -5
Here is where I have a problem Why is it that in the area of the tithe we are ready to make a willing distinction between the OLD and the NEW testament but we will readily quote and stand by OTHER Old Testament scripture WITHOUT QUESTION.
We will QUICKLY say..
I am the head and not the tail above only and not beneath. But God never said that to NEW testament saints.
Blessed in the city, Blessed in the Field.. but God did sat that to NEW Testament saints.
So in my book you cannot treat the word of God like a CHinese Buffet dinner.. take what you like and leave the rest.
Now I have posed this question to numerous saints and no one has every responded to me yet.. Deut. 28:
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of Jehovah thy God, to observe to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that Jehovah thy God will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth: 2 and all these blessings shall come upon thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of Jehovah thy God. 3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy beasts, the increase of thy cattle, and the young of thy flock. 5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy kneading-trough. 6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out. This passage is from the OT, but those things do apply to us. They are promises and declarations that apply to both OT and NT believers because those blessings which God pronounced are for the OBEDIENT. Those are particular privileges that the faithful shall receive, so they are for BOTH OT and NT believers. The only thing that has changed is that instead of requiring believers to follow hundreds of different laws, God now only require us NT believers to be obedient to two. He didn’t say he no longer wanted it. Our giving back unto Him is still Holy. ALL of the curses that would have come upon ALL of us for ALL time, for not tithing were ALL put on Jesus on the cross. Every single one of them; that’s why they are no longer ours to bear. There are two Biblical passages which speak of a tithe being given before the Mosaic Law was instituted, and both of them involved two of the Jewish patriarchs, Abraham and Jacob. In both instances, Abraham and Jacob gave freely and voluntarily. Abraham to Melchizedek, presumably as an expression of gratitude to God for enabling him to rescue Lot who had been taken captive. This is the only tithe mentioned in Scripture that Abraham ever gave and there is no evidence that his tithing was his general practice. In addition, this tithe came from the spoils of victory that he acquired by military might. With regards to Jacob and his dream about the ladder, God made a promise to Jacob that He would be with him, and keep him wherever he would go and bring him back to the land. In response, Jacob vowed that if God kept his promise, he in turn would give God a tenth. Again, we have to observe exactly what the text does and does not say. Nowhere are we told that God commanded Jacob to give Him a tithe. And again, along with Abraham's example, it appears that the giving of this tithe was voluntary on Jacob's part. These two examples are the ONLY examples of tithing to be found in the Old Testament before the Law was given. However, those tithes are very different from the tithes under the Mosaic Law. The tithing system under the law was NOT voluntary and was required by God, no if, ands, or buts about it. It wasn’t just a tenth. When we read that over-emphasized Malachi passage very carefully and in the context in which it was written, it says: Malachi 3:8-12: "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed Thee?' In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it may not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes, says the Lord of hosts. And all the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land, says the Lord of hosts." Here we are told that by withholding tithes a man is actually robbing God. Basically its saying that he is withholding something which is not his own, but really belongs to God. Under the Old Covenant, tithing was mandatory and to withhold it was to become a thief. Notice also that God says the people were robbing him in "tithes." It does not say "the tithe", but in "tithes" (plural). These "tithes" refer to ALL the different tithes required of God's people (Levite Tithe, Festival Tithe, Poor Tithe). In addition, that passage doesn’t just say tithes, but “tithes and offerings.” These offerings refer to the offerings specified in Leviticus 1-5, such as the burnt offering, grain offering, peace offering, sin offering, and guilt offering. These offerings were constituted primarily of animal sacrifices. Now, an important question surfaces at this point. Why is it that we recognize animal sacrifices to be obsolete under the New Covenant, but not tithing? If we are obligated and required to pay tithes today as in the OT, then certainly we are still obligated to offer animal sacrifices. God lumps them both together and says that His people were robbing Him by withholding both of them. And Giants, you’re right, we can't decide to pick and choose what the follow and what not to follow in the bible. That also goes for this issue. Either we must offer both tithes (all of them, which some calculate to be about 33%, not just 10%) and animal sacrifices (offerings) or both these gifts as stated in the OT have been abolished by Jesus’ fulfillment of the Mosaic Law. PTL, Giants! It’s a blessing that God told you about tithing before you were saved. He knew how to draw you to Him. While writing this long post (sorry) the HS revealed to me that it’s no accident that He took you to Malachi. There are two reasons for that. Firstly, it deals with the subject that drew you to him in the first place, your finances. The second reason can best be answered with a question: when you’re having trouble learning something, what does the teacher do? He sends you to a tutor. That’s what Malachi 3:8 and all the other OT laws are – they’re tutors. We know this from Galatians 3:24-26 which says: 24 So that the law is become our tutor [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. Our Father led you to the tutor because you needed it. You didn’t have the faith knowledge. Tutors are meant to teach us the things that we struggle with. Once we get what the tutor has been trying to teach us, we move on. We graduate. I think now, my brother, you no longer need that tutor. You have the foundation and the rudimentary skills down now. You know how to give and be faithful. The tutor did its job. See: Galatians 3:24-26: 24 So that the law (Malachi) is become your tutor to bring you unto Christ so that you would be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith is come, you are no longer under the tutor 26 For you are now a Son of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. You’re a good man. Amen. There are benefits and promises built into our giving and we only access them when we give. |
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Post by Nikkol on Jan 26, 2006 22:35:13 GMT -5
Did you miss the rest of my post?
And I quote:
I saw your entire post, but that above sentence became negated with that last paragraph. To say its okay to maintain the OT stance on a subject that's clearly been changed in this dispensation of grace essentially throws out the grace, love and mercy that Jesus came to show us. Why cling to the tithe law and not the others that aren't changed or mentioned in the OT? That's my point, it's hard to keep the law, all of it. God knew that. If we can't keep ALL of the law then we're on our own because if that's your (general) measuring rod, you will be judge accordingly to how well you did or didn't keep EVERY single one of them, not just the tithing law. If tithing didn't change then it would not have been re-addressed differently in the NT. Why not maintain eye for eye, for example? Because it was addressed differently in the NT. That's the same for tithing. It's addressed differently that's why Malachi is no longer applicable. I believe "giving freely as I purposeth in my heart" has replaced "give or you're cursed." Both are acts of giving back to the Lord what is already His, but God made a point to demonstrate His unending grace and mercy to us even in our giving back to Him. Like I said, believing that you are cursed if you don't pay your tithes is not a bad thing. I don't become "special" by believing it or even by not believing it. Additionally, it has already been stated that tithing was done BEFORE the law. And as I believe Jasmine has stated, if you make $100 and give $20 as a gift, the tithe is still 10%. I also don't think that it was re-addressed differently. Regarding an eye for an eye, or even divorce, the LAW was stated and Jesus said "but I say unto........" Tithing was never discussed in that fashion. If anything, I would look at it as saying "In times past, you gave your tithes to the storehouse, but I would say unto to sell all and have things common would be better." In reference to tithing one's time, I believe the definition of tithe is specifically of resources (food/money/etc). But it appears that even those that don't believe in tithes are giving tithes whether they call them tithes or not, so is there really a problem? Lastly, why does it seem like other people are being blessed? Scripture lets us know that it rains on the just as well as the unjust. We can't base being "blessed" solely on the fact that we got something. For not everything that seems good is really good for you. I mean if one thinks about it, one can sell drugs, have a big house and nice cars.... and someone may say that they are blessed......... blessings although can be physical have so many spiritual implications which surpass anything that one can receive in the natural. |
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, I'll leave it for another time.
? I would say not.
