Meet The Faith (Homosexuality)

[stillfocused]

Hi all..please let us seriously begin to pray for the well known Pastors, Ministers, and whatever they call themselves as on Sunday I watched the Meet Faith Broadcast and the person that they was chosen to represent the Body of Christ..backed into a corner and stayed there..mostly be he was being attacked by all the panel members, and secondly..he made to choice not to challenge the thinking of panel on a topic that's sore to everyone..which was homosexuality in the Black churcb !! The man of God stated that homosexuality is not a sin it's the fornification that's the sin. I sat there with my mouth open..wondering "what in the world...I am I seeing and hearing.

[stillfocused]

It actually showed me how effective we have become within the walls.. and uneffective we are outside the walls.

[Jasmine]

The bishop they had on the show was Bernard Jordan.

[krazeeboi]

Well, the way I saw it, I think Bishop Jordan actually did OK within the confines of the show. First of all, it was a set-up to have 2 pro-gay panel members to 1. Secondly, they were trying to out-talk him and several times the host had to tell the other two (author Keith Boykin and actress Sheryl Lee Ralph) essentially to shut up and let Jordan speak. It was obvious that they were emotional about the entire subject, whereas Jordan was calm and collective.

Now, what Jordan said is actually a position that I agree with. Specifically, he said that if a person with homosexual attractions were to remain celibate and not act on those tendencies or attractions, they would be acceptable in terms of their position in the church. I don't think it's a sin to be tempted, but it IS a sin to give in to that temptation. Now I also believe that deliverance is available from same-sex attraction as well, as it isn't natural, but that's not where the sin lies. Whenever you see homosexuality condemned in the Bible, it talks about the actual ACTION of being sexually involved with a member of the same sex, not simply being attracted to a member of the same sex.

[giantsdodie]

whew.....Glad I didnt see this one..... Jordan shouldnt be invited on any panel to speak about anything.

[nina2]

I think that there is a lot of misunderstandings about these issues, and at the same time, there are still many unanswered questions among Christians.

For example, how many times do we hear that God hates the sin, but not the sinner. So, when it comes to homosexuality, how do we answer to:

- Is it possible for somebody to be engaged in a homosexual lifestyle and sincerely believe and love God?

- If they do love God, should they attend church even though they are openly gay?

- What church should they attend?

- Would they be welcome in that church?

- Would they be, somehow, made to understand/feel that it would be better for them to find another place of "fellowship"?

- Are we - general - somehow responsible for the fact that there are now gay churches? What is the alternative?

- For the ones who are struggling with the temptation and do believe, what kind of support is provided to them in their every day life?

- If there is no support available, doesn't it make sense that they would - so to speak - stay in the closet?

- If there was some support and/or counseling available in the church, how would that be looked upon by the members of the church? Should it be looked at as suspicious? Who would be considered as "right" to counsel? A man? A woman? The pastor? Would there ever be a way that would not open the door to suspicions and talk?

- It is true that the church at large has been perceived as homophobic. Is it justified?

- If the general position - including in leadership - is caused by any kind of fear, what/who exactly are we - general - afraid of?

[Nikkol]

krazeeboi said:

Now, what Jordan said is actually a position that I agree with. Specifically, he said that if a person with homosexual attractions were to remain celibate and not act on those tendencies or attractions, they would be acceptable in terms of their position in the church. I don't think it's a sin to be tempted, but it IS a sin to give in to that temptation. Now I also believe that deliverance is available from same-sex attraction as well, as it isn't natural, but that's not where the sin lies. Whenever you see homosexuality condemned in the Bible, it talks about the actual ACTION of being sexually involved with a member of the same sex, not simply being attracted to a member of the same sex.

I have heard that this is how Jews view this as well. ie seeing the action as the sin.

[stillfocused]

Nina2 all of your questions are valid..yet, I knew several men who practiced that lifestyle and flaunted opening in the church and anywhere they went. For me because this kind of behavior was allowed to go for so long..it became acceptable..yes, they can love God..but, why would you continue to practice an act you know is abomination to God. You can still love them and accept them..yet, the behavior is not acceptable..when they are hooking up and using their positions and other church functions to do it. The way I see is this..the word of God that judgment begins in the house of God and whether we like it or not..we're under a microscope. It's what Paul told Timothy..having a form of godliness..but, denying the power there of..they will gather to themselves men who will tell what their itching ears want to ear.

Yes, Bishop Jordan was poised, and cool..yet, in my own opinion it was not the time..as they were using word of God to justify what they stood for. Time out for the "wishy washy Christianity". And Krazeeboi..since you brought up how Jews feel about this topic..since practice on the first 5 books of the Bible..in the Bible days people got stoned for sexual immorality....how do they deal with homosexuality within their communities..and would anyone who still takes part in the practice be allowed in the synagogue and partake in their services ? I am sure there are others who sincerely would like to know that as well as myself.

Just watching made me realize there are people who still want to practice the act..be called a Christian..without a repentative heart..and that no matter who you are men, women, etc..will guarnatee you a place in heart..just because you go to church doesn't cut either..and that's another topic..

[nina2]

Judaism is not exempt from having to confront this issue. There are several movements in Judaism regarding homosexuality and how it should be dealt with.

This article is long, but I did not edit it because it shows the different positions of each movement regarding this issue. It seems that Christianity is too dealing with it and it is, strangely enough, causing divisions.

It is not about being pro or con. It is about what the word of God says. God does not change, his word stands forever. How do we keep obeying the commandment to love without compromising on any level?

Judaism and Homosexuality

Traditional Judaism on Homosexuality

Traditional Judaism considers homosexual acts as a violation of Jewish law (halakha).

Biblical Prohibition

According to the Bible, homosexual acts are "to'evah," an abomination.

In Leviticus 18:22, it is written: "And you shall not cohabit with a male as one cohabits with a woman; it is an abomination."

And in Leviticus 20:13, it is written: "And if a man cohabits with a male as with a woman, both of them have done an abominable thing; they shall be put to death; their blood falls back upon them."

The Biblical prohibition of homosexual acts seems harsh at first glance, but not all orthodox Jews interpret these passages in a simple way.

Boteach

Rabbi Shmuel Boteach, Chairman of the Oxford University L'Chaim Society and author, uses a wider perspective in his interpretation of these passages.

Boteach has developed a more humane interpretation of G-d's mandate for heterosexual acts and prohibition of homosexual acts.

According to Boteach, homosexual acts are wrong simply because the Torah says they are wrong, and not because they are an aberration or sickness. Sexuality as a whole is instinctive, and both heterosexuality and homosexuality are natural. Then why does G-d say that heterosexual love is holy and homosexual love is an abomination? Heterosexual love is the way the human race propagates itself. G-d demands that we regulate our sexual activity so that we will lead happier lives and fulfill our commitments to our communities.

The Torah is against homosexual acts, not homosexual people. Judaism and G-d love all people. Boteach reminds us that the Torah also calls eating non-kosher food 'to'evah', an abomination. The word 'to'evah' in the Torah does not depict a social repulsion.

Furthermore, the Torah condemns the homosexual act, not homosexual love or the homosexual urge. "Judaism does not prohibit or in any way look down upon homosexual love. In the eyes of Judaism the love between two men or two women can be as natural as the love between a man and a woman. What it does prohibit is homosexual intercourse."

Boteach recommends the Jewish approach to homosexuality focus on the benefits of heterosexuality, rather than on the repulsion of homosexuality. He also thinks that Jews with homosexual preferences should make a concerted effort to reorient their preference and to lead a life according to Jewish law (Halacha).

The Rebbe

Rabbi Menachem Schneerson accepted the fact that certain men and women have an inherent sexual attraction to the same sex. However, these men are not "gay" and the women are not "lesbian." Rather, these are people with a sexual preference for the same sex. In addition, the Rebbe believed this preference is a result of social conditioning, and not a result of an irreversible physical condition.

Consequently, the Rebbe believed that those with homosexual preferences could and should be encouraged to give heterosexual relationships a try. Traditional Judaism believes that even someone born with homosexual preferences may be able to find sexual fulfillment in a heterosexual marriage. And it is the heterosexual marriage that most benefits the community. Just as Judaism encourages a Jewish bachelor to get married, it encourages someone with homosexual preferences to try to reorient their sexual attraction and enter into a heterosexual relationship.

Liberal Judaism on Homosexuality

More liberal branches of Judaism are allowing for the ordination of gay and lesbian rabbis and are allowing their rabbis and congregations to perform or host same-sex commitment ceremonies.

Conservative Judaism

The Rabbinical Assembly, founded in 1901, is the international association of Conservative rabbis. The Committee on Jewish Law and Standards (CJLS) of the Rabbinical Assembly is the central halakhic authority for the Conservative movement.

For the first one hundred plus years of the Conservative movement's existence, the movement did not allow for the ordination of openly gay men and lesbians. In addition, Conservative rabbis who performed same-sex commitment ceremonies did so without the Law Committee’s sanction.

Then on December 6, 2006, the CJLS completed its deliberation regarding the halakhic status of gay men and lesbians.

The CJLS decided that the halakha of the Conservative movement now says that:

Conservative rabbis, synagogues, and institutions can perform or host same-sex commitment ceremonies and are free to hire openly gay rabbis and cantors.

Conservative rabbis, synagogues, and other institutions may continue not to permit commitment ceremonies and not to hire openly gay or lesbian rabbis and cantors.

The decisions of the CJLS are advisory only, as the movement sees each congregational rabbi as the final decision maker on Jewish law in that congregation. The CJLS makes decisions - after serious research, thought, and debate - which are meant to provide guidance and support to congregational rabbis, who must ultimately make their own decisions.

Regardless of whether a Conservative rabbi and congregation choose to hire homosexual rabbis or perform same-sex commitment ceremonies, they are expected to show respect and sensitivity to all people. All Jews, no matter what their sexual orientation, are welcome into Conservative congregations.

Reform Judaism

As a progressive movement, the Reform movement tries to adapt Judaism to today's world. According to Reform rabbis in support of this new resolution allowing rabbis to officiate at the commitment ceremonies of same sex couples, homosexuality in today's world was not understood at the time that the Bible was written.

In 1969, both the National Institutes for Mental Health and the American Psychiatric Association ruled that homosexuality is not an illness. When medical discoveries are made, Jewish law (halacha) is modified. More progressive rabbis will say it is not halachally correct for more traditional rabbis to ignore this discovery and to continue to call homosexuality an illness.

Many progressive Jews also believe that calling homosexuality "unnatural" is incorrect. They site numerous studies which have found that homosexuality occurs in nature among every species of mammal and among most other species of animals. Sexually aroused animals will try to mate with the nearest partner. It has been concluded, therefore, that there is an innate drive toward the release of sexual tension, and this release can be accomplished through either homosexual or heterosexual relations.

More liberal Jews believe that the translation of the word "to'evah" to "abomination" is inaccurate. The other times that "to'evah" is used in the Bible, it is used to refer to forbidden idolatrous acts. Therefore, looking at the biblical context in which the word is used," the passages in Leviticus about homosexuality must be referring to cultic practices of homosexuality rather than loving homosexual relationships which exist today.

While traditional rabbis say the Torah prohibits homosexuality because it destroys the family structure, many Reform rabbis will say that homosexual couples can and do raise children who are educated about Jewish traditions and values. Unlike in Biblical times, today's homosexual couples can fulfill the commandment to procreate through artificial insemination, surrogate motherhood, co-parenting arrangements, and even adoption.

Jonathan Oriole, in his article on "Homosexuality and its role in Judaism," writes that at "Congregation Beth Simchat Torah in New York City, or Sha'ar Zahav in San Francisco, or any of the other 30 gay synagogues in North America, one can see numerous gay and lesbian couples WITH THEIR CHILDREN, all of whom are dedicated to preserving and continuing the Jewish faith and tradition." Oriole adds that many heterosexual couples do not maintain the traditional family structure and fail to give their Jewish children a good Jewish education.

In addition to being progressive, the Reform movement is also humanist. It has been estimated that as many 10% of Jewish men and 1% of Jewish woman are homosexuals. Many in the Reform movement do not want to turn their backs on these Jews.

Not only are homosexuals accepted in Reform congregations, the movement also accepts gay and lesbian rabbis. It has been argued that since gay and lesbian Jews have experienced adversity, they can be more understanding and effective Jewish leaders.

Many in the Reform movement believe that gay and lesbian Jews would be committed Jews if they were welcomed into the Jewish community. The idea of officiating at homosexual commitment ceremonies is another way to reach out to this segment of the Jewish population.

Agreement and Disagreement

Most Jews would agree that making Jews who are homosexuals feel like they are outcasts or sick is inhumane and un-Jewish.

Traditional Judaism believes we should reach out to those with homosexual preferences by educating about the benefits of and encouraging them to enter into a heterosexual relationship.

Reform Judaism believes homosexuality today was not understood when the Bible was written. Thus, the Biblical prohibition of homosexual acts can and should be adapted to fit today's world.

[stillfocused]

Interesting articles..in that they represent the same views that are being expressed by both sides.

[krazeeboi]

stillfocused said:

Yes, Bishop Jordan was poised, and cool..yet, in my own opinion it was not the time..as they were using word of God to justify what they stood for. Time out for the "wishy washy Christianity". And Krazeeboi..since you brought up how Jews feel about this topic..since practice on the first 5 books of the Bible..in the Bible days people got stoned for sexual immorality....how do they deal with homosexuality within their communities..and would anyone who still takes part in the practice be allowed in the synagogue and partake in their services ? I am sure there are others who sincerely would like to know that as well as myself.

I wasn't referencing the Jewish position on this issue, but rather what I see the Bible itself saying.

Just watching made me realize there are people who still want to practice the act..be called a Christian..without a repentative heart..and that no matter who you are men, women, etc..will guarnatee you a place in heart..just because you go to church doesn't cut either..and that's another topic..[/quote]

[nina2]

1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Cr 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Cr 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Cr 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

Isa 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?


Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

So, is there a clear answer to the issue of homosexuality in or outside the church, one that would unify instead of divide and confuse?

[stillfocused]

Am sure there is an answer...yet, will the answer be accepted by all. Many people see the buildings we meet in the church; yet, many will not accept the responsiblity that they are the temples of Holy Spirit which makes one responsible for the way that the church is viewed as a whole. Ironically, when I hear someone say " I am a Christian..but, and I am having a sex with everything moving..and God loves me just like he loves you...and I ask God to forgive me everytime I do...yet, you don't hear I have repented and no longer practice that any longer..is deception..and it will take the Lord removing blinders off of the eyes of many to see..yes, you are forgiven, yes, I still love you..yet, you no longer can continue this practice.

[Jasmine]

giantsdodie said:

whew.....Glad I didnt see this one..... Jordan shouldnt be invited on any panel to speak about anything.

That was my thoughts.

I watched the show the worthless 30 minutes, and I believe it was more of an injustice than anything. While, Bishop Jordan was calm, cool, and collective, I actually felt that if any other preacher would have been asked to be on the guest panel, the message would have come across slightly differently.

[stillfocused]

Jasmine..those were my thoughts as well. My thought was why didn't they ask Donnie...