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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Aug 30, 2005 5:41:38 GMT -5
Another interesting article. Be advised there are 3 parts to it, don't forget to click on each part. I haven't read it all because I have to run off to work. Tithing and Giving in the New Testament |
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 30, 2005 8:19:51 GMT -5
Here's an article that I think we could add to the discussion.... it's not too long: Toward the tithe and beyondHere's a brief summary below: Seven Biblical Reasons to Tithe 1. Tithing honors an Old Testament principle of how God provided for the ministers he called and the expenses of their ministry. 2. When we release a tenth of our income and give it over to the ministry and mission of Christ in the world, we honor the Creator rights of God who owns everything, including all our income. 3. Giving away a tenth of our income to the mission and ministry of Christ is an antidote to covetousness. 4. The fourth reason is almost the same as the last one, but not quite. When we go to the tithe and beyond, as I am suggesting we should, it puts a governor on ever-expanding spending. 5. The fifth reason for going to the tithe and beyond in our giving is that this is God's way of bringing about many good deeds for his glory. 6. The sixth reason for pressing to the tithe and beyond is that it is God's way of providing you, the tither, sufficient money for your needs. 7. Finally, in our giving we should press toward the tithe and beyond because it will prove and strengthen our faith in God promises. I would request that you read his explanations before responding to this particular post.... Thanks. |
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 30, 2005 8:45:32 GMT -5
I put this on the other post but thought I should add it here as well:
I will say that it is sad that pastors/preachers have to quote Malachi over and over again and talk about the curses for not obeying the scriptures (which I do believe that there is truth in the problems that arise from not obeying the scriptures). At the same time, it is even more sad that the people wouldn't just give 10% and give an offering. I doubt that anyone (saved or not) don't know about paying tithes or at least have heard it before. If everyone would just continue to pay their tithes and offerings, it wouldn't be talked about as much.... just like school. You may learn that 1+1=2 in kindergarden, however, when you get to 9th grade, you shouldn't be still hearing it because it would be something that you know understand and follow suit..... if you are still hearing it, it must be because for some reason, you (general) aren't understanding the concept.
General Question: Also, if the church at large (since most churches do) teach about tithes and offerings, and probably years ago it was the "norm" to discuss and follow, what makes what the churches of old say to be wrong when there is nothing in scripture that says "You no longer have to give tithes". This is unlike the sacrificing of animals when we find out that we no longer have to do that because of Christ.........
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Post by lanl on Aug 30, 2005 15:02:43 GMT -5
In scripture regarding tithes it is mentioned "storehouses" where are the modern day "storehouses" ?
*** I don't have my Bible ***
Also it is mentioned in the old testament that the tithes was given to take care of the widow and fatherless, in today's time who is taking of the widow and fatherless (oops the govt)
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Post by giantsdodie on Aug 30, 2005 19:36:07 GMT -5
Yes partially the govt is doing it because the church at large does not Tithe nor Give like it is supposed to.
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Post by krazeeboi on Aug 30, 2005 19:44:38 GMT -5
The church is only obligated to care for her own, not those that have neither part nor lot in this matter.
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 31, 2005 7:29:47 GMT -5
I don't know about that.......for if someone asks we are to help and that isn't based on them being our "own"
I think some is because their is a difference between a widow and a widow indeed. Of course when we think of a widow, it was defined as someone who's spouse had died. However, a widow indeed one who's spouse has died and they have NO family/relatives. For if a spouse died, it was the job of the children (and/or relatives) to take care of them.
Also, the gov't is indirectly paying for them when we look at things like welfare, etc. However, much of that money is coming from the taxes that we pay to the gov't. Just like when a person gives to the United Way. You may give to one "person" but that money is allocated between many different areas. SO, in that way, we are helping based on some of the money we pay in taxes.
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 31, 2005 9:02:43 GMT -5
I decided to put this here instead of in the other topic based on a response from there:
A tithe is defined as 10%. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, there is nothing wrong with rituals which can be defined as social customs.
A tithe is a 10th of your (general) increase. The increase of our society is money. Yes, there are some people who still are farmers but for the general population it is money. Therefore, one tithes off their gross because their gross is the true amount of their increase, not the net. That has nothing to do with "Your plan" as you called it but rather based on the Word concerning a tithe. Remember tithe and offering aren't the same. An offering is that above your tithe.
The New Testament doesn't negate the Old testament. Nowhere in the NT (as Giants stated) does it say that we are no longer to give tithes. At the same time, I do agree that we should give our OFFERINGS cheerfully,generously, and not out of necessity for the Lord loves a cheerful giver. (Remember that the backdrop to this is that tithes are not the same as offerings)
Right... OFFERING vs TITHE. We should give offerings and there is no particular percentage that one must give of offerings.
I'll give an "up to date example".... If I am writing a letter to a strict holiness church that says that women aren't to wear pants and I (the writer) agree with that standard, I don't have to write in my letter: PS. Please remind the women not to wear pants. It was a given that they were paying tithes. After Christ's death and resurrection, there was no "revolution" of "no more going to the temple and no more tithes". We know that they still went to the temple for prayer. In other words, paying tithes wasn't some "new thing" that people never heard of before.
I do agree that you shouldn't pay tithes/offerings on a credit card (unless it's a debit card)....
I don't see how tithing, which was before the law and told to us again in Malachi has to do with mixing the law with getting something from God that you don't deserve.......
A tithe is 10% of your total increase (which is your gross for whether or not taxes come out first doesn't change what your income is). So what is 10% of most people's increase? Their money from their places of employment. Some have land and farms/gardens and I have heard of people tithing off of that as well. It's not a "creatively constructed doctine (teaching)" but rather taking what the Word says and being obedient. Nothing in the NT refutes tithing and in order for me to say that tithing is no longer acceptable would mean that I would have to say that I don't believe/agree with the OT and since as Christians, we believe that the Bible is the Word of God, we should be obedient to what it says.
Give to God what is God's, give to Caesar what is Caesars... the tithe still belongs to God.
I don't think that we should make the 10% seem like insufficient because for some people giving 10% is a sacrifice and they shouldn't be treated differently or like they basically didn't give.
One thing that I recall from talking to someone is that in giving 10%, everyone, no matter if you make $20K or $200K were all giving the same amount --- 10% it made no difference who had the higher amount of 10% for when it was all said and done, both people still have 90% left.
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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 1, 2005 2:03:55 GMT -5
I don't know about that.......for if someone asks we are to help and that isn't based on them being our "own" I don't find that to be Bible. Even Jesus told the Syrophonecian woman that it was not fit to cast the children's bread to dogs. However, her faith is what moved Jesus, not simply the fact that she was in need. Furthermore, I do not see in the book of Acts how the church was concerned with providing for the community at large; the believers in need in their midst was their priority. |
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Post by ybrown on Sept 1, 2005 21:10:55 GMT -5
Can you prove that your pastor is from the tribe of Levi?
If not, then he shouldn't be accepting your "tithes" because only Levites could receive the tithe. Even Jesus Christ himself couldn’t receive the tithe because He was from the tribe of Judah!
Ask a Jew about tithing.
Since the Levites are gone, that’s why even modern Jews cannot tithe to them anymore. Jewish Rabbis today, those who know the Mosaic Law better than any pastor, do not collect tithes because they know only Levites can collect the tithe.
Because the genealogical records were destroyed in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, they cannot determine true Levites. If they can’t determine who the true Levites are, you or I most certainly can’t either.
It is also important to note that the entire Mosaic Law system was only for Israel. Only after being accepted into the community of Israel were the Mosaic Laws binding.
Take a look at Hebrews 7:5, which says: “And they indeed of the sons of Levi that receive the priest's office have commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though these have come out of the loins of Abraham”
And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law. After Jesus died on the Cross, there was no further need for animal sacrifices. The need for a Levitical priesthood had ended.
The tithing laws were made specifically for the Levites who were in charge of the Levitical priesthood. If the Levitical priesthood expires then the tithing laws that support the Levitical priesthood expire also. A new priesthood would have to be instituted to replace the old one.
Hebrews 8:13 says, “In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. “
The new priesthood would not be after the order of Aaron who was the first high priest of the Levitical order. The new priesthood would be after the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:21 further reiterates with "The LORD has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek"',
Jesus is the high priest who is according to the order of Melchizedek. The Levitical priesthood is expired, and thus is the tithe!
The apostle Paul knew that the tithing laws expired when the Levitical priesthood expired. Paul himself did not tithe and did not instruct people to tithe.
Acts 24:17 (words of Paul)
"Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation,"
Notice Paul does not say the word tithe. Why? Alms and Offerings usually refers to money or gifts/freewill offerings.
The word tithe does not refer to money. Paul is a Jew and he knows this. Jewish people were not supposed to tithe money. Paul was giving money or gifts and that is why he uses the word offerings. The word tithe is not associated with money.
The tithe laws were made specifically to support the Levitical priesthood. Those laws have expired with the Levitical priesthood. There are no new laws or commands given concerning tithing in the New Testament. Today giving is a free will offering.
Today as Christians we are under A Melchezidek priesthood A PRIESTHOOD OF GRACE, which is the same priesthood that Abraham was under. Abraham didn’t tithe according to the law - the law would not exist for another 400 years. He didn’t tithe because he was instructed or commanded to tithe – he tithed freely under grace of his own volition. Abraham tithed without any restrictions from the law and Abraham tithed without any commandments from the law.
Abraham tithed under a priesthood of grace, which is exactly how we are to give today and we are heirs to the The Abrahamic Covenant.
So where did the idea to tithe money come from for Christians? The Roman Catholic Church needed to raise money in the early centuries. They instituted a money tithe and claimed it was biblical, and so this has been passed down for many centuries till today, but it is not biblical.
The tithing system has been used to institute a priesthood which is not lawful under the New Covenant. This system of tithing we’re participating in has been instrumental in creating a priesthood and laity structure which God did not intend under the administration of Grace.
It has also made people haughty, self-righteous, guilty, among other things…
Lastly, if you want to hold to the law, you should keep James 2:10 in mind, which is a reminder for us when we try to mix the Old and New Covenant together and not follow ALL of the law.
"Whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." The penalty is death!
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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 1, 2005 21:15:21 GMT -5
You said it AGAIN, ybrown.
We love to talk about how "lost" the Catholic Church is, but in many respects, we're nothing but their vagabond children.
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Post by ybrown on Sept 1, 2005 22:01:35 GMT -5
You said it AGAIN, ybrown. We love to talk about how "lost" the Catholic Church is, but in many respects, we're nothing but their vagabond children. Yeah, you got that right.  |
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Post by Nikkol on Sept 2, 2005 8:13:33 GMT -5
Actually, Jews pay what is known as "dues".... these dues "held their seat". This was paid in the beginning of the year. I remember this because a few years ago, I was wishing that I could pay my tithes for the year right in the beginning of the year as well.
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Post by ybrown on Sept 2, 2005 9:17:42 GMT -5
Actually, Jews pay what is known as "dues".... these dues "held their seat". This was paid in the beginning of the year. I remember this because a few years ago, I was wishing that I could pay my tithes for the year right in the beginning of the year as well. Right, the purchase of the seats is part of what's called the "patron system." The synagogues are financed with membership dues paid yearly, through voluntary donations, community fundraisers, and the purchase of reserved seats, usually for services on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the holidays when the synagogue is most crowded. There are two primary approaches that the synagogues take concerning dues. Some congregations set a fixed fee based on membership categories, while others base dues on a small percentage (often 2%) of one's income. That's 2% freely given, not 10% required. And if a family can't pay the 2%, the church committe works with them in private. People are not turned away or condemned because of inability to pay. Now that's grace. How ironic. |
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Post by keita on Sept 2, 2005 23:15:24 GMT -5
Ybrown, you are cooking with GAS up in here! You said it AGAIN, ybrown. We love to talk about how "lost" the Catholic Church is, but in many respects, we're nothing but their vagabond children. Amen, KB! Although I must confess that "vagabond" is the milder version of the word I ususally use to describe that parent-child truth. In many cases, we don't know who our "daddy" was. |
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