God, Evil and Sin

[ybrown]

giantsdodie said:

He didnt create Evil because His Word SAYS HE cannot. Now either the Word is contradicting Itself or we have a MISUNDERSTANDING of that Scripture.

Giants, can you provide scripture that says God cannot cause or bring about evil/bad/calamity/disasters?

The WORD doesnt contradict itself. The Word EVIL is translated as many different things. One of the translations ( and the one that fits that verse and fits what Scripture says about GOD ) is that God allows Calamity or misfortune to happen.

And that is what that verse is saying.

Isaiah 45:7 says:
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

To change the word “creating” to “allow” is adding to or changing scripture. This is God telling us about HIMSELF. He’s letting us in on this part of Himself, just as He does throughout all of scripture.

You must reconcile scripture with scripture. If God is the creator and progenitor of evil then He CANNOT be HOLY in ALL His ways. That is a contradiction to the Word of God. He cannot be RIGHTEOUS.

I'm sorry you feel this way. God’s bringing about evil acts/calamity/disasters doesn’t make Him unholy. His holiness is never at risk nor compromised based on anything that He does. God’s holiness isn't based on what He does, it's based on who He is. To tie it to what He does leaves Him open to judgement, thus leaving His holiness up for debate, which it most certainly is not.

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Is God really the one who created evil? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil "rah" is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translatedas "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble."

So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV;

Agreed.

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters, and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc..

Agreed. This particular verse is talking about a natural disaster, but natural disasters are not the only types of bad events/evil that God brings forth. The crucifixtion of Jesus is one of several examples.

Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, judgement and disciplining His people.

Giants, that is one of the purposes of this thread; to get a better understanding of why God has done what He's done in the past. Since God is same today as He was back then, we can gain insight into how He works today. But first we have to understand the "what" which is "evil acts".

Amen to the last sentence. That is what we've been saying all along; whatever He does is just.

Secondlt there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.

There are hundreds of verses that say that God is pure. that's has nothing to do with Him causes evil acts or calamities. And you're tying two separate things here. God absolutely will not approve of the evil that WE do. That's different from what God does.

You can't give a newborn baby a machete and then tell him to carve out a beautiful desk. That's like God giving us evil and telling us to make something beautiful out of it. It can't be done. That's why OUR use of it is sin. But God WILL make something wonderful, beautiful and perfect emerge from what He does.

“The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).

Good scripture. His work and His ways are just, faithful and without injustice, righteous and upright. That includes all of His work.

"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13)

Amen. God will not approve of evil and wickedness. Moral evil (of men) is not the same as God's kind of evil that only He can do. There is no pureness and righteousness behind the evil of men, which is the distinction.

We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word "rah" (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually, the verse is speaking calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity. SImply put he WILL allow calamity and disaster to happen and sometimes He will create it as a form of judgement ( such as the plaques that fell on Egypt ). But God himself doesnt not create unrighteousness, unholiness or wickedness.

Agreed.

Lets get a proper understanding of what the scripture is saying when it says God creates evil, so that we can interpet correctly.

Amen! We are saying some of the same things, but I think you just don’t like the term “evil” being tied to anything that God does. Like Keita said, the term is just a matter of semantics. The understanding of it however, is not and we do want to make sure that we gain the proper understanding.

[anointedteacher]

God created the Law of Reaping and Sowing..... Calamity (evil) is the result of sin that is sown.
God created Righteous Jugdment and Wrath..... He judge nations, places, groups, churches, peoples and individual.
God Disciplines.... Nations, places, churches, people and individual.

Did God creates evil.... NO He created an angel that fell and became evil and introduced the world to evil.

AT

[ybrown]

anointedteacher said:

Did God creates evil.... NO He created an angel that fell and became evil and introduced the world to evil.

AT

We know that Satan first used evil, but who created it? Everything has a creator.

[auneeqsol]

Im looking at this in a sense of the fact that even though the scripture DOES say God created evil, Im thinking that it is never meant in the sense of him being evil. We know that the heart of God is not evil, so I have to think that whatever happens that deems to be evil God allowed it to come into manifestation in the earth. That's the only way i can see that right now. Because to say that God makes evil things happen would sort of put a twist on things. I was always taught that if there be anything evil going on he will commission an evil spirit to do the work , just like when Satan had to get permission to afflict Job, and when the lying spirit came up before God around the throne....things like that. God is not the trigger man, but he orchestrates everything.

[giantsdodie]

Moral evil (of men) is not the same as God's kind of evil that only He can do.

The God kind of evil ?!!!!!!!!!

I wash my hands of this topic from this point.

[ybrown]

giantsdodie said:

Moral evil (of men) is not the same as God's kind of evil that only He can do.

The God kind of evil ?!!!!!!!!!

I wash my hands of this topic from this point.

I don't understand the reaction. Isn't the term "evil" and whether or not God performs it, the topic at hand? Am I missing something?

Didn't you say evil in the bible is also referred to as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble."?

Would you prefer the sentence read instead: The God kind of wicked, bad, hurt, harm, etc.?

I was hoping that you would provide some of the scriptures that say that God cannot do, cause or bring about evil/bad/calamity/disasters. It certainly would have been helpful in the discussion, but if you want to leave the topic instead, I understand.

[Jasmine]

giantsdodie said:

He didnt create Evil because His Word SAYS HE cannot. Now either the Word is contradicting Itself or we have a MISUNDERSTANDING of that Scripture.

The WORD doesnt contradict itself. The Word EVIL is translated as many different things. One of the translations ( and the one that fits that verse and fits what Scripture says about GOD ) is that God allows Calamity or misfortune to happen.

And that is what that verse is saying.

You must reconcile scripture with scripture. If God is the creator and progenitor of evil then He CANNOT be HOLY in ALL His ways. That is a contradiction to the Word of God. He cannot be RIGHTEOUS.


(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Is God really the one who created evil? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil "rah" is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translatedas "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble."

So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV;

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters, and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. .

Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, judgement and disciplining His people.

Secondlt there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.

“The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).

"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).

We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word "rah" (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually, the verse is speaking calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity. SImply put he WILL allow calamity and disaster to happen and sometimes He will create it as a form of judgement ( such as the plaques that fell on Egypt ). But God himself doesnt not create unrighteousness, unholiness or wickedness.

Lets get a proper understanding of what the scripture is saying when it says God creates evil, so that we can interpet correctly.

U bettah Preach!

[keita]

Taken from:

Yahweh Creates Evil
by James Buckner[/b]


The following verses show that GOD CREATES evil, that he THREATENS people with evil, and that he SENDS evil spirits, among other things. As you read through these verses (and please don't skim quickly over them), note that these verses make it very clear that GOD is RESPONSIBLE for evil, and not simply a passive bystander "allowing" evil to happen.

I quote the first set of verses in several versions, because the newer translations try to soften the conflict by translating the Hebrew "ra" (evil) as "disaster" or "woe" or "calamity." But it doesn't really matter what English word is used. The hideous effects are the same, and GOD claims responsibility for them all.

Isaiah 45:7
NIV: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and CREATE DISASTER; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NASB: The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and CREATING CALAMITY; I am the Lord who does all these.

RSV: I form light and create darkness, I make weal and CREATE WOE, I am the Lord, who do[es] all these things.

KJV: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.

DBY: forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and CREATING EVIL: I, the Lord, do all these things.

YLT: Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and PREPARING EVIL, I [am] the Lord, doing all these things.'

Lamentations 3:38
NIV: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both CALAMITIES and good things come?

NASB: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ILL go forth?

RSV: Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and EVIL come?

KJV: Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL and good?

DBY: Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed EVIL and good?

YLT: From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the EVILS and the good.

Jeremiah 26:3
NIV: Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the DISASTER I was planning because of the evil they have done.

NASB: "Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the CALAMITY which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.'

RSV: It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the EVIL which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.

KJV: If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the EVIL, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

DBY: Peradventure they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the EVIL which I purpose to do unto them because of the wickedness of their doings.

YLT: If so be they hearken, and turn back each from his evil way, then I have repented concerning the EVIL that I am thinking of doing to them, because of the evil of their doings.

Additional Citations
Well, I have shown you enough examples of how the modern versions try to soften the original Hebrew word for "evil" by translating it in various ways. I will quote the remaining verses from the RSV, unless otherwise noted, and you can look up what your modern version says if you like:

Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the EVIL which I intend to do to them, so that every one may turn from his evil way, and that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Jeremiah 32:42 For thus says the Lord: Just as I have brought all this great EVIL upon this people, so I will bring upon them all the good that I promise them.

Amos 3:6 Does EVIL befall a city, unless the Lord has done it?

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore, thus says the Lord, Behold, I am bringing EVIL upon them which they cannot escape; though they cry to me, I will not listen to them.

Jeremiah 14:16 And the people to whom they are prophesying, Are cast into out-places of Jerusalem, Because of the famine, and of the sword, And they have none burying them, Them, their wives, and their sons, and their daughters, And I have poured out upon them this EVIL. (YLT)

Jeremiah 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping EVIL against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

Jeremiah 19:3 You shall say, 'Hear the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such EVIL upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.

Jeremiah 19:15 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon this city and upon all its towns all the EVIL that I have pronounced against it, because they have stiffened their neck, refusing to hear my words.

Jeremiah 23:12 Therefore their way shall be to them like slippery paths in the darkness, into which they shall be driven and fall; for I will bring EVIL upon them in the year of their punishment, says the Lord.

Jeremiah 26:13 Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God, and the Lord will repent of the EVIL which he has pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing on Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the EVIL that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them and they have not listened, I have called to them and they have not answered.

Jeremiah 36:31 And I will punish him and his offspring and his servants for their iniquity; I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the EVIL that I have pronounced against them, but they would not hear.

Jeremiah 40:2 The captain of the guard took Jeremiah and said to him, "The Lord your God pronounced this EVIL against this place;

Jeremiah 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I repent of the EVIL which I did to you.

Jeremiah 42:17 All the men who set their faces to go to Egypt to live there shall die by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence; they shall have no remnant or survivor from the EVIL which I will bring upon them.

Jeremiah 44:2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: You have seen all the EVIL that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them,

Jeremiah 45:5 And do you seek great things for yourself? Seek them not; for, behold, I am bringing EVIL upon all flesh, says the Lord; but I will give you your life as a prize of war in all places to which you may go.

Jeremiah 49:37 I will terrify Elam before their enemies, and before those who seek their life; I will bring EVIL upon them, my fierce anger, says the Lord. I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them;

Jeremiah 51:64 and say, 'Thus shall Babylon sink, to rise no more, because of the EVIL that I am bringing upon her.'" Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

Ezekiel 6:10 And they shall know that I am the Lord; I have not said in vain that I would do this EVIL to them.

Micah 2:3 Therefore thus says the Lord: Behold, against this family I am devising EVIL, from which you cannot remove your necks; and you shall not walk haughtily, for it will be an evil time.

1 Kings 21:29 Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the EVIL in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the EVIL upon his house.

2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus says the Lord, Behold, I will bring EVIL upon this place and upon its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which was read before the king of Judah.

2 Chronicles 34:28 Behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the EVIL which I will bring upon this place and its inhabitants.'" And they brought back word to the king.

1 Samuel 16:23 And whenever the EVIL spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the EVIL spirit departed from him.

1 Samuel 18:10 And on the morrow an EVIL spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand;

1 Samuel 19:9 Then an EVIL spirit from the Lord came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing the lyre.

1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an EVIL spirit from God is tormenting you.

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an EVIL spirit from the Lord tormented him.

Micah 1:12 For the inhabitants of Maroth wait anxiously for good, because EVIL has come down from the Lord to the gate of Jerusalem.

2 Samuel 12:11-12 Thus says the Lord, 'Behold, I will raise up EVIL against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.'

Judges 9:23 And God sent an EVIL spirit between Abim'elech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abim'elech;

1 Kings 14:10 therefore behold, I will bring EVIL upon the house of Jerobo'am, and will cut off from Jerobo'am every male, both bond and free in Israel, and will utterly consume the house of Jerobo'am, as a man burns up dung until it is all gone.

2 Kings 21:12 therefore thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon Jerusalem and Judah such EVIL that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.

Isaiah 31:2 And He also [is] wise, and bringeth in EVIL, And His words He hath not turned aside, And He hath risen against a house of evil doers, And against the help of workers of iniquity. (YLT)

Conclusion
So you can see that the Bible credits GOD with responsibility for EVIL. The old Christian ruse that GOD simply "allows" evil to happen cannot stand up to these biblical citations. For the Christian to deny this, he also has to deny the subject-verb grammar of God's Word, which is said to have been inspired down to the detail of the individual words chosen by the Holy Spirit.

So, either the Bible is not inerrant, or GOD is responsible for evil, creating it and putting it to use regularly.

[ybrown]

Keita, those scriptures sum it up beautifully. We serve a mighty and awesome God!

[keita]

giantsdodie said:

...God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity...

This statement is one which I and others have agreed with throughout this thread. It actually delineates and differentiates the "kind/type" of evil that God creates, rather than simply denying the preponderance of scriptural evidence that He does it...

Good Job!




Hey ybrown?

Do you remember a past discussion of Juanita Bynum's statement,

"God kills. And if you think He don't, keep acting crazy." ?

I remember it was hearing those very words that initially caused me to actually search the scriptures on this topic. That pursuit totally revolutionized my understanding and practice of spiritual warfare.

[keita]

ybrown said:

Keita, those scriptures sum it up beautifully. We serve a mighty and awesome God!

AMEN!

God is Sovereign!

Give NO place to the devil!!!

[ybrown]

keita said:

giantsdodie said:

...God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity...

This statement is one which I and others have agreed with throughout this thread. It actually delineates and differentiates the "kind/type" of evil that God creates, rather than simply denying the preponderance of scriptural evidence that He does it...

Good Job!




Hey ybrown?

Do you remember a past discussion of Juanita Bynum's statement,

"God kills. And if you think He don't, keep acting crazy." ?

I remember it was hearing those very words that initially caused me to actually search the scriptures on this topic. That pursuit totally revolutionized my understanding and practice of spiritual warfare.

Yes I do!! In fact it was something that was said on this board that got me to researching. All it takes is a seed to aid you on the path to His truth! ;D

And people think these boards are only for chatting!!

[krazeeboi]

I actually think we may be getting somewhere, especially in distinguishing between "natural evil" (disaster, calamity) and "moral evil." We've clarified a good bit about natural evil, but let's talk about moral evil for a minute. Yes, it has been established that God allows this for the furtherance of His purposes. But it can actually go beyond God simply allowing it; at least some of the time, He ordains it:

Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' " 'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." (1 Kings 22:19-23)

Also here's an excerpt from the article I cited earlier:

The death of Jesus offers another example of how God's sovereign will ordains that a sinful act come to pass. Edwards says, "The crucifying of Christ was a great sin; and as man committed it, it was exceedingly hateful and highly provoking to God. Yet upon many great considerations it was the will of God that it should be done." Then he refers to Acts 4:27-28, "Truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (see also Isaiah 53:10). In other words, all the sinful acts of Herod, Pilate, of Gentiles and Jews were predestined to occur.

[Jasmine]

I definitely believe that God kills. there's no doubt about that.

[Jasmine]

God did not create evil! I have read what has been posted and I say lets look at it this way:

Those of us who were punished when we were kids, especially when we were punished with the rod thought our parents were evil, that they did evil to us and we even thought evil thoughts about them. But when the pain stopped, they were the greatest. When we matured, we realized they were the greatest. We can pick out instances in the bible that doesn't mention the word evil and think that God did evil. For instance, in 1 Sam 15 when God told King Saul to kill all the Amalekites, men, women, infants and sucklings, oxen, asses, camels and sheep. That's just one and there are many more instances that we could label as evil.

An certainly the Amalekites would probably think that God is evil, but God has a purpose in every thing that he does and that purpose is with best in mind for those who trust him and love him. Jesus said in Lk.12:51 that he came to bring division rather than peace. Is this evil? Definitely not when we look at it in the context. and verses 42-50 tells the real story.

Here is a nugget: For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who don't want to believe, no proof is satisfactory to them.