Astrology

[nina2]

"Predicting the future is big business. From newspaper astrologers to corporate consultants, there are many people out there ready to profit from our insatiable desire to know the unknown.

Is there anything wrong with this? Can an intelligent person believe in astrology without feeling ridiculous?

It is fascinating to note that the rabbis of the Talmud gave considerable credence to astrology.
There is an uncomfortable contradiction inherent in all this.

Although astrology is prominent in rabbinic thought, Jewish law cautions against seeking the advice of astrologers.

But if astrology is a true science why not consult it?

(It must be noted, however, that not all the rabbis believed in the truth of astrology. In fact Judaism's great codifier and philosopher, Maimonides (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, 1138-1204), dismissed astrology as having no validity. See Maimonides' "Epistle to Yemen," Chapter 3, and his Commentary on the Mishna, Avodah Zarah 4:7.

It should also be noted that none of this is intended as an endorsement of the modern-day "astrology" practiced by pop-astrologers and published in internet and newspaper "horoscopes," which probably bear little or no relation to the ancient science of astrology mentioned by in the Talmud.)"

Can astrology be a "true science"?

[giantsdodie]

I think the question isnt whether intelligent people can believe in it Belier is always a choice. You can choose to believe anything you want. I believe the question is whether as children of God we should believe in this. And the answer to that question is no.

[livinganewlife]

Is astrology a science?

[giantsdodie]

livinganewlife said:

Is astrology a science?

Nope.. Astronomy is the science.. Astrology is divination.

[livinganewlife]

GDD, that is what I thought........

[nina2]

There was a time when there was a very fine line between astronomy and astrology. I guess astrology does involve studying stars, planets, whatever, rather closely. In ancient times, they had great knowledge about astronomy also.
So, I am not saying that astrology is indeed a science, at least not as it is understood nowadays.
But what about the Magi for exemple? Were they astronomers or astrologers?

[krazeeboi]

I've heard it stated that the Zodiac actually is a lesson in the Gospel, but has been perverted.

[giantsdodie]

Anything that involves reading the stars to predict the future is divination and expressly forbidden by the bible.

Astronomy and Astrology are totally different. The only similarity is that the both require you toi look up.

Astronomy is a science. It is the study of the objects in the Universe. Stars, planets and comets are examined to determine their structure and origin. As a science it has links with other sciences like mathematics, physics and chemistry. Astronomy treats the Earth as one of millions of bodies in the Universe.

Astrology is a belief system. The belief is that the positions of the Sun, Moon and planets against the starry background influences peoples' personalities and shapes their lives. An implicit assumption is that the Earth is a special part of the Universe.

Thus we see where atrology stands. In direct opposition to GOD and His word.

[nina2]

I've heard it stated that the Zodiac actually is a lesson in the Gospel, but has been perverted.

Dr Kennedy actually did speak about this a few years ago. Some completely misinterpreted what he was saying, of course, and accused him of heresy....

www.coralridge.org/zodiac.html

www.coralridge.org/CRMResCtrsearch.asp?sc=ProductDescription&search=zodiac

I know that we are forbidden to try and predict the future. That's the main reason why people get into astrology in the first place, because they want to know the future, one way or the other...

Those things never went away through out the ages. If anything, today, they are very much alive and well. They have a very broad audience, to say the least. Aside from what we can just assign to man inherent nature, why would God allow it? If it is forbidden, and it is, what examples do we have of Gods actions/judgements against astrologers?

He chose Abraham and his father, Terach, and his entire family, in their land of Chaldea. They worshipped idols and were very much into astrology.

Then, years later after that, we have:

The Book of Genesis relates that, following the death of Sarah, Abraham remarried and fathered more children:

To the sons of the concubines that Abraham had, he gave gifts. He sent them away from Isaac, his son, while he was still alive. He sent them eastward to the Land of the East. (Genesis 25:6)

(Those were not the sons of Keturah, she was his wife.)

"This passage has led some to claim that Eastern religious practices and healing methods are based on the ancient teachings of Abraham--the "gifts" that he sent to "the Land of the East."

However, the Genesis passage clearly states that Abraham wanted to send his younger sons "away from Isaac." As Isaac was the inheritor of his holy mission to spread the knowledge of the One God, Abraham sent away his foreign sons--who practiced idolatry--to prevent them from influencing Isaac."

I asked before what about the Magi because their role is just accepted as part of the folklore. Christmas comes around and here they come, strolling on their camels.
We don't have many details about them, we know that they studied the stars and how they discovered "the" star. They were divinely inspired.
And God kept watching over them, and even made sure that they went back to their "heathen" land safely. What if they were the descendants of those foreign sons of Abraham? What if it was God's way to show that he had not forgotten them or lost sight of them?
They were sent away by their father, with gifts, became kings. They came back with gifts, for the King, and they were the only ones to know him, by God's design.

We don't know, it's not written....

Somebody, somewhere, is always picking up some pieces left along the road, something from the Scriptures, and turning it into something completely different.
It's not just astrology, some of those other teachings can actually sound good, and a lot of people listen to them, or read the books, whether they admit it or not.
Actually, I would dare to say that through the ages, and up until now, the occult has never been very far from Christianity..

Should we care about the Magi, who they were, why? Does it matter that God took the time, and went through great length to reveal those things to them first, not even to the Jews?
If it's written about them, I believe it does. It might not turn the world on its head, or maybe it would, the way things are going.

Stars are mentioned a great number of times in the Bible, and not only in the Old Testament. They are mentioned in major prophecies.

What about this one in the book of Revelation:

Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

We all remember the tragedy that happened when the members of that cult committed suicide believing that the Haley's comet was in fact that star annoucing the end of the world.

Even the scholars on Bible prophecy can't agree on it anyway. Some say it is a real star falling or many other interpretations.

There are new stars being named every day. Should we be worried? No. Should we be aware? I would say yes.

Nothing happens that God has not spoken but, if the Lord tarries, we should be able to talk about that and more, because the devil knows the scriptures too, and he's been using them against us ever since the Garden.

[giantsdodie]

I dont understand your point or your direction. You are asking why GOD allows a thing.. We could ask that questions about hundreds of things. Why does God even allow the devil to exist. Why does God allow spousal abuse. Why does God allow children in Africa to die of starvation. Why does God allow AIDS.

Then you make this statement

"Actually, I would dare to say that through the ages, and up until now, the occult has never been very far from Christianity.."

Nothing could be absolutely further from the truth.

I really dont understand your point here. You have a lot of what ifs and conjecture. I will be honest I try my best not to engage in that because in all honesty with enough what iff you can make anything sound plausible.

I believe we need to realize that YES God does use nature to reveal HIS glory. YES God has done things like stop the sun from moving, and apparently caused a star to appear and then move across the heavens to stop at Bethlehem ( which would have attracted the attention of ANY modern astronomer because that just doesnt happen )

The question however IMO is this. What does that mean for us. Does that mean we should now start looking to the heavens for signs I dont think so.

There are no new stars by the way. That just our perception that they are new. They have been there we just havent seen them before.

Your interpretation of the occult is vastly different from my own. Nothing can be remotely close to Christianity is JESUS is not the centraol focus and figure. If HE is seen for who He truly is which is GOD made manifest in the flesh, then it aint even close.

Again Study of the Sky doesnt necessarily have a thing to do with astrology. Astology is a belief system that does not have JESUS as the CORE and FOUNDATION of its belief system. It believe that the stars affect and even control peoples lives which is totally against what the Bible says. If it is in DIRECT oppositon to the Word of God. It is not close to Christianity.

[nina2]

OK... Just to clarify a few things, because I know for a fact that this is not the best way/mean to convey anything:

- I don't ask why God allows anything, in that sense. I mentioned that astrology and other practices have existed, obviously for eons, and that God used people involved in those things, for his purpose. I don't question God, nor do I argue with him.

- When I said that "the occult has never been far from Christianity", I never meant that Christianity and the occult were one and the same in any way.
What I meant is that, again, through time and history, we know that very often the church allowed itself to fall, secretely or not, into practices that had nothing to do with Christianity and were occult practices. And that, in the process, very innocent people were lead to believe that they were right.

- It is true that with enough ifs and whats we could make anything sound plausible. That is not my intent. If something is written, it is for us to understand, and that does involve asking questions... If I don't understand, I accept it.

- "The question however IMO is this. What does that mean for us. Does that mean we should now start looking to the heavens for signs?"
Exactly. No, we should not start looking to the heavens for signs. We need to know why we should not, and others who might look for signs, need also to know it. Talking about astrology does not make one a believer in it.

- "Again Study of the Sky doesnt necessarily have a thing to do with astrology. Astology is a belief system that does not have JESUS as the CORE and FOUNDATION of its belief system. It believe that the stars affect and even control peoples lives which is totally against what the Bible says. If it is in DIRECT oppositon to the Word of God. It is not close to Christianity."

Just to make sure: I did not mean that the occult and Christianity were one and the same. My life is very much Christ centered.

I do think that not talking about something does not make it go away. Keeping silent can lead others to believe that if nobody says no, then it must be all right.
The church has ignored many things, and they have been thrown back in her face. It's the leaven factor... It's true for astrology or anything New Age that some might not think about as harmful, it's true for homosexuality, adultery, etc...
For a long time, many have been trying to figure out how close they can get to the fire without being burnt. Many have been burnt, and maybe it's because the church as looked the other way.

[giantsdodie]

Thank you.. I have greater clarity on your points and position...

I believe that what needs to happen next is that we must examine what the Bible says regarding these things because that is what we must reference when speaking to other people.

[keita]

giantsdodie said:

I believe that what needs to happen next is that we must examine what the Bible says regarding these things because that is what we must reference when speaking to other people.

Knowing that God does not contradict Himself and that scripture interprets scripture, we have:

Some Bible Verses Often Used to Support Astrology

Genesis 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:"

Genesis 37:9 "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

Judges 5:20 "They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses(transits) fought against Sisera.

Job 38:31-33 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth(the Zodiac) in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Psalms 8:3 "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;"

Psalms 147:4 "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names."

Jeremiah 31:35 "Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night..."

Matthew 2:1-2 "...there came wise men(astrologers/magicians)from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Luke 21:25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;..."

I Corinthians 15:41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

AND

Some Bible Verses Often Used to Discredit Astrology

Leviticus 19:26 "Ye shall not eat anything with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

Deuteronomy 4:16-19"Lest ye corrupt yourselves,...And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,"

Isaiah 47:13-14 "Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognostigators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

Hmmmmm....

Btw, there are no "astronomers", per se, in the bible. "Astrology" was the only term given to the science of measuring the heavens from ancient/biblical times. So folks like the Magi and the Issacharites were "astrologers".

The distinction between "astrology" and "astronomy" did not come about until later, and much more recently, in order to determine a science and extract it from the mythical system that had been developed around "astrology".

In doing so, imho, the perfect, beautiful baby (God's Wisdom and Truth) got thrown out with the dirty bathwater (Satan's perversion).

[keita]

BUMP.