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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 14, 2009 11:53:33 GMT -5
I was just reading an op-ed in the NY Times about how the recession is disproportionately impacting Blacks, and ran across this excerpt in the part of the op-ed about how Blacks were specifically targeted for sub-prime mortgages and how the so-called "prosperity gospel" might have set us up to get lured into those: If any cultural factor predisposed blacks to fall for risky loans, it was one widely shared with whites — a penchant for “positive thinking” and unwarranted optimism, which takes the theological form of the “prosperity gospel.” Since “God wants to prosper you,” all you have to do to get something is “name it and claim it.” A 2000 DVD from the black evangelist Creflo Dollar featured African-American parishioners shouting, “I want my stuff — right now!”
Joel Osteen, the white megachurch pastor who draws 40,000 worshippers each Sunday, about two-thirds of them black and Latino, likes to relate how he himself succumbed to God’s urgings — conveyed by his wife — to upgrade to a larger house. According to Jonathan Walton, a religion professor at the University of California at Riverside, pastors like Mr. Osteen reassured people about subprime mortgages by getting them to believe that “God caused the bank to ignore my credit score and bless me with my first house.” If African-Americans made any collective mistake in the mid-’00s, it was to embrace white culture too enthusiastically, and substitute the individual wish-fulfillment promoted by Norman Vincent Peale for the collective-action message of Martin Luther King. What do you guys think? I never really considered it from this angle before. |
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Post by giantsdodie on Sept 14, 2009 11:59:31 GMT -5
I was just reading an op-ed in the NY Times about how the recession is disproportionately impacting Blacks, and ran across this excerpt in the part of the op-ed about how Blacks were specifically targeted for sub-prime mortgages and how the so-called "prosperity gospel" might have set us up to get lured into those: If any cultural factor predisposed blacks to fall for risky loans, it was one widely shared with whites — a penchant for “positive thinking” and unwarranted optimism, which takes the theological form of the “prosperity gospel.” Since “God wants to prosper you,” all you have to do to get something is “name it and claim it.” A 2000 DVD from the black evangelist Creflo Dollar featured African-American parishioners shouting, “I want my stuff — right now!”
Joel Osteen, the white megachurch pastor who draws 40,000 worshippers each Sunday, about two-thirds of them black and Latino, likes to relate how he himself succumbed to God’s urgings — conveyed by his wife — to upgrade to a larger house. According to Jonathan Walton, a religion professor at the University of California at Riverside, pastors like Mr. Osteen reassured people about subprime mortgages by getting them to believe that “God caused the bank to ignore my credit score and bless me with my first house.” If African-Americans made any collective mistake in the mid-’00s, it was to embrace white culture too enthusiastically, and substitute the individual wish-fulfillment promoted by Norman Vincent Peale for the collective-action message of Martin Luther King. What do you guys think? I never really considered it from this angle before. Interesting... thoughts to come... |
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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 14, 2009 12:58:41 GMT -5
One thing I will say is that I despise this nonsense referred to in the article that says, “God caused the bank to ignore my credit score and bless me with my first house” and all of this talk about "supernatural debt cancellation." I think all that does is encourage a mindset of excessive consumerism and living above our means, especially when all of that is said to a group (African Americans) that have historically not had much, materially speaking. We long to be participants in the "American dream" from which we have been excluded for so long, so when that desire is hooked up to (bad) theology, you get stuff like this.
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Post by giantsdodie on Sept 14, 2009 13:15:07 GMT -5
Here is the issue I have with this. I have no issue with teaching that GOD desires for His people to be blessed and to prosper. That is biblical and irrefutable. I have an issue with much of the so called " prosperity gospel" especially when it does not teach HOW to prosper and does not teach the PURPOSE for Biblical Prosperity. I have an issue when prosperity is taught wuth the exclusion of all else. For the writer who commented on Creflo Dollar I would suggest he/she aquire his teaching on 14 steps to BIBLICAL Prosperity which I found to be accurate. And I will freely admit there have been times I have not agreed with my brother Pastor Dollar but this one was on point. Now as far as this leading people into the sub prime mortage mess I can agree that there are many people, christian and non christian alike who did not use WISDOM in the acquisition of these homes. GOD can and surely will work around a persons credit rating and history to bless a person with what HE wants them to have. It may very well have been GOD's will to give Pastor Osteen a larger house. However the problem is each person needs to cheeck with GOD to see what HIS WILL for THEM is personally. It might not be GOD's will for YOU to have a house at this time.. or maybe not THIS house... For example I know the area where GOD wants me to have a house. It is a very expensive area in upstate NY. He has told me exact details about the house. He has told me that I would need a miracle from HIM to get it.... In fact I wasnt even looking at a house in this area. I was looking in a completely different area.. as I was looking in that area I was thinking.. I can do this.. I can afford these houses... It was GOD who said.. NO.. I dont want you there.. your house is HERE.. as I did research I said GOD I cant afford these houses.. look at the taxes ALONE every year... GOD said GOOD thats where I want you.. someplace where you cannot rely on yourself and your OWN ability to get it... to get it you will have to come through ME.. He said I have a Miracle there for you.. bu you will have to come THROUGH ME to get it... But He HASNT Told me to go get it... and thats the difference.. We as the children of GOD need to learn to operate by GODS instructions and NOT our intuition... See and that is the issue for me.. FAITH is based on THE WORD OF GOD.. both the logos AND the rhema... did GOD tell you go get that house.. use THAT mortgage company  I have no doubt that some people went forward and did things them were not instructed to do BY GOD believe that GOD would bless them for it... And a word on name and claim.. I believe in name it and claim it.. anything GOD has named for me and claimed for ME I can have... Now the WHEN I can have it is another issue entirely... |
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Post by kitty on Sept 14, 2009 14:38:38 GMT -5
Krazeboi,
I do believe that those teaching may have helped many people into situations that they couldn't afford. And not just with houses but also with cars... However... I think the major reason that Blacks were hit with subprime mortages was racism plain and simple. There were studies that showed how many Blacks with good credit were also offered nothing but those types of loans.
Secondly I think a lack of education about money and interest rates was the second reason that may people ended up in this kind of situation. Many just didn't have a clue of what they were getting into. Not to mention that many people were flat out and lied too. They were told that the interest rate would never go past a certain rate but that was untrue...
Even still Black are targeted... Many now know the deal and are still being denied the chance to refinance ever though they credit is not that bad... I personally know a few of them personally.
Kitty
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Post by Nikkol on Sept 14, 2009 14:56:51 GMT -5
Can someone/anyone get some documenting? Not that I don't agree with what's being said, but numbers would be helpful for me.
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Post by anointed on Sept 14, 2009 18:08:26 GMT -5
Krazeeboi,
Have you ever read the book, What's Wrong with Being Black? by Matthew Ashimolowo? An interesting read.
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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 14, 2009 18:23:15 GMT -5
Can someone/anyone get some documenting? Not that I don't agree with what's being said, but numbers would be helpful for me. What kinds of documents? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 14, 2009 18:23:50 GMT -5
Krazeeboi, Have you ever read the book, What's Wrong with Being Black? by Matthew Ashimolowo? An interesting read. No, I'll have to check that out. |
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Post by Nikkol on Sept 17, 2009 8:36:38 GMT -5
Can someone/anyone get some documenting? Not that I don't agree with what's being said, but numbers would be helpful for me. What kinds of documents? Documents or "polls".... I know that many times it's said that things hit AA's harder....but I just wanted to see some documentation of the same. Before I can make a sound decision.... |
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Post by krazeeboi on Sept 17, 2009 18:48:56 GMT -5
Documents or "polls".... I know that many times it's said that things hit AA's harder....but I just wanted to see some documentation of the same. Before I can make a sound decision.... Check the link to the full op-ed in the first post. You can also go here. |
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Post by stillfocused on Oct 8, 2009 22:58:30 GMT -5
There is some truth in this..I find this to very interesting. As it presents another perspective.
I told through a "prosphey" that I needed to just step out in faith and buy a house and stop walking in fear..many were told that and trusted the words of the man of God and because subprime lending was a hot many brought houses. Had I brought the house...I would have lost it. God told let me know that making snap decisions were no longer part of make-up and that the timing was not right.
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Post by stillfocused on Oct 8, 2009 23:02:02 GMT -5
I had have creditors calling about credit card debt....about a store that is no longer open..they have been out of business for more than 20 years
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Post by kitty on Oct 10, 2009 18:49:43 GMT -5
Stillfocused....
You are so right! Your testimony reminds me of a friend of mine...
About 2 years ago a good friend who was making good money over 90K and living in a house that was paid for got in over her head the same way....
She and her mother believed that God wanted more for them and and fell in love with the idea that they should live in a million dollar home. In fact they fell in love with a particular house that was a 5-6 level home... Yes that's right the house has about 5 or 6 floors. It also includes a indoor heated swiming pool.
The owner of the home made it very possible for them to buy it... In fact the guy brought their current home which was paid for in order to help them qualify for the loan that they were seeking. In all of this.... All she and her mother needed was for some visiting preacher somewhere to state that God had big plans for them... a house .... to decide that they had confirmation for their desires.... Never mind that the most common prophesies out there are for a car, a job, a house, or a spouse... Heck some people with prophey that too you regardless of your status. For example... I had some declare that I was looking for a job in a point in time when I was not.... But anyways...
This friend then decided that she had the green light from God... She and her mother brought the house with apparently a mortage that they could not afford... They took the fact that the owner was looking to sale and brought their home as a sign that this was from God. The owner even let them have furniture that they liked so again... As far as they were concerned... This was God making a way...
Less then a year after they moved into the home this very same friend called me several times in an apparent "shake down" for money towards a furneral. Her brother died and she wanted 2K. I was really surprised guys! I mean this was a person that was making close to if not 100k! So I questioned her about why she didn't have the money she needed... She stated that she was "in over her head" with bills. In order to pay them she was "working around the clock" to make ends meet.
A different friend loaned her the 2K and after a year and half she still had not paid this person back....
It's is apparent to me that maybe this wasn't God's plan... After all she couldn't afford her desires I believe that if it was God's will then He would have provided a way to maintain not just get the house....
Kitty
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Post by kitty on Oct 10, 2009 19:01:05 GMT -5
StillFocused...
My mother has the same problem... a debt collector keeps calling her for a Cingular cell phone bill in which they ask for 4 times the amount owed!!! Cingular her been gone for about 4 years now and the bill they they are refering to was for 2005. When they call I tell those jokers all the time that they are crazy if they think they are going to that kind of money for a cell phone bill that wasn't run up that amount for a company that is now gone!
Then they got the never to want to bargain the amount down... will u settle for $600 for $500 as if they are doing her a "favor". I tell them... We'll just wait for 3 more years for this to drop off her credit... which is fine anyways!
Oh yeah... That credit for a store closed 20 years is way past the time it should have been dropped from your credit report... You shuld just tell those creditors that you will make the moves to have it officially removed from your credit report and to stop calling you!
Kitty
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