This is what we need to be seeing more of

[And Such Were Some Of You]

I really do understand the stance that you are taking and at one time I was also very dogmatic about it. I think that what did it for me is when I think about all that I have done, my faults and what may happen in the future, that although God is not pleased with my sin, He will not divorce me.

Surely, I do not want one spouse murdered by the other. I am not saying that. However, I just cannot counsel one to divorce their spouse. It is not my place to do so. As a biblical counselor I can speak to them what the bible says about marriage, divorce, husbands, wives and their relationship to one another. After the TRUTH has been presented, it is up to them to see what God is speaking to him/her/both in the matter.

And as for the case in the OP, you are correct, it does seem as if the husband has no desire to honor his vows. However, he has not left and the wife does not want him to leave. In that case, I would say NOT to divorce only because neither have left. My friend's mom went through this exact same thing. It was to the point where her husband actually moved out and went to live with the mistress. It went on for years and she just kept saying that she believes she is not to divorce her husband. Of course everyone told her that she has the "right" to divorce but she continued to say no. Her husband would only come back when the mistress would kick him out for one reason or another. To cut it short the husband is now back home (and has been for about 3 years now). They now have a ministry together ministering to other married couples. Of course, this is an extreme case and all may not be this bad, but if one marriage can be saved through their testimony then it was well worth the battle.

[Nikkol]

I think where physical abuse is discussed, I think that we all agree that the person should separate for peace sake....

And for me, being that I don't agree with remarriage if the spouse is still alive, to go through the difficulties and pay a lot of money to divorce doesn't make sense.

The scripture does say that if the unbelieving wants to stay, that the other spouse shouldn't leave.

[anointedteacher]

I got this from another board;

The Dark Side of Submission
Wednesday, 04 November 2009 10:36 AM EST J. Lee Grady

Christian teaching on male headship is often used as a weapon against women. This abuse must be confronted. Last week during a ministry trip to Hungary I heard a painfully familiar story. Through a translator, a tearful young woman living near Budapest explained that her Christian husband was angrily demanding her absolute submission. This included, among other things, that she clean their house according to his strict standards and that she engage in sexual acts with him that made her feel uncomfortable and dirty.

This lady was not demanding her rights or trying to be disrespectful. She was a godly, humble woman who obviously wanted to please the Lord. But she had been beaten to a pulp emotionally, and she was receiving little help from her pastor—who was either unwilling or unprepared to confront wife abuse.

"Traditionalists assume that a Christian marriage is defined as a dominant husband who makes all family decisions while the wife graciously obeys without input. Yet Scripture actually portrays marriage as a loving partnership."

I've heard so many sickening versions of this scenario. In Kenya recently, several women told me their AIDS-infected husbands often raped them—and then their pastors told them they must submit to this treatment. In some parts of India, even some pastors believe it is acceptable to beat their wives if they argue with them or show any form of disrespect. And in some conservative churches in the United States, women are told that obedience to God is measured by their wifely submission—even if their husbands are addicted to alcohol or pornography, or if they are involved in adulterous affairs.

This distortion of biblical teaching has plunged countless Christian women into depression and emotional trauma. I'm not sure which is worse: The harsh words they hear from their husbands, or the perverse way the Bible is wielded as a leather belt to justify domestic abuse. Here are three truths we must uncover in order to solve this problem:


1. Marriage is not a hierarchy. Traditionalists assume that a Christian marriage is defined as a dominant husband who makes all family decisions while the wife graciously obeys without input. Yet Scripture actually portrays marriage as a loving partnership and refers to the wife as a "fellow heir of the grace of life" (1 Peter 3:7, NASB). And the apostle Paul taught that in the realm of sexuality, husbands and wives share equal authority over each other's bodies (see 1 Cor. 7:4). In other words, submission in this most intimate part of a marriage covenant is mutual, and this same mutuality is the key to any happy marriage; it fosters respect, communication and an enduring bond.

2. Headship is not a license to control. Traditionalists also cite Ephesians 5:23 to remind wives that their husbands are their "heads"—and they believe this term requires some type of dictatorial control in marriage. Yet the Greek word used in this passage, kephale, does not have anything to do with heavy-handed authority and it cannot be used to enforce male domination. Neither does it imply male superiority. The word can either mean "source" (as in the source of a river) or "one who leads into battle" (as a protector).

Neither original definition of this word gives room for abuse. Headship, in its essence, is not about "who's the boss." Rather it refers to the Genesis account of Eve being taken from Adam's side. The husband is the "source" of the wife because she originated from him, and she is intimately connected to him in a mystical union that is unlike any other human relationship.

3. Men who abuse their wives are out of fellowship with God. 1 Peter 3:7 is clear: "You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so your prayers will not be hindered." Wife abuse is no trivial sin. Any man who berates his wife, treats her as inferior or engages in abusive behavior (including hitting, kicking, raping, cursing at or threatening punishment) will jeopardize his fellowship with the Lord. He will feel frustrated and convicted until he repents.

(And in the same way, I believe, pastors who silently support abusive husbands by refusing to confront the behavior—or by telling women to submit to the pain—participate in this sin and could find their own prayers hindered.)

Truly Christian marriages, according to the apostle Paul, involve a tender, servant-hearted and unselfish husband who (1) loves his wife "just as Christ also loved the church;" (2) loves her as his own body; and (3) loves her as himself (see Eph. 5:25, 28 and 33). He stands alongside his wife in faithfulness, and she joyfully respects her husband because he can be trusted. And the two become one.

If we are to uphold this golden standard, we must confront abuse, shelter its victims and provide the tough love and counseling necessary to heal troubled relationships. And we have no business telling women to stay in marriages that actually could put them or their children in danger.

J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

anointedteacher, I don't believe anyone disagrees with any of that. I would not tell a woman to stay in a relationship but nor will I tell her to divorce. it is not my place to do that. I would always recommend separation for the sake of safety. what she chooses to do from there is between her and God.

[Nikkol]

Let me start with this backdrop. Many times, these things are written and told based on one's culture/surroundings. And because of that, a person's view can sometimes be skewed....

Of course as ASWSOY has pointed out, noone has said anything about staying in a marriage by which a person is being physically abused. One should separate for peace sake. And I would tell someone regarding physical abuse that for peace sake, they should leave. (however, I'm learning more and more that some women only tell HALF the story....ie they leave out the part that they're beating on their husband as well...)

But just how based on culture ppl take things differently, I am one that believes that the husband is the HEAD of the household and I am to submit to that. What that means is that if there's a disagreement between my husband and I, the final decision is made by the husband. This also includes if I want to go anywhere, etc., I'll ask my husband first to make sure it's ok. To MANY ppl, they see that as me not standing up as a woman and say "there's NO WAY, I'd do that." But I've learned that submission, although we're in a period of time by which "women's lib" is VERY dominant, is still meaning that I need to obey my husband. Is that easy to do all the time? Of course not. Do I believe that it's the biblical way? Yes I do. Does it mean that sometimes I may have to do/not do certain things? Yes. But at the end, I'll be held accountable for what I did, irrespective of what he does.

I think it's "interesting" how based on culture ppl will see things differently. I remember when we first went to war in Iraq and the stories were told about how some ppl were "sold" into marriage and they had to cover up from head to toe and the women weren't suppose to be talking to men, etc. how many ppl felt like it was such a HORRIBLE thing and how dare anyone get married like that and the women are so bound. And unfortunately (yes, I said unfortunately) many times, we (general) come and change their culture and tell the women they can basically do what they want and causes and downward effect by which now they're dealing with high divorce rate and many ppl dressing very provocatively.... I've learned that when you give ppl an inch when they're use to doing things one way, many times, they go to the extreme before (PRAYERFULLY) they can find a good medium...

Having said that, in the story above, the point was that as Christians, there's no reason why our divorce rate should be so high where ppl divorce and remarry and divorce and remarry. We should be able to prayerfully deal with ALL situations knowing that the two are now one flesh and understand that no matter what, I'm going to stay true to what I'm supposed to do. This by no means is saying that a person who's getting beat up should stay in the same house.....they should separate for peace sake...and prayerfully, healing can occur.....

For me, I can't biblically tell someone that if a person commits adultery that that is grounds for divorce.....I wish I could at times. But what this story tells is that no matter what, you can make a marriage work. Can it be hard sometimes? Yes. But that's what you may have to deal with....and I think that if ppl really took marriage seriously and as it is stated, shouldn't be taken lightly, we could work through ANYTHING...even infidelity. There are stories after stories of ppl that were able to make it work....and so the question is, if they can, why can't we as HG filled believers make it work? Truth be told, as many times as we've "played the harlot" with the enemy....yet, God STILL takes us back and he KNOWS if we're going to go out there and do it again...even when he takes us back....now THAT's love.....

[giantsdodie]

Excellent Post Nikkol.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

I agree. Good one Nikkol!

[kitty]

Hey Guys,
I too would like to see more strong marriages within the church. But I don't think the original story posted for this discussion is an example of how to get there. If people want to look at how something ends or why it ends the way it does all one has to do is to go to the begining....

I bet a million dollars that this particular guy was showing signs and exhibiting behavior during dating and courtship that he wasn't going to be husband material. This woman isn't showing me that she's standing on faith on her marriage. She showing me that she desperate to hold on to a man... Even to the point of denial about his true character. There is nothing that is stated that even remotely suggests that he is a good man or worth holding on to in the name of marriage.

Yes many people will say... But he hasn't left her... My answer to that is this... He doesn't have to leave her. She is declaring that she is accepting of any and all behavior. She can't have, demand or ask for any standards in her marriage because she knows she won't receive it. There isn't one line that suggests that they are in conseling or that he has repented or changed. I don't see that as the same as being submissive to a husband or to God.

In my opinion the way for us to have better marriages starts in the beginning before two people get married. It means following God's word for our lives and looking for someone who does the same. It mean looking for someone that has a Godly character as the number one reason to marry them. And that goes beyond what ever persona a person presents to the world because we all know that there are plenty of people who claim to be top notch pastors or preachers but are horrible acting in their personal lives and make awful husabnds and wives. I think it means being prayerful about who we marry. I think it mean going to premartial counseling ahead of time.

How may people marry due to lust, looks and how much money a persona makes? How may people marry due to power and prestige? Is it possible that this woman was enamoured with the fact that her husband was a job with televsion? People in the entertainment business are notorious for not being able to stay faithful and have people of women chasing them around. Is it possible that she was always turning a blind eye to his behavior but now this time it's out in the open and she feels the need to justify her behavior by seeming being noble?

Like said before... I won't declare that every couple get a divorce due to cheating... But there are very well some that should. And whether it be our personal beliefs or not. God does bibically give us that way out of situations that all the prayer in the world won't change.

Kitty

[Nikkol]

1. I think it’s kinda bold to say that he was showing signs of not being “husband material” – I mean even defining “husband material” can be questioned.
2. Why does the fact that she is staying with her husband indicate desperation? Why can’t it just be that she truly believes that marriage is for life and she’s going to hold on to it? Shouldn’t that be praised?
3. What does being a “good man” have to do with holding onto a marriage? Isn’t the fact that you said you were going to be with this man through better or worse/until death hold enough credence to hold onto the marriage?
4. I think that we can say that she has accepted the fact that it has happened…not sure how that means she can’t ask/request standards nor that she won’t receive it. And though there is no mention of counseling or him repenting (though I know on the grand scale he did make an apology) doesn’t mean that it’s not being done
5. I think that what it shows is that we’re held responsible for how we respond/react to situations. She could’ve chose to do what many ppl do…when they hit the “worse” in their marriage, they leave. But she chose to stay and that should be commended. And when we think of all the times that we’ve done something against God and yet have stayed, it definitely shows his faithfulness…sometimes ppl do make mistakes (even ones of this magnitude)…but if you say that you really love someone, are you (general) willing to do what it takes to make it work….even if it hurts?
6. I think we can agree that one should be prayerful when it comes to who to marry. At the same time, even with premarital counseling, that’s just the “tip of the iceberg” so to speak. Ppl in marriages go through different things and what works with one couple doesn’t necessarily have to work with another. Marriage is WORK…everyone has good marriage days and bad marriage days…and just because you (general) are having one of those bad marriage moments doesn’t mean that that wasn’t the person you were suppose to marry or that a person is awful.
7. I’m a little confused because it seems like you are wanting her to justify why she’s staying with her husband? Like forget that the two have now become one flesh and that no man should put asunder what God has joined (being the fact that they are now one flesh). Granted we know that what is done in the dark has a tendency to come out into the light…and this was the way to let others see how love does cover a multitude of sins/faults
8.

God does bibically give us that way out of situations that all the prayer in the world won't change.

Could you elaborate?

[keita]

As a longtime member of HOR, I'm certainly not surprised at all that within 3 posts, this discussion wandered off into the topic of Christian marital separation, divorce and remarriage.

But I did get a chuckle while reading along because neither Dawn Stensland (subject of the original post) nor her husband are, at this point, actually doing any of the three.

(Btw, for those who were wondering if Dawn Stensland is a Christian, I don't know how she's believeing, but I did read an interview where it was reported that "she turns to her Bible verses for strength and comfort".)

Now, like so many, I would also love to see more, especially Christian, marriages remain intact.
And even more than simply "lasting", which, on its own is a lot less impressive to me than it may be to others, I would love to see more Christian marriages actually thrive as examples of Christ's union with His Body.

But in no way does any of that desire mean that I also would love to see more (or for that matter, fewer) Christians decide to remain in a marriage relationship where adultery has been committed. And I would neither encourage nor discourage anyone to do so.

That's because I believe that, according to scripture, whether to continue or end a marriage where adultery has occurred is primarily the decision of the injured partner and ultimately between that couple and GOD.

And I believe that, scripturally speaking, neither decision is inherently or prescriptively any better than the other. Because I believe that, according to scripture, both continuing and ending a marriage, depending on how and why it's being done, can most certainly be GODly... or not.

So at this point, to me, Dawn Stensland is no more or less than a woman who has made a personal choice to remain in her marriage after her husband committed adultery.

And to me, that choice is no more or less commendable than if she had made, or makes, a personal choice to end the marriage.

But I truly do hope that love, truth, and liberty are the basis for Dawn Stensland's choice.

And I sincerely wish her peace and blessings in it.

[keita]

Now with that said, and on another note.........


Frankly, I think GOD's mind toward any adulterers found among HIS people is very clearly expressed in HIS Law:

STONE 'EM.

And I daresay there are many betrayed spouses, Christian or otherwise, who feel exactly the same way.

Nov 30, 2009 8:45:41 GMT -5 Nikkol said:

I think it's "interesting" how based on culture ppl will see things differently

Me too.

And for many people, including myself, stoning adulterers is one of those "things" and indeed there are cultures around the world who continue to practice it.

Nov 30, 2009 8:45:41 GMT -5 Nikkol said:

...unfortunately (yes, I said unfortunately) many times, we (general) come and change their culture and tell the women they can basically do what they want and causes and downward effect by which now they're dealing with high divorce rate...

Interestingly, the vast majority of people killed in countries where stoning adulterers is practiced are (still) women.

And I'm sure the practice of stoning adulterers did and does indeed lower the divorce rate.

But imo, and just as I believe is the case with failing Christian marriages, the rate of divorce is simply not the issue.

And neither are free women.

I believe GOD legislating adultery as an offense punishable by death, especially such a cruel, bloody, painful one, was intended to cause HIS people to take committing adultery VERY seriously.

And Christians should know and always remember that Jesus did not come to change one bit of GOD's Law, but to fulfill it.

So, personally, the severe punishment GOD assigned to adulterers inclines me to believe that GOD hates adultery...A LOT.

Certainly far more than divorce.
Which, in truth, GOD doesn't hate at all.

And HE never said HE did.

So when adultery (as well as any other marital treachery) and divorce among Christians is the topic, I think we (general) really need to shift our focus away from divorce and onto that which is actually sin.

[Poetricia (G.A.P.)]

Dec 2, 2009 1:23:47 GMT -5 keita said:

Interestingly, the vast majority of people killed in countries where stoning adulterers is practiced are (still) women.

And I'm sure the practice of stoning adulterers did and does indeed lower the divorce rate.

But imo, and just as I believe is the case with failing Christian marriages, the rate of divorce is simply not the issue.

And neither are free women.

I believe GOD legislating adultery as an offense punishable by death, especially such a cruel, bloody, painful one, was intended to cause HIS people to take committing adultery VERY seriously.

And Christians should know and always remember that Jesus did not come to change one bit of GOD's Law, but to fulfill it.

So, personally, the severe punishment GOD assigned to adulterers inclines me to believe that GOD hates adultery...A LOT.

Certainly far more than divorce.
Which, in truth, GOD doesn't hate at all.

And HE never said HE did.

So when adultery (as well as any other marital treachery) and divorce among Christians is the topic, I think we (general) really need to shift our focus away from divorce and onto that which is actually sin.

EXCELLENT POST!!!!
what stands out for me is:

1-God did NOT institute a punishment of DEATH for divorce, but for ADULTERY

2-ADULTERY is sin DIVORCE IS NOT.

THANKS SIS KEITA!!!!

[anointedteacher]

I read an article about a week or 2 ago... in some African country, a man was stoned to death for adultry and his mistress is/was schedule to be stoned after she have the baby.. ...

Nikkol... Don't you think the culture should change for women and girls, so they can enjoy life of freedom like you and I...

Keita Good Post...

If a person can live with an adultrer Good, If she/he can't, get a divorce and break the soul tie..

(Edited by keita for thread continuity. Edited portion moved HERE)

[Poetricia (G.A.P.)]

nikkol, i'm wondering what your thoughts are on a "multiple" adulterer, for example in the tiger woods situation with the 3rd woman now coming forth and him now admitting to "transgressions" "personal sins" and "family problems"

are you saying that even in that, the wife would be wrong to divorce? that in all that deception she should just roll over (literally) and continue on in the marriage


i'm curious to hear your response.....


[put yourself in her shoes and tell me you wouldn't be like "you betta step brotha!!" :-) just trying to bring some humor to a very controversial subject]

[kitty]

Dec 3, 2009 10:56:49 GMT -5 kitty said:

Hey Guys,
Let me make a bold statement. I personally believe there are many reasons cases in which people many need to get a divorce... These go far beyond good ole adultry.

Sis kitty, while that statement may certainly be true, we are discussing (a case of) marital adultery on this thread.

So I have edited your post for thread continuity.

And I have reposted the off-topic portion of your post HERE.

keita


Hey Guys,

First of all... I think this is a good discussion... And with that...


Nikkol... You statd that you thought it was bold of me to state that the man in question from the orignal post wasn't huband material. Why? I think it is obvious that he isn't. I don't think that any man or woman who find it to be a struggle to honor their marriages by sleeping around are simply not marriage material...

Nikkol... I applaud you for having a good marriage and also for wanting Christians to have better marriages... But it sounds as if your answer t this is for people to stay in bad situations no matter what happens. That's not going to change the fact that these people have bad if not awful and dangerous marriages...

So aside from sticking around... No matter what... what other advice do you think you could give to some like the wife in the original post since you seem to be placing her as an example... Her husband is a repeat offender she want to have a good marriage... She decided to stick around and she coming to you for advice... what do you tell erh to do next?

Kitty