|
|
Post by Nikkol on Dec 3, 2009 17:46:00 GMT -5
Nikkol... Don't you think the culture should change for women and girls, so they can enjoy life of freedom like you and I... Short answer, No. The way one defines "freedom" varies. In our "culture", God FORBID we are told who we have to marry by our parents....but does the fact that someone else is told by their parents have to mean that they are in bondage? Yet, many feel that way based on how they were taught. Yet, to me it says something even if just from the fact that the PARENTS are picking the spouse esp since in the US, I believe that the number of children being brought up in a single parent home is greater than a two parent household. Defining "freedom", at least with many things regarding women can be seen as relative. Does the fact that the women are to stay home and take care of the home and kids while the men go to work have to mean that the women are in bondage? No....and truth be told, I think that we'd possibly have less issues if women, as we're told in the scripture were moreso the keepers of the home and took care of the kids while the men went to work....I think that some stress that goes on with women and men is possibly based on both taking on roles that they weren't created for.... <<going to the side before the stones start being thrown.....>> |
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Dec 3, 2009 17:49:37 GMT -5
nikkol, i'm wondering what your thoughts are on a "multiple" adulterer, for example in the tiger woods situation with the 3rd woman now coming forth and him now admitting to "transgressions" "personal sins" and "family problems" are you saying that even in that, the wife would be wrong to divorce? that in all that deception she should just roll over (literally) and continue on in the marriage  i'm curious to hear your response..... [put yourself in her shoes and tell me you wouldn't be like "you betta step brotha!!" :-) just trying to bring some humor to a very controversial subject] Humor is ALWAYS good. |
|
|
|
Post by krazeeboi on Dec 3, 2009 18:54:32 GMT -5
[put yourself in her shoes and tell me you wouldn't be like "you betta step brotha!!" :-) just trying to bring some humor to a very controversial subject] Well no, you couldn't say "Step, brotha!" because Tiger ain't Black; he's "Clabanasian" or some mess like that. He's getting ready to see just how "Black" the rest of the world sees him.  |
|
|
|
Post by keita on Dec 4, 2009 2:57:58 GMT -5
Nikkol... Don't you think the culture should change for women and girls, so they can enjoy life of freedom like you and I...
Defining "freedom", at least with many things regarding women can be seen as relative. Does the fact that the women are to stay home and take care of the home and kids while the men go to work have to mean that the women are in bondage? No....and truth be told, I think that we'd possibly have less issues if women, as we're told in the scripture were moreso the keepers of the home and took care of the kids while the men went to work....I think that some stress that goes on with women and men is possibly based on both taking on roles that they weren't created for....
<<going to the side before the stones start being thrown.....>>Well, if Jesus hadn't already "disarmed" me, I might throw a pebble or two at you for the hijack potential of that post, LOLOL! And if anybody even looks like tryna turn this discussion into a debate of arranged marriage, or (LAWD HAVE MERCY!!!) the scriptural role of women, (both of which btw, imo, are topics worthy of their own threads and discussions) I may just have to repent for doing it anyway, LOL! (Or maybe not, depending on what we discover on that thread of bro kb's, LOLOL!) But seriously, and speaking of "stones being thrown", I edited sis at's post earlier today so that her question would be specifically regarding the stoning of adulterers, as a cultural practice in various parts of the world, with victims who are still predominantly women. And if that wasn't clear, I do apologize. Now, I don't know if that explanation or your consideration of the context will change your answer to sis at's question in any way. But I think both of us were/are looking forward to your response from that particular perspective. |
|
|
|
Post by keita on Dec 4, 2009 3:31:37 GMT -5
It sure is! And this: [put yourself in her shoes and tell me you wouldn't be like "you betta step brotha!!" :-) Well no, you couldn't say "Step, brotha!" because Tiger ain't Black; he's "Clabanasian" or some mess like that. had me ROFLOL!!! ;D ;D ;D And Mrs. Tiger just might have let that golf club do the talking. But I do agree that, and have compassion for him, because He's getting ready to see just how "Black" the rest of the world sees him. In fact, one might even say Tiger Woods is already being publicly "stoned" by the media for his (alleged) adultery.  Talk about hypocritical.  Still, to me, just as it is with Dawn Stensland and her husband, it will be interesting to see what choice(s) this public couple makes in response to the (alleged) infidelity in their marriage. |
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Dec 7, 2009 9:02:30 GMT -5
In talking with many couples, and just looking at ppl in general, we can make mistakes and sometimes, when we get "grabbed" by something, it's harder to get out...it's like quick sand. I've learned that all marriages have struggles. And with that same notion, I guess we could say that we're obviously not marriage material for Jesus since we do find it a struggle sometimes to honor him and sleep with the enemy.....right?
Keep standing and keep your husband in prayer. Truth be told, had it not been for the grace of God, ANYONE could be dealing with the SAME thing. Of course we can also define "What makes a good marriage". But I don't know if she needs advice...she said that she wants to stay and work it out. The only thing that i can do is keep her in prayer
Of course some may say that it's easy to say because I haven't been in that situation....honestly, it still doesn't make it easy. If i was in this situation, would I want to "get out"? Probably because my human nature side would say that you can't deal with this. But in asking WWJD, and seeing how many times I've slept around on Him, (sometimes hours after I just gave him a crazy praise) and if I believe that He doesn't put more on me than I can bear, would I be doing a disservice and disjustice by leaving? I think I would.
In Conclusion, I personally don't know what differentiates divorce from separation and see the main difference being that if you get a divorce you can remarry. Are there other differences? Or why would one want to divorce instead of separate?
|
|
|
|
Post by kitty on Dec 7, 2009 18:31:52 GMT -5
Hey Nikkol,
There are several reasons for getting a divorce and not simply separating...
For example... If you stay married to someone you can be held responsible for the debt that they may rack up... This happened to a good friend of mine... She was married for about 4-5 years before her husband cheated on her with another woman. He ended up getting this other woman pregnant roughly the same time that she herself was pregnant.
She opted for a divorce... Her exhusband racked up quite a bit of debt... But then he ended up filing for bankruptcy. However, my friend got caught holding the bag so SHE>>> ended up having to pay for the debt he racked up even though they weren't together but because their divorce wasn't final at that time!!! And He got off scott free! No he has never offered to repay her!
Secondly... Pensions... if you stay married to a person this entitles them to collect your pension or any of your worldly goods if you die. This person may not have lifted a hand to help you get these things be it a house, a car whatever... And it may be that you wanted to leave some a thing to a friend or another relative... But if you aren't divorced you spouse can get it and even if you left a will they can contest it....
One of my cousin just recently got divorced after being separted for 2 years... Her husband also cheated on her... In fact he has a new girlfriend that he plans to marry. Yet before the divorce was final and while they were separated he did very little to help support the children that he and my cousin created together...
He stopped being a provider really a good 2 years before my cousin got a separation. He got a little bit lazy and they had several other issues not just the act of adultry. But now that she is divorced there is a child custody agreement and child support and went into effect with the divorce... My cousin is now dating a nice man and they do intend to get married at some point.
And lastly... If a person is dangerous... If you are still married to them but simply separated, they have all kinds of links to you that allow them to be able to trace your location.
So I hope these examples answer your question about why it may be better to divorce period than to simply get a separation...
Kitty
|
|
|
|
Post by kitty on Dec 7, 2009 18:38:38 GMT -5
Nikkol,
Let me ask you a question... I know that you don't believe in remarriage. However, what if the person you were married to not only got a divorce but got remarried... What would be the point in staying single? God in fact states that it would be an abomination to go back to the original spouse...
What are your thought?
Kitty
|
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Dec 7, 2009 18:48:02 GMT -5
Ill be honest here. 90% of the times I see these kinds of topics the one factor that pops up all the times is fear.
Sure there are extreme cases. And there are cases where people should get divorced.
The fact doesnt change that it is absolutely a shame before God to see so many Christians, leaders included divorcing and remarrying again and again and again.
There is the option of forgiveness but the reality is that most people simply will not go for that option.
Personally sometimes Im like.. some of ya'll ( not necessarily directing this to ANYONE here ) should jist stay single if you are going to full of that fear, always worrying, never trusting GOD and ready to jump ship going into the marriage looking at the front door.
If you still bleeding from all that past hurt and the hurt you have seen upon others you need to be healed first before you become a part of anyone's life.
And thats another problem.. lotta broke folks hooking up with other broke folk thinking that marriage will heal them...
|
|
|
|
Post by kitty on Dec 7, 2009 22:05:52 GMT -5
Hey Giants,
I don't think that so many people are operating out of fear... Nor do I think that people are getting divorced because they can't forgive.... But that they don't want to have to be forced to be in a situation in which they realize that the person they have married can't change... Or won't change.
Like I stated a few posts back... I woud like to see the divorce level decrease in the church.
But I think the way that occurs starts before people get married... With premarital counseling and using God given wisdom about who to marry....
Like I stated before.... I don't think sticking out bad situations at all cost is the way to have better marriages... people don't respect those who never have any boundaries...
Kitty
|
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Dec 8, 2009 8:37:52 GMT -5
Hey Giants, I don't think that so many people are operating out of fear... Nor do I think that people are getting divorced because they can't forgive.... But that they don't want to have to be forced to be in a situation in which they realize that the person they have married can't change... Or won't change. Like I stated a few posts back... I woud like to see the divorce level decrease in the church. But I think the way that occurs starts before people get married... With premarital counseling and using God given wisdom about who to marry.... Like I stated before.... I don't think sticking out bad situations at all cost is the way to have better marriages... people don't respect those who never have any boundaries... Kitty Well I have to disgaree about the fear part because I have spoken with way to many people and there different levels of fear for different people but fear is still a motivating factor. And many people are getting divorced because they wont forgive. Many people are getting divorced from selfishness. Many people are getting divorced because they dont trust GOD to fix it. Many people are getting divorced because of their uncontrollable lust. And some are getting divorced because its the best thing due to abuse, adultery, addiction or abandonment. However what I see very little discussed is how to stay together. What I see discussed FAR more is the legality of divorce and remarriage. I see people leave GOD out the marriage process constanly, from allowing GOD to choose the mate ( which many people just dont believe in ) to not having a proper vision from GOD for their lives before marriage, to people not having a vision from GOD for the marriage itself and so on and so on. This is why most marriages fail. Lack of vision and purpose. |
|
|
|
Post by Nikkol on Dec 8, 2009 9:35:53 GMT -5
I was just reading about an option called "legal separation" where for a period of time that you both decide on, you can separate all assets/liabilities/custody/etc. and not have to worry about getting "stuck with the bill". And of course that would leave an option for possible reconciliation.... (and vice versa) Nikkol, Let me ask you a question... I know that you don't believe in remarriage. However, what if the person you were married to not only got a divorce but got remarried... What would be the point in staying single? God in fact states that it would be an abomination to go back to the original spouse... What are your thought? Kitty Staying single would be until the spouse dies, not based on if the other spouse remarries.... I would never teach that just because one person does something means that the other person can follow suit. My viewpoint (ON REMARRIAGE) is only if the spouse dies. one of the reasons why I look at this issue this way: Matthew 19:5 And said , For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder . Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. If the two become one, I don't know how they can become two again.... I don't know if I can recall reading by which they become "two" again. Regarding abomination, lets look at the list of abominations in OT: One person's response to abomination listing: Looked up online (someone's answer): So in looking at those responses, if we take it solely based on what was/is an abomination, there are many other things listed and some of those are things that we do...yet we don't tend to hear ppl say that if they eat crabs or pigs, that's an abomination....at least not for most ppl.... |
|
|
|
Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Dec 8, 2009 12:34:45 GMT -5
However what I see very little discussed is how to stay together. What I see discussed FAR more is the legality of divorce and remarriage. I agree with this. Perhaps we should start a separate thread on that topic, how marriages can stay together. |
|
|
|
Post by giantsdodie on Dec 8, 2009 14:10:40 GMT -5
i ould like to point out for the record I dont believe in all these divorces and remarriages. As I understand the scripture there is allowance for remarriage to the original spouse, a new marriage if the original spouse dies, or marriage to a new spouse if you have an unbelieving spouse who divorces the believer.
|
|
|
|
Post by keita on Dec 8, 2009 17:07:54 GMT -5
Interestingly, the vast majority of people killed in countries where stoning adulterers is practiced are (still) women. And I'm sure the practice of stoning adulterers did and does indeed lower the divorce rate. But imo, and just as I believe is the case with failing Christian marriages, the rate of divorce is simply not the issue. And neither are free women. I believe GOD legislating adultery as an offense punishable by death, especially such a cruel, bloody, painful one, was intended to cause HIS people to take committing adultery VERY seriously. And Christians should know and always remember that Jesus did not come to change one bit of GOD's Law, but to fulfill it. So, personally, the severe punishment GOD assigned to adulterers inclines me to believe that GOD hates adultery...A LOT. Certainly far more than divorce. Which, in truth, GOD doesn't hate at all. And HE never said HE did. So when adultery (as well as any other marital treachery) and divorce among Christians is the topic, I think we (general) really need to shift our focus away from divorce and onto that which is actually sin. EXCELLENT POST!!!! what stands out for me is: 1-God did NOT institute a punishment of DEATH for divorce, but for ADULTERY 2-ADULTERY is sin DIVORCE IS NOT. THANKS SIS KEITA!!!! Thank you[/i], sis gap!!! And coming from a sister Berean, as much as I appreciate the agreement, I appreciate the confirmation even more. Because, imho, understanding those kinds of distinctions is critical to any scripturally sound discussion of, conclusions about, and counsel offered regarding adultery and divorce. It's actually stunning to me how much GOD hates the sin of adultery, of any kind, among HIS people. Especially in light of the truth that GOD does not hate divorce at all, coupled with the understanding that divorce never was, and is not now, a sin. (Btw, GOD's abhorrence of adultery actually has a lot to do with the "mixing of seed". And, as many of us know, GOD is really particular about how HIS people handle seed.) In fact, because of GOD's clear hatred for and response to adultery, frankly, I think it is quite possible that GOD may not have the same issues that many of us do with those who divorce a spouse because of marital adultery.. And for the same reason, it is not at all surprising to me that marital adultery is a leading cause of marital breakups among Chritstians. But even in those cases, and just as when addressing the topic of this thread, I think we need to be clear that divorce is not the issue or the problem. The sin of adultery is. Because divorce does not put marriages asunder, but sin (in whatever form of marital treachery it may take) certainly can, may, and very often does. Sin is ALWAYS the problem, not divorce. So, and again, when it comes to marital adultery, I believe we need to be sure we are actually hating what GOD hates and are actually focused on and addressing the same. Because I believe that in the case of marital adultery, GOD's hatred of the sin of adultery is clearly evidenced by both HIS WORD and the scriptures. And I believe that in the case of marital adultery, GOD's focus on the sin of adultery remains the same, and therefore ought to define our focus also, no matter whether a couple chooses to continue or end their marriage. Especially since in the case of marital adultery, I find both of those responses to be scripturally legitimate, as well as, and again, scripturally speaking, solely the decision of that married couple. So, imo, this thread offers us a unique, and a far more rarely taken, opportunity to address the sin of adultery and the question of how Chriistians are to rightly deal with that sin when it occurs in a marriage relationship.And the importance of our doing so is exactly why I continue to actively moderate this thread to that end. Now, with that said, and putting on my moderator's hat.... I'm once again reminding everyone that this thread is not, and never was, about separation, divorce, or remarriage. And for anyone who didn't know, we have revived another thread for discussing those issues HERE (and might actually get a few new ones started from there as the discussion continues ) But marital adultery was and is the specific topic on this thread and it is my intention to maintain that focus. So if anyone notices that I have edited and/or moved your post, that is the reason why. |
|
