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Post by Beck on Aug 21, 2006 12:27:51 GMT -5
This is why I have a problem with religion.  www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/21/menonly.sundayschool.ap/index.htmlWATERTOWN, New York (AP) -- The minister of a church that dismissed a female Sunday School teacher after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible says a woman can perform any job -- outside of the church. The First Baptist Church dismissed Mary Lambert on August 9 with a letter explaining that the church had adopted an interpretation that prohibits women from teaching men. She had taught there for 54 years. The letter quoted the first epistle to Timothy: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." The Rev. Timothy LaBouf, who also serves on the Watertown City Council, issued a statement saying his stance against women teaching men in Sunday school would not affect his decisions as a city leader in Watertown, where all five members of the council are men but the city manager who runs the city's day-to-day operations is a woman. "I believe that a woman can perform any job and fulfill any responsibility that she desires to" outside of the church, LaBouf wrote Saturday. Mayor Jeffrey Graham, however, was bothered by the reasons given Lambert's dismissal. "If what's said in that letter reflects the councilman's views, those are disturbing remarks in this day and age," Graham said. "Maybe they wouldn't have been disturbing 500 years ago, but they are now." Lambert has publicly criticized the decision, but the church did not publicly address the matter until Saturday, a day after its board met. In a statement, the board said other issues were behind Lambert's dismissal, but it did not say what they were. |
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 21, 2006 15:01:54 GMT -5
Not taking either side.... but I can understand why they may feel that way. This could be a start for a women's SS class and a men's SS class. I've actually seen this done at one other church in particular and it seems to work pretty well.
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Aug 21, 2006 15:08:41 GMT -5
sigh
Is this how God would have wanted this handled?
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Post by Beck on Aug 21, 2006 15:22:59 GMT -5
sigh Is this how God would have wanted this handled? exactly... like I said.. this is why religion bothers me... BONDAGE!!!!!  |
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Post by Jasmine on Aug 21, 2006 15:24:14 GMT -5
Of course not, man handles things, man way. However I agree with Nikkol. Separate the men and womens class from each other. Not necessary because women should not teach or have authority over a man,but simply because stupid situations like this can arise.
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Post by Beck on Aug 21, 2006 15:24:58 GMT -5
Not taking either side.... but I can understand why they may feel that way. This could be a start for a women's SS class and a men's SS class. I've actually seen this done at one other church in particular and it seems to work pretty well. My goodness...a womans sunday school class and a mens sunday school class seems to be a bit much... I can see womens meetings and mens meetings..but whats next? the women cant pray for the men? the women cant read scripture to the men?... |
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Post by Jasmine on Aug 21, 2006 15:27:04 GMT -5
men and women sunday school classes have already been established in pentecostal churches.
or should I say have LONG been established.
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Post by keita on Aug 21, 2006 15:36:53 GMT -5
Here's my major issue with the brother's decision. Of all the many really good reasons there may be for single/same sex Sunday School classes and teachers, imho, the best interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12, would very possibly make that particular scripture completely irrelevant and inapplicable to the situation. My reasons for saying that were a part of our discussion in this previous/related thread: jbrefugees.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=controversy&action=display&thread=1140560523&page=3where we had begun to examine Paul's words to Timothy in greater depth and using original Greek. Were it possible, I would simply invite and strongly encourage this (and any other) minister/pastor to do the same.  |
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 21, 2006 23:25:11 GMT -5
That's true they have been established a while ago. The church I was actually talking about was a baptist church that is doing the same thing.
I'm still looking up for verification; but I think that the SS classes were gender based before they became "co-ed". Even in looking at the scripture in reference to why women have to be silent...... isn't that based on the women and men sitting on separate sides of the "church"... and this was recorded in the Bible.
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Post by krazeeboi on Aug 22, 2006 1:19:17 GMT -5
Of course not, man handles things, man way. However I agree with Nikkol. Separate the men and womens class from each other. Not necessary because women should not teach or have authority over a man,but simply because stupid situations like this can arise. I agree. At my home church, only the elders or deacons (all males) teach the adult Sunday School class. Many churches have Sunday School classes and cell groups broken up according to age, sex, marital status, etc. I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I agree with the pastor. |
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 22, 2006 6:57:18 GMT -5
KRAZEE: You're not alone.
The question we (general) need to ask ourselves is this:
Is taking the scriptural literally wrong? These are some things that we know that scripture says about women:
1. Women shouldn't teach men
2. Women shouldn't usurp authority over men
3. Women should teach the younger women
I believe that it would be difficult to teach that women should teach men and show this scripturally.
Side Note: Why is it seen as such a big deal that this teacher was dismissed based on the scripture that says that women should teach men? IS women teaching men that important? Why?
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Post by Jasmine on Aug 22, 2006 14:07:39 GMT -5
Is women teaching men that important..Good question Nikkol.
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Post by keita on Aug 22, 2006 14:08:23 GMT -5
Again, based upon the information reported and from this vantage point, I actually have only one issue with the pastor's decision. I simply question his (or anyone else's) use of 1 Timothy 2:12 as the scriptural basis for making and implementing that decision. And that is spoken as a woman of God who preaches and teaches... whoever God sends to me or sends me to. KRAZEE: You're not alone. LOL!!! That's for sure! I think that's an excellent question but I think there is one that must precede it. That is, "Do we know and understand, with certainty, what the scripture is saying?" There is very strong exegetical evidence that 1 Timothy 2:12 is an instance where it is quite likely that perhaps we really don't. I find that a matter of serious concern because this scripture is one that is primarily and so frequently used to determine and set the ministry parameters of 66% of His ministers, aka women. Well... I would agree with you that #3 is absolutely scriptural fact and truth. As a matter of fact, I don't necessarily or completely disagree with #1 and #2, and can even appreciate the (situational and universal, respectively) wisdom of them both. But I must say that upon closer and deeper examination, I have found that the most common scriptural bases for drawing those two conclusions are simply not as sound as we need it to be when establishing church doctrine or practice. I agree. But that is because, imho, the issue at hand is actually framed a bit differently. In other words, I am not at all concerned with proving that women should teach men. I am concerned with examining the scripturality of the doctrines and practices which conclude that they should not. (And, btw, although I disagree with his conclusion  , I also have come to love and appreciate the importance and wisdom of bro kb's oft made distinction between "can she" and "should she" regarding this matter.) You meant "shouldn't", right? If so, for me, it's a BIG DEAL simply because there is so much sound exegetical evidence that 1 Timothy 2:12 is not, in fact, speaking to that matter or even saying such a thing at all...at least not in the way it is most commonly applied. Teaching is my gift and call and I have a deep passion for women's ministry. But first and foremost I am God's woman which means I am available for Him to use in whatever way He pleases. So while I don't see "women teaching men" as particularly "important", I believe there is actually something much larger at stake. That is my belief that it is absolutely essential to the well-being of the Body of Christ that God's women walk in the liberty of sonship to do whatever God calls, gifts and anoints them to do, however, whenever, and wherever He says so. I celebrate and am encouraged that there have always been those who will do so and I pray for those who presently and those who will someday do so. The devil is a liar because it's not even about this male vs female madness he has spawned nor the residual fear and animosity between males and females that we've been stuck in since the fall. But Jesus... In another garden... with another woman... Because I believe there is so much that God wants to say to and do for the Body of Christ that He will only speak through her mouth and do through her femaleness. It is her femaleness which represents God's attribute of power, just as the man's maleness represents God's attribute of authority. And let me be clear. True power always submits to true authority. And true authority will never oppose but will always welcome true power and even seek it out. When power and authority come together as one, God's people win! (That's exactly why, despite the almost unversal despising of him, imho, Barak was one of the wisest men in the bible.) If I were the enemy, and God said to me what He said to him in Genesis about that woman and her seed, I'd be forever about the business of shutting her down at every opportunity. Short of that, I might even settle for severely crippling and limiting her because that will effectively damage and hinder the Body. Therefore, even with our very best and holiest intentions or, even worse, despite what may very well be be pride, traditions, sloppy exegetics and the resulting lack of knowledge, I am most concerned that we, as God's people, be very[/b] sure that we are not (mis)using the scriptures to assist in the enemy's "in the beginning" assignment against God's women. |
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Post by Jasmine on Aug 22, 2006 14:22:16 GMT -5
We can preach and teach Christ. Theres no doubt about that.
In all of my days of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. God has not once sent a man to witness to my way. And if I can acurately recall an history of events, if he had sent one my husband was always present.
That says alot to me.
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Post by livinganewlife on Aug 22, 2006 14:50:27 GMT -5
Because I believe there is so much that God wants to say to and do for the Body of Christ that He will only speak through her mouth and do through her femaleness. It is her femaleness which represents God's attribute of power, just as the man's maleness represents God's attribute of authority. And let me be clear. True power always submits to true authority. And true authority will never oppose but will always welcome true power and even seek it out. When power and authority come together as one, God's people win! If I were the enemy, and God said to me what He said to him in Genesis about that woman and her seed, I'd be forever about the business of shutting her down at every opportunity. Short of that, I might even settle for severely crippling and limiting her because that will effectively damage and hinder the Body.
How many battles have we lost due to the fact that a woman couldn't come forth. Of course God ALWAYS has a way out and he will get his word to whomever, whenever and however He pleases.
As a women in ministry, I am focused on Women's ministry because that the season in which I am in NOW..
However, many women are focused on Women's ministry because many know that that is ALL they can do....
God will not conduct himself out of order and neither will he allow His vessels to conduct themselves out of order.
Sidebar {Jas your statement made me think of something}: As a women in ministry with a Prophetic Gift is it considered out of order to "prophecy" to a man Thus said the Lord? |
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, I also have come to love and appreciate the importance and wisdom of bro kb's oft made distinction between "can she" and "should she" regarding this matter.)