Bishop Arthur Brazier withdraws from PAW

[krazeeboi]

rachel2 said:

Believing in holiness and living a holy life are two different things. I know some backsliders who believe in holiness, but they are not living holy lives. That's why they're called backsliders.

I'd argue that one who says he believes in holiness and doesn't practice it truly doesn't believe it. But if we wish to be technical about it, those who espouse eternal security do indeed believe in living holy lives.

[Beck]

krazeeboi said:

rachel2 said:

Believing in holiness and living a holy life are two different things. I know some backsliders who believe in holiness, but they are not living holy lives. That's why they're called backsliders.

I'd argue that one who says he believes in holiness and doesn't practice it truly doesn't believe it. But if we wish to be technical about it, those who espouse eternal security do indeed believe in living holy lives.

Victory Bro! Isn't that just the point? Holiness=Lifestyle according to Gods word?

We can spend hours and hours debating what is simply useless... the bottom line is holiness without..no man shall see the Lord. I don't teach OSAS, because there are some who lacks the desire to life a Godly lifestyle... and the truth of the matter is that we should all BE READY, cause we don't know the day nor the hour in which Christ will return. I don't know about anyone else, but when I read in Romans..."shall we continue in sin, so that grace may abound, God forbid".. It challenges me not to want to live my life on the curve. I also believe like Paul put it... Not that I have apprehended that which apprehends me, but I press toward the mark... The Christian lifestyle is to be lived victorious and without the semblance of the old nature. I'm my opinion we cant even afford to teach doctrines that will instantaneously make the slothful Christian lazy concerning Standards... this is how (in my opinion) we allow false teaching and spirits to rule over our church gatherings... We teach and preach Holiness or Hell... Old school pentecostal churches teach... I'm saved, and YET still being saved... because they believe that salvation is a continual process until he cracks the sky or until he calls us home.

[krazeeboi]

elderbeck said:

We can spend hours and hours debating what is simply useless... the bottom line is holiness without..no man shall see the Lord. I don't teach OSAS, because there are some who lacks the desire to life a Godly lifestyle... and the truth of the matter is that we should all BE READY, cause we don't know the day nor the hour in which Christ will return. I don't know about anyone else, but when I read in Romans..."shall we continue in sin, so that grace may abound, God forbid".. It challenges me not to want to live my life on the curve. I also believe like Paul put it... Not that I have apprehended that which apprehends me, but I press toward the mark... The Christian lifestyle is to be lived victorious and without the semblance of the old nature. I'm my opinion we cant even afford to teach doctrines that will instantaneously make the slothful Christian lazy concerning Standards... this is how (in my opinion) we allow false teaching and spirits to rule over our church gatherings... We teach and preach Holiness or Hell... Old school pentecostal churches teach... I'm saved, and YET still being saved... because they believe that salvation is a continual process until he cracks the sky or until he calls us home.

You're saying "we cant even afford to teach doctrines that will instantaneously make the slothful Christian lazy concerning Standards," and to that, I say three things:

1) The slothful Christian may not even be a Christian at all;

2) Truth is truth, and we are required to teach it, no matter how we may personally feel about it. I'm sure if we taught that backsliders couldn't ever be restored (as they did teach back in the day based upon a misinterpretation of Heb. 6:4-6), that would make folks "stay in line" even more;

3) We also cannot teach doctrines that appeal to the legalistic side of the flesh, which, IMO, has even more influence than the slothful side.

It's too bad that so many in the Pentecostal Holiness tradition in particular will suffer loss because of the third point, when they really thought they were securing their salvation. We have truly gotten to the point where we rely on our own works to save us, even though we say we aren't. We're so sin-conscious until we're not even able to walk in the imputed righteousness of Christ given us by the Father. We have no idea what it means to cease from our own labor and rest in the finished work of Christ. That puts us in just as much trouble as the one who promotes licentousness, but we can't see beyond our self-righteous spectacles and realize that.

[Rachel2]

elderbeck said:

krazeeboi said:

I'd argue that one who says he believes in holiness and doesn't practice it truly doesn't believe it. But if we wish to be technical about it, those who espouse eternal security do indeed believe in living holy lives.

Victory Bro! Isn't that just the point? Holiness=Lifestyle according to Gods word?

We can spend hours and hours debating what is simply useless... the bottom line is holiness without..no man shall see the Lord. I don't teach OSAS, because there are some who lacks the desire to life a Godly lifestyle... and the truth of the matter is that we should all BE READY, cause we don't know the day nor the hour in which Christ will return. I don't know about anyone else, but when I read in Romans..."shall we continue in sin, so that grace may abound, God forbid".. It challenges me not to want to live my life on the curve. I also believe like Paul put it... Not that I have apprehended that which apprehends me, but I press toward the mark... The Christian lifestyle is to be lived victorious and without the semblance of the old nature. I'm my opinion we cant even afford to teach doctrines that will instantaneously make the slothful Christian lazy concerning Standards... this is how (in my opinion) we allow false teaching and spirits to rule over our church gatherings... We teach and preach Holiness or Hell... Old school pentecostal churches teach... I'm saved, and YET still being saved... because they believe that salvation is a continual process until he cracks the sky or until he calls us home.

Amen Beck,

The bible is quite clear about living a holy life. If eternal security means you automatically go to heaven,why bother to live holy at all. Just get filled with the Holy Ghost and keep doing what you're doing.

Saying that someone may not be a Christian because they are sloughtful sounds like passing judgement to me.

[chosen]

yeahhhhh I agree Rachel, but there has been wayyyyyyy to much comprimising in the church.

[Beck]

krazeeboi said:

elderbeck said:

We can spend hours and hours debating what is simply useless... the bottom line is holiness without..no man shall see the Lord. I don't teach OSAS, because there are some who lacks the desire to life a Godly lifestyle... and the truth of the matter is that we should all BE READY, cause we don't know the day nor the hour in which Christ will return. I don't know about anyone else, but when I read in Romans..."shall we continue in sin, so that grace may abound, God forbid".. It challenges me not to want to live my life on the curve. I also believe like Paul put it... Not that I have apprehended that which apprehends me, but I press toward the mark... The Christian lifestyle is to be lived victorious and without the semblance of the old nature. I'm my opinion we cant even afford to teach doctrines that will instantaneously make the slothful Christian lazy concerning Standards... this is how (in my opinion) we allow false teaching and spirits to rule over our church gatherings... We teach and preach Holiness or Hell... Old school pentecostal churches teach... I'm saved, and YET still being saved... because they believe that salvation is a continual process until he cracks the sky or until he calls us home.

You're saying "we cant even afford to teach doctrines that will instantaneously make the slothful Christian lazy concerning Standards," and to that, I say three things:

1) The slothful Christian may not even be a Christian at all;

2) Truth is truth, and we are required to teach it, no matter how we may personally feel about it. I'm sure if we taught that backsliders couldn't ever be restored (as they did teach back in the day based upon a misinterpretation of Heb. 6:4-6), that would make folks "stay in line" even more;

3) We also cannot teach doctrines that appeal to the legalistic side of the flesh, which, IMO, has even more influence than the slothful side.

It's too bad that so many in the Pentecostal Holiness tradition in particular will suffer loss because of the third point, when they really thought they were securing their salvation. We have truly gotten to the point where we rely on our own works to save us, even though we say we aren't. We're so sin-conscious until we're not even able to walk in the imputed righteousness of Christ given us by the Father. We have no idea what it means to cease from our own labor and rest in the finished work of Christ. That puts us in just as much trouble as the one who promotes licentousness, but we can't see beyond our self-righteous spectacles and realize that.

Victory Bro!

Couple of things... So you say that a slothful Christian may not be a Christian at all? What would disqualify him from being a Christian? Are you saying that some legalistic outward work would make him a Christian? Also, just because a person struggles with something doesn't mean that they are not Christian, so does that mean that you are disqualified because of your weakness? Or do you stand on the scripture that says "his strength is made perfect in our weakness"? Regardless of it... speculation brings enmity between what God says and what man says.

I agree with teaching the truth no matter how we feel about it, because personal views shouldn't matter much when God's word is already laid the foundation on the who,what, when,where, and hows of Christian standards.

I also agree about teaching legalistic side of the flesh... after all, its by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.(eph 2:8-9). We would be careless to exclude the simple fact that the bible declares for us to #1 Let our light shine, #2 be ye also ready, #3 lay aside the weight and the sin, #4 press to wards the mark. Basically what I am saying is that because of this act of Kindness by God it should produce a outward work (lifestyle) and we are commissioned by God to keep presenting our Bodies a living sacrifice... I'm not sure if you are saying that because we practice holiness it falls under the legalistic side of our flesh...

[Rachel2]

chosen said:

yeahhhhh I agree Rachel, but there has been wayyyyyyy to much comprimising in the church.

This is why people are not being delivered. There is too much of the world inside the church. Then we teach and preach this watered down version of the gospel to keep attendance up.

WE don't call sin, sin because someone may get offended. I rarely if ever hear a preacher on TV or off use the words Hell, sin, being baptised, living a holy life or being filled with the Holy Ghost.

If that's not bad enough, we now teach "eternal security". What next... telling the sinner that he can just bypass Jesus and His teachings all together and go straight to heaven?

[livinganewlife]

rachel2 said:

[ What next... telling the sinner that he can just bypass Jesus and His teachings all together and go straight to heaven?

Rachel believe it or not there is a doctrine out there that says people will go to heaven whether they believe or not....and this is based on the scripture John 3:16 (For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son.)

They for got to read the part that says (whosoever believes in Him)

[Beck]

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

[krazeeboi]

rachel2 said:

Amen Beck,

The bible is quite clear about living a holy life. If eternal security means you automatically go to heaven,why bother to live holy at all. Just get filled with the Holy Ghost and keep doing what you're doing.

And that's just it; you don't have a grasp on what eternal security really means. You're just injecting your own thoughts into it without finding out what it truly means.

Saying that someone may not be a Christian because they are sloughtful sounds like passing judgement to me.

And what's wrong with passing judgment? The concept of "You can't judge me" is entirely unbiblical. The Bible says that we should judge righteous judgment, and that we would know Christians by their fruit. Paul also says that since we will one day judge angels, we also have the authority to judge amongst our own down here.

[Beck]

Whats the point of judging anyone if they are going to heaven anyway?

[Rachel2]

elderbeck said:

Whats the point of judging anyone if they are going to heaven anyway?

That's good Beck.....I agree what is the point.

[Rachel2]

krazeeboi said:

rachel2 said:

Amen Beck,

The bible is quite clear about living a holy life. If eternal security means you automatically go to heaven,why bother to live holy at all. Just get filled with the Holy Ghost and keep doing what you're doing.

And that's just it; you don't have a grasp on what eternal security really means. You're just injecting your own thoughts into it without finding out what it truly means.
.

Okay Krazeeboi, by all means enlighten me. What does eternal security really mean? To me living a holy life means just that. I don't know how it could be any more simple. It's either Heaven or Hell...I don't know how that could be more simple......so please enlighten me.

[chosen]

rachel2 said:

krazeeboi said:

And that's just it; you don't have a grasp on what eternal security really means. You're just injecting your own thoughts into it without finding out what it truly means.
.

Okay Krazeeboi, by all means enlighten me. What does eternal security really mean? To me living a holy life means just that. I don't know how it could be any more simple. It's either Heaven or Hell...I don't know how that could be more simple......so please enlighten me.

eternal security means to me" once saved always saved, "IMO once you get saved, baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost that is just the beginning....... I personally don't believe in eternal security cause one can fall away from the Lord and Backslide. God is a mercuful God and the Bible say's the " He is married to the backslidder so One can come back to Him, He always has His arms wide open. God never leaves us its Us that leaves Him! ;D

[Rachel2]

livinganewlife said:

rachel2 said:

[ What next... telling the sinner that he can just bypass Jesus and His teachings all together and go straight to heaven?

Rachel believe it or not there is a doctrine out there that says people will go to heaven whether they believe or not....and this is based on the scripture John 3:16 (For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son.)

They for got to read the part that says (whosoever believes in Him)

This is how all false doctrines get started, they just leave out the part they don't want to deal with.

This is the same principle of prosperity preaching. They tell you to give and God will bless you financially and every other way. But they forget or purposely leave out the part that you have to live right (according to scripture) in order to be blessed. So people keep giving money and keep shackin up with Mr. or Ms. Big or whatever sins they are committing and get nothing in return. And when they ask the preacher why, instead of telling them the truth that they cannot remain in sin and be blessed, they tell them that they must increase their giving.

Talk about deceptive teaching. Paula White's teachings are a perfect example of this kind of deception. She talked about giving first fruits so much and for so long until I just wanted to slap her.