Bishop Arthur Brazier withdraws from PAW

[Rachel2]

chosen said:

rachel2 said:

Okay Krazeeboi, by all means enlighten me. What does eternal security really mean? To me living a holy life means just that. I don't know how it could be any more simple. It's either Heaven or Hell...I don't know how that could be more simple......so please enlighten me.

eternal security means to me" once saved always saved, "IMO once you get saved, baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost that is just the beginning.......

You are right Jessica, this is the beginning. Since some of us have begun to quote Paul, he also says that it is up to every man to work out his own salvation..........if we are automatically going to heaven, what is there to work out? Paul also says we are to press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus.......again, if we are automatically going to heaven, what is there to press toward?

[krazeeboi]

elderbeck said:

Whats the point of judging anyone if they are going to heaven anyway?

Because God's ultimate purpose in saving us is not so that we can go to heaven. It is that we be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus. I have long said that one reason why the Pentecostal church in particular lacks maturity is because for us, everything is a heaven or hell issue. We have practically no concept of spiritual maturity, work and rewards, etc., even though we give lip service to these concepts. We're so busy doing this or not doing that just to hold on to a shred of salvation and it prevents us from maturing and growing in grace. Even in this discussion, holiness is being exhibited as something we do to be (or stay) saved, not something we do because we are saved.

So in short, judgment for the Christian serves the purpose of helping him to examine those areas where he falls short so he may properly mature, grow in grace, and be conformed to the image of Christ.

[Beck]

krazeeboi said:

elderbeck said:

Whats the point of judging anyone if they are going to heaven anyway?

Because God's ultimate purpose in saving us is not so that we can go to heaven. It is that we be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus. I have long said that one reason why the Pentecostal church in particular lacks maturity is because for us, everything is a heaven or hell issue. We have practically no concept of spiritual maturity, work and rewards, etc., even though we give lip service to these concepts. We're so busy doing this or not doing that just to hold on to a shred of salvation and it prevents us from maturing and growing in grace. Even in this discussion, holiness is being exhibited as something we do to be (or stay) saved, not something we do because we are saved.

So in short, judgment for the Christian serves the purpose of helping him to examine those areas where he falls short so he may properly mature, grow in grace, and be conformed to the image of Christ.

I have no idea what churches you have been exposed too, but that hasn't been my experience with pentecostal churches... Yes we express the importance of living a Godly lifestyle and the consequences of living a life of sin, but its NOT to misunderstood as doing it because we want to be saved...but rather because we love the Lord. On the flip side, OSAS as I said before can and has been a crutch for many who embrace its teachings, because it doesn't teach them to grow in grace, rather in most cases..it teaches them to abuse grace..."oh the Lord knows I'm not perfect, he is a loving God, so I don't have to stop right now"...

In obeying Gods commandments about live a righteous lifestyle YOU DO learn about his goodness, and about his grace... the lifestyle that we live teaches us just how blessed we are to have walked the way of the narrow path... It causes you to take a backward glance at just how blessed we are because we are following his commandments...It would be foolish to think that we are still not under spiritual law and we are held accountable for what we do, say, and how we live our lives as a Christian. to me that brings spiritual maturity, because we are holding ourselves to a higher standard of living, not by the worlds standards..but by Gods.

[kanyon]

elderbeck said:

krazeeboi said:

I have no idea what churches you have been exposed too, but that hasn't been my experience with pentecostal churches... Yes we express the importance of living a Godly lifestyle and the consequences of living a life of sin, but its NOT to misunderstood as doing it because we want to be saved...but rather because we love the Lord. On the flip side, OSAS as I said before can and has been a crutch for many who embrace its teachings, because it doesn't teach them to grow in grace, rather in most cases..it teaches them to abuse grace..."oh the Lord knows I'm not perfect, he is a loving God, so I don't have to stop right now"...

Sorry for interupting here, but is this a conditioned or first hand learned response?

I find that peoples first response on both sides of the osas issues is conditioned and not learned.

Cheers

[And Such Were Some Of You]

Krazeeboi,

Help me out here. I will be honest and say that normally when the "Eternal Security" and "OSAS" issues arise, I normally stay away from them because they seem to divide the saints. Many people get downright nasty when you go against their belief in this area.

Having said that, please be patient with me bro; I have not done all of the studying/reading that I could have in this area so I may need you to spoon feed some of this to me. Let me break down how I view this issue(s):

When I hear OSAS, I think 2 things:

• that no matter what someone does, they have a go directly to heaven ticket, regardless of whether they repent or not. I do not hold to this belief.
• that the believer because of the relationship that they have with Jesus Christ, they will not do anything to jeopardize this; however if they do sin they understand the grace of our Lord and will turn to Him in repentance knowing that he is "saved by faith through grace" and it is due to that fact that he will "always be saved". Not because of a lifestyle in which he is free to sin, God forbid, but he knows how to continue to "get it right" and therefore his relationship with the Father has not been broken. This belief I hold to. This is also what I believe when I hear the terms Eternal Security and Perserverance of the Saints.

It is also my belief that as one matures in his relationship with God, he/she will not continue to be a "slothfull" Christian, but the relationship itself would demand a higher calling. I cannot say that a slothfull Christian really isn't a Christian at all. Nor will I say that one with weaknesses is not a Christian. I was saved but had weaknesses, however, through the daily process of sanctification I no longer have the weakness. I have matured (strengthened) in that area through my submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit. For me Salvation takes place ONCE, however Santification is a process which we submit to which forms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

Am I getting it, Krazee?

[Beck]

admin said:

elderbeck said:

krazeeboi said:

I have no idea what churches you have been exposed too, but that hasn't been my experience with pentecostal churches... Yes we express the importance of living a Godly lifestyle and the consequences of living a life of sin, but its NOT to misunderstood as doing it because we want to be saved...but rather because we love the Lord. On the flip side, OSAS as I said before can and has been a crutch for many who embrace its teachings, because it doesn't teach them to grow in grace, rather in most cases..it teaches them to abuse grace..."oh the Lord knows I'm not perfect, he is a loving God, so I don't have to stop right now"...

Sorry for interupting here, but is this a conditioned or first hand learned response?

I find that peoples first response on both sides of the osas issues is conditioned and not learned.

Cheers

No sir Brother Kanyon... This isnt a hard wired response programed into me...lol. this is what I have heard and seen with my own eyes...even preached over a pulpit from a VERY well known Pastor of a Mega church in Philadelphia. I heard "don't beat yourself up over losing your salvation because you made a mistake, God knows your heart and will not take away his gift of salvation because you have a weakness", I have also heard from members of the church..."I dont have to stop just yet..God knows my heart, and when Im ready he will help me.. Im already saved".... This is what I meant by producing slothful Christians... There is no fear or reverence for the standards of Christ. Now this same folks will put on their big hats, give hundreds of dollars, and shout and dance all over the church, even sing in the choir.... but they are still missing the simple reality of living for Christ DAILY

[And Such Were Some Of You]

I found this website regarding OSAS Doctrine and how it does not line up with the Word of God. I have not read the entire thing but if anyone is interested, here is the link:

Once Saved, Always Saved is WRONG

Again, I believe that some people take OSAS to mean that people can do whatever they want to do, but I don't believe that is the way that it is mean to be.

[Beck]

Question that I think I asked before is this..: Is salvation a process? Are we saved, yet being saved, shall be saved? What does the practice of our scriptural beliefs yield us?

[And Such Were Some Of You]

elderbeck said:

Question that I think I asked before is this..: Is salvation a process? Are we saved, yet being saved, shall be saved? What does the practice of our scriptural beliefs yield us?

I believe that Salvation happens the moment one believes on the Lord, Jesus Christ - that He was born, died for our sins and rose again and now sits on the right hand of the Father. And that His work on the Cross secures our salvation.

However, I believe that Sanctification is a process and will be ongoing until the day of our death.

[krazeeboi]

rachel2 said:

krazeeboi said:

And that's just it; you don't have a grasp on what eternal security really means. You're just injecting your own thoughts into it without finding out what it truly means.
.

Okay Krazeeboi, by all means enlighten me. What does eternal security really mean? To me living a holy life means just that. I don't know how it could be any more simple. It's either Heaven or Hell...I don't know how that could be more simple......so please enlighten me.

In a way, you can't really understand eternal security apart from the doctrine of election, but I'll try to give you the abbreviated version. In short, it teaches that one that has genuinely been saved will never fall away from Christ forever, although they may backslide temporally. Living a holy life is an effect, not a cause, of salvation. Scripture references include John 10:28-29; Romans 8:29-30; Hebrews 7:25, 9:12, 10:14.

Here's what the Scots Confession of 1560, written from a Reformed perspective, says concerning the matter:

XIII. The cause of good works, we confess, is not our free will, but the Spirit of the Lord Jesus, who dwells in our hearts by true faith, brings forth such works as God has prepared for us to walk in. For we most boldly affirm that it is blasphemy to say that Christ abides in the hearts of those in whom is no spirit of sanctification. Therefore we do not hesitate to affirm that murderers, oppressors, cruel persecuters, adulterers, filthy persons, idolaters, drunkards, thieves, and all works of iniquity, have neither true faith nor anything of the Spirit of the Lord Jesus, so long as they obstinately continue in wickedness. For as soon as the Spirit of the Lord Jesus, whom God's chosen children receive by true faith, takes possession of the heart of any man, so soon does he regenerate and renew him, so that he begins to hate what before he loved, and to love what he hated before….But the Spirit of God, who bears witness to our spirit that we are the sons of God, makes us resist filthy pleasures and groan in God's presence for deliverance from this bondage of corruption, and finally to triumph over sin so that it does not reign in our mortal bodies….But the sons of God fight against sin; sob and mourn when they find themselves tempted to do evil; and, if they fall, rise again with earnest and unfeigned repentance. They do these things, not by their own power, but by the power of the Lord Jesus, apart from whom they can do nothing.

An excerpt from the Canons of Dordt (1618-1619):

II. Article 8. For it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of his Son's costly death should work itself out in all his chosen ones, in order that he might grant justifying faith to them only and thereby lead them without fail to salvation….that he should faithfully preserve them to the very end; and that he should finally present them to himself, a glorious people, without spot or wrinkle.

V. Article 3. Because of these remnants of sin dwelling in them and also because of the temptations of the world and Satan, those who have been converted could not remain standing in this grace if left to their own resources. But God is faithful, mercifully strengthening them in the grace once conferred on them and powerfully preserving them in it to the end.

V. Article 8. So it is not by their own merits or strength but by God's undeserved mercy that they neither forfeit faith and grace totally nor remain in their downfalls to the end and are lost. With respect to themselves this not only easily could happen, but also undoutedly would happen; but with respect to God it cannot possibly happen, since his plan cannot be changed, his promise cannot fail, the calling according to his purpose cannot be revoked, the merits of Christ as well as his interceding and preserving cannot be nullified, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit can neither be invalidated nor wiped out.

So in summary, as one author has stated, "This means that if a believer does not persevere, it would not be because of him, in the sense that if the believer is going to depend on his own will and power, his failure is certain anyway. That is, if perseverance depends on the believers, then no one would persevere. Rather, perseverance depends on God's preservation, and the only way that a believer would fail to persevere is if God does not preserve him, and the only way that God would not preserve a chosen one in faith and holiness is if he changes his eternal decree, which is impossible by definition."

[krazeeboi]

elderbeck said:

I have no idea what churches you have been exposed too, but that hasn't been my experience with pentecostal churches... Yes we express the importance of living a Godly lifestyle and the consequences of living a life of sin, but its NOT to misunderstood as doing it because we want to be saved...but rather because we love the Lord.

That is indeed how it is understood in the Pentecostal church. Understand, I'm a church boy, through and through, so I've gotten the firmest grasp on what the majority of Pentecostalism (specifically Black Pentecostalism) believes concerning this subject. I'm confident in saying that all of the "do's" and "don'ts" dished out in Pentecostal churches are by and large not connected to love for the Lord; it's the "fact" that you're going to hell if you don't abide by the rules. As a matter of fact, I'd venture to say that a Pentecostal preacher who preached the "do's and don'ts" largely in connection with a love for God would be viewed as going soft on holiness. In the Pentecostal church, it's impossible to preach holiness without the threat of hell. And I'm talking about preaching to the saints, not to sinners.

On the flip side, OSAS as I said before can and has been a crutch for many who embrace its teachings, because it doesn't teach them to grow in grace, rather in most cases..it teaches them to abuse grace..."oh the Lord knows I'm not perfect, he is a loving God, so I don't have to stop right now"...

Usually I find that most of the people who say things like this really don't even have a genuine relationship with God to begin with and they really don't even know Him in the pardoning of their sins. These are the people who only picked and chose what they wanted to hear. Those who have a firm grasp on the doctrine are not one-sided in its presentation, I can assure you of that.

In obeying Gods commandments about live a righteous lifestyle YOU DO learn about his goodness, and about his grace... the lifestyle that we live teaches us just how blessed we are to have walked the way of the narrow path... It causes you to take a backward glance at just how blessed we are because we are following his commandments...It would be foolish to think that we are still not under spiritual law and we are held accountable for what we do, say, and how we live our lives as a Christian. to me that brings spiritual maturity, because we are holding ourselves to a higher standard of living, not by the worlds standards..but by Gods.

All of this is preached under the banner of legalism. For all of the talk about the Holy Ghost we do in the Pentecostal church, how is it that we barely talk about the fact that regeneration by the Holy Ghost brings about a change in will? Spiritual maturity comes when it is realized that because Christ eternally belongs to me and I to Him, hell is no longer an option for me--which means my uttermost heart's desire is to please the Lord, even when I miss it. But in the Pentecostal church, we're taught that even if we truly have a heart for God, if we're truly saved, if we're truly walking in the light, and we honestly and truly fall into sin and then subsequently die, we're forever lost--because it's "holiness or hell," you know. And never mind the fact that this scenario is unbiblical in a myriad of ways. We're so sin-conscious until it's just a shame. We give sin more power than we do the blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. THAT'S why real maturity is sorely lacking by and large in Pentecostalism.

[krazeeboi]

rachel2 said:

You are right Jessica, this is the beginning. Since some of us have begun to quote Paul, he also says that it is up to every man to work out his own salvation..........if we are automatically going to heaven, what is there to work out? Paul also says we are to press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus.......again, if we are automatically going to heaven, what is there to press toward?

As I said to Beck, the goal of the Christian life is NOT to make it to heaven. That's just another example of how we've been wrongly indoctrinated.

[krazeeboi]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

Krazeeboi,

Help me out here. I will be honest and say that normally when the "Eternal Security" and "OSAS" issues arise, I normally stay away from them because they seem to divide the saints. Many people get downright nasty when you go against their belief in this area.

Having said that, please be patient with me bro; I have not done all of the studying/reading that I could have in this area so I may need you to spoon feed some of this to me. Let me break down how I view this issue(s):

When I hear OSAS, I think 2 things:

• that no matter what someone does, they have a go directly to heaven ticket, regardless of whether they repent or not. I do not hold to this belief.
• that the believer because of the relationship that they have with Jesus Christ, they will not do anything to jeopardize this; however if they do sin they understand the grace of our Lord and will turn to Him in repentance knowing that he is "saved by faith through grace" and it is due to that fact that he will "always be saved". Not because of a lifestyle in which he is free to sin, God forbid, but he knows how to continue to "get it right" and therefore his relationship with the Father has not been broken. This belief I hold to. This is also what I believe when I hear the terms Eternal Security and Perserverance of the Saints.

It is also my belief that as one matures in his relationship with God, he/she will not continue to be a "slothfull" Christian, but the relationship itself would demand a higher calling. I cannot say that a slothfull Christian really isn't a Christian at all. Nor will I say that one with weaknesses is not a Christian. I was saved but had weaknesses, however, through the daily process of sanctification I no longer have the weakness. I have matured (strengthened) in that area through my submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit. For me Salvation takes place ONCE, however Santification is a process which we submit to which forms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

Am I getting it, Krazee?

The second response as to your understanding of the doctrine is right on the money. I also wouldn't say that a slothful Christian isn't a Christian, but it's possible that he might be. The Pentecostal church would say that a Christian with genuine issues, genuinely struggling with one thing or another, really isn't saved. If you smoke, you ain't saved. If you drink alcohol (even in moderation), you ain't saved. If you had a baby out of wedlock, you definitely ain't saved and you need to come to the altar, cry, spit and slob, and be reclaimed. No such thing as a "process." If you're sinning, you're not saved. That's how it goes in the Pentecostal church.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

krazeeboi said:

andsuchweresomeofu said:

Krazeeboi,

Help me out here. I will be honest and say that normally when the "Eternal Security" and "OSAS" issues arise, I normally stay away from them because they seem to divide the saints. Many people get downright nasty when you go against their belief in this area.

Having said that, please be patient with me bro; I have not done all of the studying/reading that I could have in this area so I may need you to spoon feed some of this to me. Let me break down how I view this issue(s):

When I hear OSAS, I think 2 things:

• that no matter what someone does, they have a go directly to heaven ticket, regardless of whether they repent or not. I do not hold to this belief.
• that the believer because of the relationship that they have with Jesus Christ, they will not do anything to jeopardize this; however if they do sin they understand the grace of our Lord and will turn to Him in repentance knowing that he is "saved by faith through grace" and it is due to that fact that he will "always be saved". Not because of a lifestyle in which he is free to sin, God forbid, but he knows how to continue to "get it right" and therefore his relationship with the Father has not been broken. This belief I hold to. This is also what I believe when I hear the terms Eternal Security and Perserverance of the Saints.

It is also my belief that as one matures in his relationship with God, he/she will not continue to be a "slothfull" Christian, but the relationship itself would demand a higher calling. I cannot say that a slothfull Christian really isn't a Christian at all. Nor will I say that one with weaknesses is not a Christian. I was saved but had weaknesses, however, through the daily process of sanctification I no longer have the weakness. I have matured (strengthened) in that area through my submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit. For me Salvation takes place ONCE, however Santification is a process which we submit to which forms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

Am I getting it, Krazee?

The second response as to your understanding of the doctrine is right on the money.

Okay, then why is this so difficult for some to understand? Is it not also what the Word of God says?

I also wouldn't say that a slothful Christian isn't a Christian, but it's possible that he might be. The Pentecostal church would say that a Christian with genuine issues, genuinely struggling with one thing or another, really isn't saved. If you smoke, you ain't saved. If you drink alcohol (even in moderation), you ain't saved. If you had a baby out of wedlock, you definitely ain't saved and you need to come to the altar, cry, spit and slob, and be reclaimed. No such thing as a "process." If you're sinning, you're not saved. That's how it goes in the Pentecostal church.

This is what I was taught when I attended the COGIC church (let's please NOT make this into a COGIC bashing thread because that is NOT my point). If you did the slightest thing wrong or did not follow the list of do's and don'ts, then you were difinately hell-bound. I had to study the grace and love of God on my own accord. Relationship with the Father was not taught, however relationship with Pastor So and So was. However, all of this is a different subject.

I must thank you guys for this thread because it is truly making me hit the WORD!

[krazeeboi]

elderbeck said:

Question that I think I asked before is this..: Is salvation a process? Are we saved, yet being saved, shall be saved? What does the practice of our scriptural beliefs yield us?

It's all three. Salvation happens in an instant, is a process, and is a future event. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Biblically, it's known as justification (salvation from the penalty of sin), sanctification (salvation from the power of sin), and glorification (salvation from the presence of sin). The first happens why I initially believe and obey the Gospel. The second is what occurs in my daily walk with God. And the third happens when I receive my resurrected/glorified body. One reason why I do hold to eternal security, or the preservation of the saints, is because Paul explicitly says "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30). It's a continuous, unbroken chain--all dependent on the will and decree of God, not my own power. "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy" (Romans 9:16).