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Post by kitty on Nov 9, 2007 21:10:00 GMT -5
Rachel,
Last time I checked... Bowling alley's and most other public places are non smoking. Not to mention that although I believe people can fellowship while bowling... I don't exactly see myself as bowling for God. Or going to the movie for God either considering that ther are very few Christian movies out there...
Also notice that I stated that the church doesn't need it "if they can't afford it"...
The place that I am refering to in particular is the church of friend who as stated that his Pastor and church board had gotten in over their heads with the deal and are now putting the squeeze on the congregation because the project is now costing a lot more than what they orignally thought.
Sadly money from this mulitmillion deal could have gone to several people going to college, helping families that are in true need with medical bills, child care, needing food and shelter, those who have lost jobs that need help with rent and mortage... and the list goes on and on....
Why are we acting like people don't have these needs any more?
Or maybe we suggest just call all those with those kind of problems... Lazy and irresponsible.
I personally consider it to be irresponsible to allow my money to be used that way.
Just my personal thoughts....
Kitty
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Post by stillfocused on Nov 9, 2007 23:43:30 GMT -5
Kitty....you bring to light something very interesting. We pay our tithes and offerings faithfully..I am not saying that you are warranted to get anything because you do. Yet, when there is a need..there is nothing available to assist those in serious need. Because the money has been spent on hotel costs for speakers, on refreshments in the green room, on the lighting system..yet, we it all being used..yet, not justin those times that seem very important to someone else.
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 10, 2007 2:23:27 GMT -5
We have to take precuation not to take specific situations and label them across the entire sector of Christianity. YES there is a sin called gluttony. The question is WHO determines whether a person has reached the point of gluttony.. YOU or GOD.. Its this simple.. If that person asks GOD and GOD says yes.. then guess what.. it AINT SIN... period... Again the level of ignorance ( and by ignorance I mean LACK OF KNOWLEDGE not stupidity ) just boggles my mind. I know of churches and pastor and ministers who have given of themselves their time and resources time and time and time again. I know of peoples rent to have been paid when they were being thrown out of their house. I know of people getting money for legal fees when they needed representation. I know of people getting help for transportation costs to and from work for them and their children. WEEKLY I know of people getting assistance financially to help them look for jobs. WEEKLY I know of people having been burned out of their homes and the church replacing their wardrobe. I know of people who have had their food bill paid for by the church. WEEKLY I know of churches that are literally supplimenting folks income WEEKLY.. And some of these same ministers are the ones who own a big house and drive expensive cars or own more than one vehicle. You know the problem. SOME of what you see when a man or woman of GOD is blessed abundantly is GOD rewarding them OPENLY for things that they have done in secret... some of them FOR YEARS AND YEARS.... And ONCE AGAIN the assumption being made is that if a minsiter is operating at a certain level of finances then it follow that he MUST be stealing from the church OR misappropropriating or abusing church finances... THAT to me is a shame before GOD... Who are WE to dictate what a person can have and cant have  Again the Bible gives examples of men who were blessed ABUNDANTLY by God... But dont be blessed in the church today.. dont own several nice suit... dont live in a nice house... dont drive a nice car.. that means you in sin.. and you stealin.... never mind that we have a GOD who has said in HIS Word that HE will propsper us AND teach us HOW to prosper on every level and some of that level does include finances. What I am saying is this.. YES there are people who misuse funds.. and YES there are people who steal... But PLEASE can we stop labeling EVERYONE who operates at a certain level of finances and blessing in that basket... Thats like labeling EVERY prophet as off because you saw one off prophet... And by the way I thought it was GOD who meets our needs.. I tell you.. some of ya'll have NO IDEA what its like to be in a church where folks are CONSISTENTLY lied to and manipulated for their finances... You ever sit in a FOUR HOUR offering ? and I dont mean once in a while.. I mean every week... You ever have your name exposed PUBLICALLY because you wouldnt give to a project You ever get called out before an ENTIRE CONGREGATION because you wouldnt give into an offering... You ever get talked about through sermons on NATIONAL TV for SIX MONTHS STRAIGHT I have.... And although I experienced that FIRST HAND.. It has never pushed me to the point where I am suspicious of people because they have obtained a certain lifestyle.... I realize that MANY of these men and women have paid a tremendous price to operate and be blessed at the level where they are. I realize that some of them have done things in secreat and been a blessing to folks with NO accolades for it for YEARS... SO yes there are fakers and charletons... But are we so dense that we fail to realize that the Bible says GIVE and it SHALL be given unto good measure pressed down shaken together and running over shall MEN give into your bosom... and YES that scripture has been misused and used to manipulate folks but does that change the fact it is GOD's word and GOD's truth even ONE IOTA Are we so blinded by our fear and mistrust that we cant see that SOME of these people are actually doing things the RIGHT way and GOD is blessing them ABUNDANTLY for it |
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Post by Rachel2 on Nov 10, 2007 12:00:20 GMT -5
Miss Kitty,
I live in the Midwest, St. Louis specifically and there are NO smoke free bowling alleys to my knowledge in the area. My pastor and his wife took their children bowling as recent as 3 weeks ago and had to leave the bowling alley because the cigarette smoke was so harsh.
I don't consider bowling as something we do for God either. But I do understand that we are not only spirit, but mind and body as well. Everything is not spiritual. Even Christians need some time to just relax and enjoy recreational activities. And bowling is a good way to just hang out with your family and friends.
Every movie doesn't need to have a Christian theme, just be free of foul language, sex, and violence.
As far as the poor, scripture says they will always be with us. So no matter how much money is being spent on A,B or C we will never eradicate poverty. That's bible.
I also know of pastors and congregations who have paid rent, mortgages, bailed non church going family members out of jail, paid electric bills, bought food and even let some church members stay in their homes, etc..........
So, financial abuse is not going on in every ministry, church or congregation. Each and every situation is very, very different.
It's just very unfortunate that when an investigation of this kind "blows threw" we start to think that every ministry is suspect.
Just my opinion.
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Post by anointedteacher on Nov 10, 2007 16:47:41 GMT -5
Amen!!! to Giant and Rachel2.... I know my rent have been paid once and I received food from my church once. I have also seen many ppl including non church goer receiving assistance from the church. I have seen homeless crack heads put into hotel till we find a drug rehab to accept them. I have seen ppl rent and mortgage being paid, utilities bills and food being funded from the church. Some even get cash advantage. I seen offering taken up for members in needs, etc...
We need to stop labeling God's leaders.... I believe only a small percentage is mishandling funds.
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Post by kitty on Nov 10, 2007 21:41:15 GMT -5
Look Guys,
I'm not trying to suggest that EVERY pastor or EVERY church is robbing their members or acting outside of God will.
But I am saying that with the new emergence of things like the "Mega Church" where people seem to aspire to have the "Mega Bucks" something seems to be a bit amiss... I think we all need to be just a little careful, or more active in having a say of how our tithes and offers are being used. In that sense I just think we should be good stewards over what God has given us... When you give money to those who waste it... That's wasting mony that God has given you.
And where as maybe God may have told "one Pastor and church" to build a bowling alley... Is not likely that He told it to all the others... But there seems to be a competition at times between churches to see just how ,"Ghetto Faboulous" they can be... I mean sometimes you may feel your looking at MTV's version of "Pimp my Ride" meets "Let's buy the Biggest Building we can imagine".
Again I feel that this is all fine and good when the church can afford it but in a lot of cases they can't. Then the ammenities aren't really open to the members because it cost too much to run.
For example... I know of people who have been members of their churches for years but can't afford the "extra cost" to have a wedding at the church they attend?!! Shouldn't that be free to use the building you helped pay for...with the exception of paying a love offering to the Pastor?
And if a bowling alley is open up in the church... Am I paying to use it? I have already paid for it to be built! That's just more milking the people for a business... And it doesn't make for a very good one for the members..
For example... I am a member of a health club. For the fee I pay to join... I have access to the whirl pool, swimming pool, all of the classes, all of the equipment.... I don't have to pay extra for those items... If I don't do it at the gym then why would I do it at church?
Rachel... Yes the bible states that there will alway be poor... But that doesn't mean that God want us to ignore them especially if they are paying tithes and offerings...
Rachel I too are from the midwest... I grew up in chicago... I would bet a lot of money that I could find at least one bowling alley in your area that is smoke free. They certainly all are in Chicago... In fact most of the bars are even smoke free at this point.
Kitty
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Post by kitty on Nov 10, 2007 21:48:34 GMT -5
Giants,
No I don't believe that ALL people or pastors that have wealth are practicing gluttony. I hope that's not what you took from my posts... But I am saying that when people have crossed the line it's not hard to tell... Sure ultimately what is Gluttony will be decided between them and God...
But just the same I will say this... Sin isn't hard to spot...
Secondly I will say this... there does seem to be a difference between the characteristics of those seem to mangae money well and those over the top. I always become concerned when i see forms of gluttony that involve wealth because there are usually a host of other sins that go right along with it... To me Gluttony is seems to be the most obvious one...
This isn't just people in minstry... For years it was just a mainstream issue... But it is one that I personally feel is corrupting the church more and more...
Kitty
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 10, 2007 22:18:45 GMT -5
Kitty I am not one to condone mess. I say cry loud and spare not. However I believe that the church must grow up A LOT, both leaders and laypersons when it comes the money and finances.
I do not agree that we should have a say in how the tithes and offerings are used in the church. First off The scriptures tell me that the tithe doesnt belong to us in the first place. If we are acting like its OUR tithe then I have to say to a great degree we are off. The tithe is the LORD's it never belonged to us. Once we release the offering it belongs to HIM and we should not have the attitude that still holds onto it.
As I have always said if I give where the Lord tells me to give and how much He tells me to give then my responsibility is DONE. I have obeyed God. I have gone to churches that I KNOW misappropriated funds but that was the place GOD had planted me and it was the place where GOD said sow... in fact there was a time where God had ne double tithe in that very same ministry... and God blessed me for obedience to His instructions..
If they mess up GOD's money they will have to answer to HIM... its HIS money...
IMO if one is focused on THEIR tithes and THEIR offering then they havent released it yet...
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Post by Rachel2 on Nov 11, 2007 17:02:12 GMT -5
Rachel... Yes the bible states that there will alway be poor... But that doesn't mean that God want us to ignore them especially if they are paying tithes and offerings... Rachel I too are from the midwest... I grew up in chicago... I would bet a lot of money that I could find at least one bowling alley in your area that is smoke free. They certainly all are in Chicago... In fact most of the bars are even smoke free at this point. We are not ignoring the poor that's why I stated that I know of pastors and congregations that have paid rent, mortgages, bought food, etc.... So they are not being ignored. St. Louis is in the state of Missouri and Chicago is in the State of Illinois. Maybe the bowling alleys are smoke free in Chicago, but here in St. Louis Missouri, they are not. Considering that Chicago is 290 miles from St. Louis, I don't think we are likely to travel there just for a smoke free bowling alley. And I am sure if we looked hard enough we could find just about anything, but then the question becomes "How feasible is it to travel the distance to get to it?" You do make some valid points and some of them I do agree with. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 12, 2007 17:15:01 GMT -5
I do not agree that we should have a say in how the tithes and offerings are used in the church. First off The scriptures tell me that the tithe doesnt belong to us in the first place. If we are acting like its OUR tithe then I have to say to a great degree we are off. The tithe is the LORD's it never belonged to us. Once we release the offering it belongs to HIM and we should not have the attitude that still holds onto it. I'm going to approach this from the point of view that tithing is still in force for the NT church (I don't believe that it is, but I'm taking that view for the sake of argument here). Giants, I know you know this, but when we give our tithes and offerings, we aren't literally giving them to God. God has no need of money. These are for the work of the Kingdom and are given to God's representative in the earth, which is the Church. The Church is composed of all of the redeemed, not just the "clergy." To say that the church as a whole should have no say in how funds are directed is pretty much the same as saying that members should not be informed as to how their funds are being directed, and with that I patently disagree. I'm sorry, but there's no way in the world that I'm giving of my substance to a ministry that's misusing them. That's not wisdom. |
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Post by Beulah5 on Nov 12, 2007 17:58:09 GMT -5
Just wanting to say that on the tithing issue- everyone knew my stand on tithing at present and to a measure i was blessed by giving freely unto God. However i had an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ just before summer when He appeared to me in church on our 'fire night'. He appeared to me as the Shepherd of the House of Israel and as well as calling me into ministry He told me that i also needed to stop stealing from Him ie i needed to start tithing 1/10th. As i have began giving 1/10th i find that it is not about money but about yieldedness. The other day tbn was on somewhere and Paula was preaching and the lord told me to ring and give all the money in my account to tbn and yes i believe that paula can be a shark but the lord was making a point that is is about obedience not the receiver after all who were we when Jesus chose to die for us. I rang tbn and gave everything and would you believe it the next day when i went to my account there was money in there......................this is not the first time that money has supernaturally appeared in my bank account but it was the speed that supprised me. For me a lot of issues that we have with money in christian dom has everything to do with our hearts..... Amen Carry on...  |
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 12, 2007 18:49:22 GMT -5
I do not agree that we should have a say in how the tithes and offerings are used in the church. First off The scriptures tell me that the tithe doesnt belong to us in the first place. If we are acting like its OUR tithe then I have to say to a great degree we are off. The tithe is the LORD's it never belonged to us. Once we release the offering it belongs to HIM and we should not have the attitude that still holds onto it. I'm going to approach this from the point of view that tithing is still in force for the NT church (I don't believe that it is, but I'm taking that view for the sake of argument here). Giants, I know you know this, but when we give our tithes and offerings, we aren't literally giving them to God. God has no need of money. These are for the work of the Kingdom and are given to God's representative in the earth, which is the Church. The Church is composed of all of the redeemed, not just the "clergy." To say that the church as a whole should have no say in how funds are directed is pretty much the same as saying that members should not be informed as to how their funds are being directed, and with that I patently disagree. I'm sorry, but there's no way in the world that I'm giving of my substance to a ministry that's misusing them. That's not wisdom. We are at an impasse in several areas regarding this. 1) I believe tithing is completely in force in the NT chruch. 2) God said in His word that the tithe is His. I give my tithes to God. 3) I dont believe that the church as a whole should direct how money is allocated. 4) I DO believe that a church SHOULD report how funds have been spent. My church does this but the laypeople do NOT have a say in how it is spent. 5) I give where and how much GOD directs me to give. If people misuse GOD's money.. then thats between them and GOD. He will reward me for my obedience. WISDOM is to follow GOD's instruction. 6) I dont see money as belonging to ME. I am a steward over what GOD gives me. |
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Post by chosen on Nov 12, 2007 19:40:56 GMT -5
I'm going to approach this from the point of view that tithing is still in force for the NT church (I don't believe that it is, but I'm taking that view for the sake of argument here). Giants, I know you know this, but when we give our tithes and offerings, we aren't literally giving them to God. God has no need of money. These are for the work of the Kingdom and are given to God's representative in the earth, which is the Church. The Church is composed of all of the redeemed, not just the "clergy." To say that the church as a whole should have no say in how funds are directed is pretty much the same as saying that members should not be informed as to how their funds are being directed, and with that I patently disagree. I'm sorry, but there's no way in the world that I'm giving of my substance to a ministry that's misusing them. That's not wisdom. We are at an impasse in several areas regarding this. 1) I believe tithing is completely in force in the NT chruch. 2) God said in His word that the tithe is His. I give my tithes to God. 3) I dont believe that the church as a whole should direct how money is allocated. 4) I DO believe that a church SHOULD report how funds have been spent. My church does this but the laypeople do NOT have a say in how it is spent. 5) I give where and how much GOD directs me to give. If people misuse GOD's money.. then thats between them and GOD. He will reward me for my obedience. WISDOM is to follow GOD's instruction. 6) I dont see money as belonging to ME. I am a steward over what GOD gives me. That is some great Wisdom Giant! Thank you for sharing ;D |
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 12, 2007 20:16:06 GMT -5
Just wanting to say that on the tithing issue- everyone knew my stand on tithing at present and to a measure i was blessed by giving freely unto God. However i had an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ just before summer when He appeared to me in church on our 'fire night'. He appeared to me as the Shepherd of the House of Israel and as well as calling me into ministry He told me that i also needed to stop stealing from Him ie i needed to start tithing 1/10th. As i have began giving 1/10th i find that it is not about money but about yieldedness. The other day tbn was on somewhere and Paula was preaching and the lord told me to ring and give all the money in my account to tbn and yes i believe that paula can be a shark but the lord was making a point that is is about obedience not the receiver after all who were we when Jesus chose to die for us. I rang tbn and gave everything and would you believe it the next day when i went to my account there was money in there......................this is not the first time that money has supernaturally appeared in my bank account but it was the speed that supprised me. For me a lot of issues that we have with money in christian dom has everything to do with our hearts..... Amen Carry on... Beulah thats who I first learned about tithing. I didnt learn it in church. God showed me Himself in His word, believe it or not when I was unsaved and didnt know His Word.. I cried out one day because I was stuggling financially.. GOD WHY AM I SO BROKE... Had a dream that night and heard one Word.. Malachi.. I didnt even know what Malachi was so I asked my mom who was saved. She said its a book in the Bible.. God showed me Malachi 3 is the reason Im broke... So I understand where you are coming from. |
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Post by chosen on Nov 12, 2007 21:56:57 GMT -5
IT is so true, Im struggling with my tithes as well. Im doing my best, its hard cause we are suppose to give our tithes according to the net amount, the amount before taxes rather. Man they be taxes me to death and plus all those extra money they take out for benefits, It don't leave you very much to live on. So it is a dailey struggle with me, I want to be a good steward and give what belongs to God. To trully be blessed by God is to be a giver.
Can anyone share some advise, when it comes to finaces and budgeting I will tell the truth I am not good at all.
Love
Jessica
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Again the Bible gives examples of men who were blessed ABUNDANTLY by God... 
