Senate Probes Televangelists' Finances

[giantsdodie]

chosen said:

IT is so true, Im struggling with my tithes as well. Im doing my best, its hard cause we are suppose to give our tithes according to the net amount, the amount before taxes rather. Man they be taxes me to death and plus all those extra money they take out for benefits, It don't leave you very much to live on. So it is a dailey struggle with me, I want to be a good steward and give what belongs to God. To trully be blessed by God is to be a giver.

Can anyone share some advise, when it comes to finaces and budgeting I will tell the truth I am not good at all.

Love
Jessica

Tithing can be a challenge especially when you look at it from only one persepctive. Unfortunately people only tend to look at it from the perspective of the curse. if I dont tithe then I will be cursed. They neglect looking at the reality of the blessings are favor that comes from obeying God in the area of tithes and offerings.

Yes it can be a struggle and yes it can be a challenge. I had to learn how to sit down with GOD and go over my budget and my finances and find ways to cut down on expenses so that I could manage my money better.

[krazeeboi]

giantsdodie said:

We are at an impasse in several areas regarding this.

1) I believe tithing is completely in force in the NT chruch.

2) God said in His word that the tithe is His. I give my tithes to God.

I know we disagree on this subject, but what we're talking about here goes far beyond tithing. It's about giving in general.

3) I dont believe that the church as a whole should direct how money is allocated.

So who does? And based on what authority?

4) I DO believe that a church SHOULD report how funds have been spent. My church does this but the laypeople do NOT have a say in how it is spent.

Then could it not legitimately be asked, "So what's the point?"

5) I give where and how much GOD directs me to give. If people misuse GOD's money.. then thats between them and GOD. He will reward me for my obedience. WISDOM is to follow GOD's instruction.

Yes, but there are also biblical principles to follow here and not just "I heard God thunder out of the sky, 'Give me $50 or thou shalt die.'" For me, I base where I should give first and foremost on biblical principles. If a ministry is not operating honestly and in integrity, then I believe that I can withold my giving from that ministry.

6) I dont see money as belonging to ME. I am a steward over what GOD gives me.

Absolutely, which, for me, translates into not sowing into a ministry that is misusing what God has blessed me with.

[auneeqsol]

I'm with you on that Krazee...

But I do believe if a church is misusing funds then if you choose to withhold them you should still give to another ministry in which you know that they are truly giving to the purpose in which the bible plainly states.
I know some people have a difference in opinion on this, but it is very important where you give, and what you give.

Now I have grown up in the church all of my life and I was taught tithing all of my life, so to do anything else was so out of the question. But I have been studying in the "Word of God" not what somebody has told me, and I do believe there is a certain way to give, not being demanded to give, but "as every man purposeth in his heart".
And forgive me I dont have too many problems with most televangelists on tbn , and I know telethon comes around every year or so, but I can't stand sometimes the messages that come across just to make people "give out of their need". Paul specifically taught about that. He said dont give out of the lack and not by someone pushing you to give.

But anyway, I believe that the people that give in the church have a right to know where the monies are being distributed. It is so selfish to say that the congregation is not privileged enough to know how much the church is taking in and where it's going just because they are to "give unto the Lord". ( i know churches who believe that way) And then when its time to get help or something you have to go through red tape just to receive assistance. I think thats ashamed. And why is there a reason why the people shouldnt know? The only reason I could think of is if you have something to hide.....

But I dont condemn clergy for having nice things, houses, etc only if the work of the ministry is not lacking.

[giantsdodie]

krazeeboi said:

giantsdodie said:

We are at an impasse in several areas regarding this.

1) I believe tithing is completely in force in the NT chruch.

2) God said in His word that the tithe is His. I give my tithes to God.

I know we disagree on this subject, but what we're talking about here goes far beyond tithing. It's about giving in general.

I have yet to understand why it seems that when tithing is discussed that somehow giving is seen as not a part of the equation. Obeying the word is both tithing and offering.

So who does? And based on what authority?

Contrary to popular belief the church is not a democracy. Its a theocracy. The average layperson should not have a say in where the finances of the church are directed any more than they should have a say in what is preached over the pulpit.

That person or persons does not have intimate knowledge of all the day to day functions that a ministry particpates in nor what finances are required to meet what needs. To have so many voices would cause utter confusion.

Much in the way an investor or a number of investors in a company do not have a direct say in how a company invests it resources, where they are spent or to what degree. too many voices breeds chaos and confusion.

Then could it not legitimately be asked So what's the point

Because the church has a responsibility to show the people of God that it is utilizing what has been given wisely. Again much in the same way a company gives out a shareholders report every year.

Yes, but there are also biblical principles to follow here and not just I heard God thunder out of the sky, 'Give me $50 or thou shalt die. For me, I base where I should give first and foremost on biblical principles. If a ministry is not operating honestly and in integrity, then I believe that I can withold my giving from that ministry.

First of I think the whole, Give me 50 dollars or that shalt die example is a bit extreme to say the least. And yes there are biblical principles to follow. However we also cannot and should not limit the Spirit of God to direct our giving. I have sat in the middle of a service in a church that I know wasnt operating the way it should be and had GOD tell me directly.. Give into THIS offering for it is of me....

I dont see money as belonging to ME. I am a steward over what GOD gives me.

Absolutely, which, for me, translates into not sowing into a ministry that is misusing what God has blessed me with.

Unless GOD gives direction to do so... I dont believe this is the norm, however I recognize the possibility AND as long as I am obeying GOD in what HE tells me to do I will still be blessed...

Allow me to to give an example.

I sowed something into someones life that GOD specifically told me to sow to cultivate a particular gift in thispersons life. This was something that was very dear and personal to me, however I sowed it as the Lord directed. The person completely misused and squandered the gift that I had given them.

Just this last Sunday one of the people of God gave me back the same item AND along with it something brand new that I wanted from the same company. I wanted to but it months ago but was not able to afford it.

What God said regarding this was.. and this is a quite "SEE, if you sow what I tell you to sow, where I tell you to sow you will NEVER lose what you sow. Not only did you get back what you sowed it came back with INCREASE. "

[Jasmine]

The laymembers do not have a say in how the money is spent. If you want to know who holds such authority, then you should really check the Bylaws, and Articles of Incorporation.

Most bylaws will state that a Board of Trustees needs to be set up and active, and those individuals usually holds the power on who, what, where, and when, with regards to the money. Just remember that as long as the Pastor is the Pastor..He holds the President seat of the board of Trustees..

Now, laymembers are entitled to know where the money has been spent, and they are entitled to see the books at any time. But as far as them telling the church how to spend the money...you wont find a bylaw supporting such.

I hope that helps.

[stillfocused]

Not every church has church bylaws..

[Nikkol]

You have to have some form of bylaws... Usually with the Articles of INcorporation, etc.

When I was a member of the baptist church and there were things being discussed about how to do certain things, it was put up to a vote by the members..... to me, that makes sense.

That's when you would hear things like:

Person 1 " I make a motion........"
Person 2 " I second that motion"
C - It has been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question
R - Question
C - All in favor say "I"
R - "I"
C- Those that oppose
R - <<usually silence>>
C - The "I's" have it

Edited: Some more info

Churches" Defined

The term church is found, but not specifically defined, in the Internal Revenue Code. With the exception of the special rules for church audits, the use of the term church also includes conventions and associations of churches as well as integrated auxiliaries of a church.

Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include:

• Distinct legal existence
  
• Recognized creed and form of worship
  
• Definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
  
• Formal code of doctrine and discipline
  
• Distinct religious history
  
• Membership not associated with any other church or denomination
  
• Organization of ordained ministers
  
• Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study
  
• Literature of its own
  
• Established places of workshop
  
• Regular congregations
  
• Regular religious services
  
• Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young
  
• Schools for the preparation of its members
  

The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes.

[giantsdodie]

Our church has a financial officer and the financial officer gives a report to the pastor and the asst pastor. Funds cannot be allocated to anything without the approval of at least one other person. All records of tithes and offerings are recorded as well as all payments, distribution of finances ( and that includes salaries as well as people receiving assistance from the church ) etc etc.

The church has a financial meeting once a year that all members are REQUIRED to attend so that the financial committee can give an account of how all monies for that year were allocated.

Everyone also receives detailed records of their tithe and offering statements every year well in advance.

And we are a small church.. ( I mean less than 50 people )

We also have leadership meetings every month where church business is discussed and prayed about.

[stillfocused]

I know what they are..but, all churches don't have bylaws and etc. I grew up in the baptist church..they had them. I attended one church and if we wanted to see the books we could.
This is just me..I believe that's why it's so much in mess going in our churches because we know about the bylaws and etc, than we do the Bible. And if we were to really look hard; we wouldn't find none the churches represented that had bylaws. My mom had a stroke..messing with church politics..it's not that important.

[Jasmine]

Just to recap on something Nikkol posted

Distinct legal existence...is Bylaws & Articles of Incorporation. If your church is apart of an organization, then they may have articles of incorp of that organization, however a church in its own name, but still have Articles, as well as bylaws, which does gives specific duties for the president, secretary, treasurer, and board of director at large.

Now, if your church does not have articles or bylaws, then they aren't really a legal organization, and they cannot hold a 501c3 status, because these things are required.

So..if i felt my church was in this position, I would definitely ask.

[Nikkol]

jasmine said:

Just to recap on something Nikkol posted

Distinct legal existence...is Bylaws & Articles of Incorporation. If your church is apart of an organization, then they may have articles of incorp of that organization, however a church in its own name, but still have Articles, as well as bylaws, which does gives specific duties for the president, secretary, treasurer, and board of director at large.

Now, if your church does not have articles or bylaws, then they aren't really a legal organization, and they cannot hold a 501c3 status, because these things are required.

So..if i felt my church was in this position, I would definitely ask.

Just to piggyback.... and without that, you aren't deemed as a "church"

[krazeeboi]

giantsdodie said:

I have yet to understand why it seems that when tithing is discussed that somehow giving is seen as not a part of the equation. Obeying the word is both tithing and offering.

I only said what I said about tithing for the sake of argument based on my personal opinion about tithing; that's all.

Contrary to popular belief the church is not a democracy. Its a theocracy. The average layperson should not have a say in where the finances of the church are directed any more than they should have a say in what is preached over the pulpit.

Firstly, what does a theocracy entail? One thing I can tell you that it does not entail--one elite group of superstar leaders wielding power over the "average layperson."

We've lost the true meaning of what it means to be the Church, the ekklesia, with our obssession with the corporate world, which is the very antithesis of God's purpose for His elect. This is a great article on what it truly means to be the Church at the most fundamental level.

Much of what is being said in this thread is all the more evidence that the Church needs to get out of bed with Babylon.

I'm very convinced that with all that's going on in Christendom today, God is reorganizing and reconstituting His Church according to His original intentions, which includes the very structure of His holy institution. As is, we're far from it.

[chosen]

giantsdodie said:

chosen said:

IT is so true, Im struggling with my tithes as well. Im doing my best, its hard cause we are suppose to give our tithes according to the net amount, the amount before taxes rather. Man they be taxes me to death and plus all those extra money they take out for benefits, It don't leave you very much to live on. So it is a dailey struggle with me, I want to be a good steward and give what belongs to God. To trully be blessed by God is to be a giver.

Can anyone share some advise, when it comes to finaces and budgeting I will tell the truth I am not good at all.

Love
Jessica

Tithing can be a challenge especially when you look at it from only one persepctive. Unfortunately people only tend to look at it from the perspective of the curse. if I dont tithe then I will be cursed. They neglect looking at the reality of the blessings are favor that comes from obeying God in the area of tithes and offerings.

Yes it can be a struggle and yes it can be a challenge. I had to learn how to sit down with GOD and go over my budget and my finances and find ways to cut down on expenses so that I could manage my money better.

So true Giant, Especially when you don't have much to work with in the first place and your barely making ends meet.

[giantsdodie]

krazeeboi said:

giantsdodie said:

I have yet to understand why it seems that when tithing is discussed that somehow giving is seen as not a part of the equation. Obeying the word is both tithing and offering.

I only said what I said about tithing for the sake of argument based on my personal opinion about tithing; that's all.

Contrary to popular belief the church is not a democracy. Its a theocracy. The average layperson should not have a say in where the finances of the church are directed any more than they should have a say in what is preached over the pulpit.

Firstly, what does a theocracy entail? One thing I can tell you that it does not entail--one elite group of superstar leaders wielding power over the "average layperson."

We've lost the true meaning of what it means to be the Church, the ekklesia, with our obssession with the corporate world, which is the very antithesis of God's purpose for His elect. This is a great article on what it truly means to be the Church at the most fundamental level.

Much of what is being said in this thread is all the more evidence that the Church needs to get out of bed with Babylon.

I'm very convinced that with all that's going on in Christendom today, God is reorganizing and reconstituting His Church according to His original intentions, which includes the very structure of His holy institution. As is, we're far from it.

I do not agree with elitism nor suoerstar cekebrity staus within the church. I believe that leadership is accountable, however I do believe that God sets people in authority in the church bby His will, and those people are responsible to run the church in the fashion that GOD sees fit. Thats a theocracy.

I do not believe that laypersons should be totally ignorant of the operations of the church and the leadership is responsible to amke clear the direction in which God is taking the church as well as giving an account for finances spent.

One thing I have found is that we need to see through our own prejudices regarding the church. Every church does nit run in the fashion that we believe it does.

[giantsdodie]

chosen said:

giantsdodie said:

Tithing can be a challenge especially when you look at it from only one persepctive. Unfortunately people only tend to look at it from the perspective of the curse. if I dont tithe then I will be cursed. They neglect looking at the reality of the blessings are favor that comes from obeying God in the area of tithes and offerings.

Yes it can be a struggle and yes it can be a challenge. I had to learn how to sit down with GOD and go over my budget and my finances and find ways to cut down on expenses so that I could manage my money better.

So true Giant, Especially when you don't have much to work with in the first place and your barely making ends meet.

Tithing has to be done by faith and it cannot be done from a position of fear. We have to know God's promises for obeying His word in this area.