Singles Ministry

[giantsdodie]

Here is my issue.

I tend to be specific when I pray. I try to pray the Word of God and the Will of God whenever I pray about a situation.

You are asking me to pray to GOD to ask HIM to change someone elses mind. It has nothing to do with your position.

Have you sought the Lord to even ask if HE wants this person involved with this ministry? Maybe you think this man is well qualified. Maybe GOD thinks otherwise. Maybe he is very well qualified but it is not his time or season for this type of ministry.

Your perception of what he does and does not do, or how busy he is or is not really isnt the issue.

The real question is what does the LORD Himself think.

This is why I would not pray that GOD change his mind. I dont know the will of God in this area. For me to pray that solely based on YOUR desire is not the way to pray. We are to pray the will of GOD.

If this man has already said that this is not something that is he is willing to do it would absolutely be witchcraft for me to pray AGAINST His will.

Systematic witchcraft is the attempt to subvert anothers will for one's own purposes or benefit. What you are essentially saying is.. God make this person do what I want them to do. God aint doing that and neither am I.

There is no reason to take it personally. I am simply informing you of how I will be praying. I will pray that God give you wisdom and that God send you help. That is perfectly within the will of God.

[Rachel2]

stillfocused said:

As a single woman...I fully understand the need for ministry in that area. Rachel..may I suggest that you have a time where everyone gets together to find out where they are, what they enjoy, what some of their concerns are. I know that you are looking for a older person who has been saved for some years, and who has embraced being single. Just maybe there is a younger person there who is walking in righteousness and holiness who can assist you..too many times singles ministry consist of food, games, outings, and hanging out. The church I attend in small, too. We would get together once a month..eat..play board games..and that was the extent of it. Yet, there was no spend on feeding one's spirit on how to deal with challenges, ups and downs, and for some how to deal with those uncontrolled urges. I have to agree with GDD regarding the brother changing his mind...pray that God will send you the person who will be able to bring balance to that ministry. When you pray against someone's will whether we admit it or not one does move into the area of witchcraft praying..it actually binds that person up. Things start happening and there is no explanation for all of the confusion..until you talk to someone and find out that they have been praying for you..and their prayer has been " God change their minds..show them that I am the person that they are to marry..show them I am the person who is to stand along side of them as they serve the Pastor as his armourbearer..

Thank you Stillfocused. That is exactly what I have planned to do. Address the real issues. Our first meeting is tomorrow night. I have already created a survey for them to take in order for me to see where they are before we even get started. I don't want to assume anything. We will eventually get around to games and fun. But I believe as you stated earlier, that it is utmost important to build a foundation.

I went to a Christian Singles Website and found some very helpful information. We will either discuss Sex and the Single Person or The Biblical Perspective of Singleness. Both are very good. Since I understand I am not dealing with children, I will give them a choice. I know that sex is a burning issue for most singles.

I have prepared pocket folders for them to keep the material that we discuss so they can refer to it later. I have also written a mission statement and some bylaws that have been approved by the Pastor. I am not so much focused on them having a good time as I am helping them to realize they can overcome and live a happy sanctified single life. I have been saved for 20 years and single for 17, so I know what single saved women have to deal with and therefore, I want to help them.

And I plan to delegate. We will hold elections for a Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Events Planner. So, the Lord has truly been helping me. And I have friends who have sent me information as well.

I want them to understand that this is OUR ministry, not just mine. And that I welcome their input and ideas. And that we all have to work to make this happen, not just me.

You are right, there may be a young single brother who is able to help the others. Again, thanks.

[kitty]

Hey Guys,
I have a few questions for you all...
Like seriously... Do you guys really believe in witchcraft prayers?
I mean if a person is praying to God about a matter... Not the devil but to God... don't we think that God is not more than willing about able to answer this person's prayers with a yes or more importantly a "No".

I think it is great for us to be at a level where we are truly seeking God's will in a matter. But just the same..... we don't always know what God's will is... so if we are praying to God. He can change our hearts and make His will clear in a matter.

I'm not of the mind set that anyone's prayers to God, which are against God will can bind anyone up in any format. To me that would suggest that we are able to twist God's arm to do something that He doesn't want to do which is not the case.

Rachel... if you prayed to God and aske Him to change someone's mind I think it was simply a heart felt prayer. I don't think you were seeking to do "witchcraft" and I'm sure that God is aware of that as well.

It's simply a prayer... God can always answer it yes or no...


Kitty

[Rachel2]

Thanks Kitty (smile)

[stillfocused]

Yes..I do believe that you can pray and move into witchcraft praying. We often think of witchcraft as spells and curses..and incanations and like. Yet, because the kingdom of God is word operated. You can be praying someone and move over into area will you are praying against the will of God for that person's life. I just had it happen to me recently and I had to tell the person..don't pray that I will change my mind regarding them..because what they were praying was not what God had spoken to me regarding the matter. We talk about binding and loosing..if you look at the scripture closely..it tells you that you bind on earth is bound in heaven..and what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven. That's why many times you better know what you're agreeing to when someone calls and ask you to stand in agreement with them. I

[livinganewlife]

kitty said:

Hey Guys,
I have a few questions for you all...
Like seriously... Do you guys really believe in witchcraft prayers?
I mean if a person is praying to God about a matter... Not the devil but to God... don't we think that God is not more than willing about able to answer this person's prayers with a yes or more importantly a "No".

I think it is great for us to be at a level where we are truly seeking God's will in a matter. But just the same..... we don't always know what God's will is... so if we are praying to God. He can change our hearts and make His will clear in a matter.

I'm not of the mind set that anyone's prayers to God, which are against God will can bind anyone up in any format. To me that would suggest that we are able to twist God's arm to do something that He doesn't want to do which is not the case.

Rachel... if you prayed to God and aske Him to change someone's mind I think it was simply a heart felt prayer. I don't think you were seeking to do "witchcraft" and I'm sure that God is aware of that as well.

It's simply a prayer... God can always answer it yes or no...


Kitty

I don't believe in witchcraft prayers because as long as our prayers are backed by the Word of God we are in his will....God's will is His Word.......

we can pray to defeat our enemies as David did, we can pray for healing, deliverance, salvation and whatever...the Bible says to cast all your cares upon him for he careth for us.....

Also, it is written that the spirit makes intercession for us while we pray........

If Jesus abides in me and I abide in him even when I am praying wrong the spirit comes in and makes intercession for me.

[giantsdodie]

livinganewlife said:

kitty said:

Hey Guys,
I have a few questions for you all...
Like seriously... Do you guys really believe in witchcraft prayers?
I mean if a person is praying to God about a matter... Not the devil but to God... don't we think that God is not more than willing about able to answer this person's prayers with a yes or more importantly a "No".

I think it is great for us to be at a level where we are truly seeking God's will in a matter. But just the same..... we don't always know what God's will is... so if we are praying to God. He can change our hearts and make His will clear in a matter.

I'm not of the mind set that anyone's prayers to God, which are against God will can bind anyone up in any format. To me that would suggest that we are able to twist God's arm to do something that He doesn't want to do which is not the case.

Rachel... if you prayed to God and aske Him to change someone's mind I think it was simply a heart felt prayer. I don't think you were seeking to do "witchcraft" and I'm sure that God is aware of that as well.

It's simply a prayer... God can always answer it yes or no...


Kitty

I don't believe in witchcraft prayers because as long as our prayers are backed by the Word of God we are in his will....God's will is His Word.......

we can pray to defeat our enemies as David did, we can pray for healing, deliverance, salvation and whatever...the Bible says to cast all your cares upon him for he careth for us.....

Also, it is written that the spirit makes intercession for us while we pray........

If Jesus abides in me and I abide in him even when I am praying wrong the spirit comes in and makes intercession for me.

I am sorry but you are wrong... some of your assumptions are incorrect...

If you are praying His word and you are praying His will then NO you are not operating in witchcraft....

The scripture doesnt not say that if you are praying amiss that the Spirit of God swoops in and fixes it for you.

If you are praying in self and you are praying outside of the will of God then you CAN be off and enter into witchcraft or soulish prayers.. God will not honor those prayers...

If the Spirit of God just automatically shows up and fixes our off prayers then scriptures like this would not be true..

“Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.” (James 4:3 KJV)

Seeking after our own desires instead of God’s shows that our hearts are filled with a measure of iniquity, in which case the Lord will not hear our prayer:



“If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.” (Ps 66:18 KJV)

Whenever Israel asked for God’s blessing while simultaneously walking in disobedience, Scripture teaches that God became “angry” with their prayers (Psalms 80:4). They were going through all the ceremony and programmed ritual of playing church, but they were walking in sin (Isaiah 1:10-15). They even fell into the same pagan trap of offering repetitious prayer like many in the church today. Whenever this happens, God hides Himself and refuses to hear our prayers:

“So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, yes, even though you multiply [repeat] prayers, I will not listen.” (Isaiah 1:15 NAS)

The reality is that we can pray off and we can pray amiss..

Lets recognize that we need to be focusing on praying the will of God.. Seeking God for HIS will... Sure we can make our requests known.. thats scripture.. but even in making our requests known we should see the LORD about what we should actually be desiring in the first place...

Thats why the word tells us if we delight ourselves in the Lord He will give us the desires of our hearts..

We tend to think that means God will give me all the stuff I want...

When it really means when you make GOD your focus and your desire.. then HE in turn gives you the desires you SHOULD have.. and then THOSE desires He will give you...because they are in line with HIS will...

and YES you can pray off.. you can pray amiss.. and you CAN get over into psychic ( soulish ) prayers...

[kitty]

Giants,
Big brother you know I truly appreciate you right?! I have learned a lot from you over the years and you have most definitely given me some insight to praying and seeking God. I agree that people should seek the will of God. I agree that people shouldn't pray according to their own lusts.

But in this case here... I think the original poster was honestly seeking to pray for help in a situation in which she only saw one possible solution to her problem. I see her prayer as possibly hoping that someone would help her in ministry to do work FOR GOD.... So I think we are taking things a little bit out of context when we suggest that she is praying witchcraft prayers.

Secondly... God doesn't ALWAYS reveal what His will is in a situation BEFORE hand. Sometimes God does and sometime he doesn't. I believe that the important part is simply that we all acknowledge that God is sovereign and be able to receive that sometimes His answer is no.

The reason that I state this is because I don't think it is a good idea for us as Christians to declare that if we don't know what God's will is in a situation then we are automaticly praying our own lust with the desire to have personal control.

Plus knowning God's will in a situation before hand can be kinda sticky.

For example.... As I have stated on this BB before, there have been two occasions that God revealed to me that people were going to die. In both occasions I didn't receive what I given. In the first case I was very young so I brushed it off as simply a bad dream and fear.

But in the dream/vision God gave me... Every single detail came to pass... starting with the first one that my cousin got sick with cancer and died. The other things that were revealed to me came to pass over a 15 year time period. None of those things that were revealed were especially delightful... There weren't all bad... but it's was not great either. In that case I think God was just teaching me that He is indeed all powerful and knows and decides the beginning and the end.

The second case happened about a year ago when my Pastor died. On the last day that I saw him, God stated that, "This will be the last time you see him alive." I didn't receive that either. Instead I rebuked the devil....

I moved to another state and later on in the year I got calls from my former church members telling me to pray because my Pastor was sick and the doctors didn't know what was wrong with him. Now at the time... I hadn't recalled what I received so I did pray for my Pastor to be healed... But if I had recalled then would I have been, "praying outside of God's will".

Sometimes God is kind by NOT revealing His will ahead of time.

Again Giants I agree that it is a good thing for us to seek God and pray for His will to be done. I also think it is fine for us to come to God and tell Him what the desires of our hearts are... Because if we are sincere about wanting to please God and walk in His will He is gracious to change our hearts and work with us so that we are in agreement with Him...


But we aren't going to always know what His will is ahead of time... We simply have to trust Him.


Kitty

[And Such Were Some Of You]

Ok, ummmmm how 'bout this (which brother GDD already aluded to):

Should we serve in ANY area of ministry according to what God's will is? I have learned that I am not going to serve anywhere in which I don't feel God is leading me to. Therefore, is there a possiblity that just maybe the brother does not feel that this is God's will for him at this moment? So to pray otherwise would be ___________________________ well, all of what Giants said! LOL

[giantsdodie]

kitty said:

Giants,
Big brother you know I truly appreciate you right?! I have learned a lot from you over the years and you have most definitely given me some insight to praying and seeking God. I agree that people should seek the will of God. I agree that people shouldn't pray according to their own lusts.

But in this case here... I think the original poster was honestly seeking to pray for help in a situation in which she only saw one possible solution to her problem. I see her prayer as possibly hoping that someone would help her in ministry to do work FOR GOD.... So I think we are taking things a little bit out of context when we suggest that she is praying witchcraft prayers.

Secondly... God doesn't ALWAYS reveal what His will is in a situation BEFORE hand. Sometimes God does and sometime he doesn't. I believe that the important part is simply that we all acknowledge that God is sovereign and be able to receive that sometimes His answer is no.

The reason that I state this is because I don't think it is a good idea for us as Christians to declare that if we don't know what God's will is in a situation then we are automaticly praying our own lust with the desire to have personal control.

Plus knowning God's will in a situation before hand can be kinda sticky.

For example.... As I have stated on this BB before, there have been two occasions that God revealed to me that people were going to die. In both occasions I didn't receive what I given. In the first case I was very young so I brushed it off as simply a bad dream and fear.

But in the dream/vision God gave me... Every single detail came to pass... starting with the first one that my cousin got sick with cancer and died. The other things that were revealed to me came to pass over a 15 year time period. None of those things that were revealed were especially delightful... There weren't all bad... but it's was not great either. In that case I think God was just teaching me that He is indeed all powerful and knows and decides the beginning and the end.

The second case happened about a year ago when my Pastor died. On the last day that I saw him, God stated that, "This will be the last time you see him alive." I didn't receive that either. Instead I rebuked the devil....

I moved to another state and later on in the year I got calls from my former church members telling me to pray because my Pastor was sick and the doctors didn't know what was wrong with him. Now at the time... I hadn't recalled what I received so I did pray for my Pastor to be healed... But if I had recalled then would I have been, "praying outside of God's will".

Sometimes God is kind by NOT revealing His will ahead of time.

Again Giants I agree that it is a good thing for us to seek God and pray for His will to be done. I also think it is fine for us to come to God and tell Him what the desires of our hearts are... Because if we are sincere about wanting to please God and walk in His will He is gracious to change our hearts and work with us so that we are in agreement with Him...


But we aren't going to always know what His will is ahead of time... We simply have to trust Him.


Kitty

I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

First off the poster did not make a request from help. Read that post again.

The poster said they wanted help from a particular person who declared that they didnt have the time..

There is one brother who I feel would be good to work with, he's single and has lots of experience like myself. Of course, he says that he already has enough to do. So will you pray with me that God changes his mind?

Notice here we have not talked about praying and asking the Lord first to get his direction. The person stated that they already have enough work to day. They said NO. Then there is a request for me to pray with them so GOD will change their mind.

THAT my dear plain and simple whether you agree or not, would be witchcraft for me to pray tha prayer.

Then there is a assumption of this other persons time and availability.

The guy in question doesn' t work a full-time or part-time job. He's on disability and at home all day or hanging out at the library. He has no children, never married and has more time on his hands than most people, single or otherwise. He is the pastor's adjutant and to my knowledge all he does is make phone calls to remind us of meetings and stuff.

Once again there is no prayer, there is no seeking of the Lord regarding the individual... Its really not about what we FEEL. For me to pray AGAINST their will agan would be witchcraft on my part.

I said I would pray and ask GOD to send help, which I have done. I said I would NOT pray to change that persons mind, ESPECIALLY when I dont know the will of GOD in that area..

Now as far as knowing the will of God... I completely respectfully disagree with you.

We can know God's will if we seek His will because He has said HE will declare His will. I have never seen a scripture in which GOD says Sometimes we will know His will... and sometimes we wont.. sorry...

The problem is we dont often know or understand the HOW in the accomplishing of God's will. That is where trust comes in. But God all throughout HIS word shows Himself as a person who WILL reveal His Will.

The very word of GOD is a revelation of His will.

And here is the proof....

God will reveal His will

Psalm 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant.

Amos 3:7 AMP
Surely the Lord God will do nothing without revealing His secret to His servants the prophets.

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Daniel 2:22
22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him

John 15:15 (King James Version)
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.[/u]1 Corinthians 2:9,10

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Luke 8:10

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

So I dont believe in the God who reveals His will one day and keeps it hidden the next.. sorry. Thats why I disagree...

Why did Paul pray

Colossians 1:9,10

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;


Why does the Word Say...

Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths


Now how can God direct you WITHOUT Him revealing His will to you...

Simple He cant....

Now I did not say that when we are not praying His will we are always praying our own lusts.. but why should I waste my time praying outside the will of God.. thats praying amiss.. all I do there is waste breath...

You see the prayer as asking for someone to help.. I didnt see that.. I saw her ask for God to take a SPECIFIC individual and change THAT persons mind into what SHE thought would be a good idea WITHOUT consulting the Lord first...

sorry I aint touching and agreeing in prayer with that... THATS why I said I would pray that GOD would send help...

SO I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with your post kitty..

We can know the will of God.. He reveals Himself as a GOD who declares His will and makes His will known to His people...

His word gives us scripture that gives us the assurance of that very fact.

Does that mean we will always UNDERSTAND His will.. no...

Does that mean that GOD will tell us every single detail from the outset... no.....

Does that mean once God reveals His will we dont have to exercise faith and trust him... most definitely not.....

But it does mean that GOD will give our faith a direction..

God told me I would be married.. I didnt know who.. or when.. or how.. but he revealed His will... Gid didnt just tell me I would be married. He gave me the detailed WHY I was getting married. What was HIS will in the marriage...

God told me I would have a business.. I know exactly what business I will be in.. I dont know when.. or where the money will come from.. i dont know the location... but I have an extremely detailed business plan and I am working in that same industry right now gaining experience...

God told me I would be in ministry.. I didnt know how.. I wasnt any kind of bible student.. I didnt go to school for it... but I am a deacon and an elder in my church right now...

In fact God told me I would be a deacon TWO years before I actually became a deacon...

God told me 8 years ago that people would see my ability to analyze businesses and business plan and would be willing to pay me for my input... I had totally forgotten about this word ( although I wrote it down )

I am being paid right now as a consultant for a new business opening in Washington DC and I live in NYC> They have already flown me down once, have paid me for my time, and even offered me a job that pays more than TWICE what I am earning now...

Why didnt I take the offer...

because God told me 8 years ago.. They would seek to hire you.. but DONT take the offer....

SO I am sorry... I know God as a God who reveals HIS willl...

The question is do we seek.. do we ask.. are we patient.. or are we afraid of being wrong or presuptuous... and I have been both...

But that has never changed the fact that I KNOW God is one who will reveal His will...

[livinganewlife]

Praying amiss is one thing but praying witchcraft is totally different......

Witchcraft is the art or practices of a witch; sorcery; magic or magical influence; witchery (according to the dictionary)

Amiss is out of the right or proper course, order, or condition; improperly; wrongly; astray (according to the dictionary).....

Praying out of order (amiss) is alright because seriously we don't know always what to pray and the spirit will come in to help us or God reveals his will to us during our prayer time (or conversations with him)..........praying amiss can actually be a learning experiences as it should teach us to search the scripture to see what God's word has to say about a situation before we pray..........

[stillfocused]

Cindy Jacobs..has good book out called Possessing the Gates of the Enemy and she describes witchcraft praying. Witchcraft does occur in the church..it's called manipulation..and other things.

[giantsdodie]

livinganewlife said:

Praying amiss is one thing but praying witchcraft is totally different......

Witchcraft is the art or practices of a witch; sorcery; magic or magical influence; witchery (according to the dictionary)

Amiss is out of the right or proper course, order, or condition; improperly; wrongly; astray (according to the dictionary).....

Praying out of order (amiss) is alright because seriously we don't know always what to pray and the spirit will come in to help us or God reveals his will to us during our prayer time (or conversations with him)..........praying amiss can actually be a learning experiences as it should teach us to search the scripture to see what God's word has to say about a situation before we pray..........

first I must say that I disagree that Praying Amiss is alright. That just is not true. If it was ok to pray amiss then the bible wouldnt make a statement against it.

It is true that praying amiss can be a learning experience. So can a prison jail term. However we should desire that either.

I dont agree with your assessment of the scripture that you are referring to... That scripture is referring to our spiritual language and when we pray in tongues.

Also it seems as if your understanding of witchcraft is incomplete.

Witchcraft is not just people riding brooms and wearing a pointy hat going bippity boppity boo.

Systematic witchcraft ( which occurs all the time ) simply put is categorized as the attempt to utilize domination, manipulation, intimidation, emasculation and subjugation against/of another persons will.

This is also witchcraft and in all honesty it is the most common type of witchcraft practiced and YES saints do it all the time...

[livinganewlife]

giantsdodie said:

livinganewlife said:

Praying amiss is one thing but praying witchcraft is totally different......

Witchcraft is the art or practices of a witch; sorcery; magic or magical influence; witchery (according to the dictionary)

Amiss is out of the right or proper course, order, or condition; improperly; wrongly; astray (according to the dictionary).....

Praying out of order (amiss) is alright because seriously we don't know always what to pray and the spirit will come in to help us or God reveals his will to us during our prayer time (or conversations with him)..........praying amiss can actually be a learning experiences as it should teach us to search the scripture to see what God's word has to say about a situation before we pray..........

first I must say that I disagree that Praying Amiss is alright. That just is not true. If it was ok to pray amiss then the bible wouldnt make a statement against it.

It is true that praying amiss can be a learning experience. So can a prison jail term. However we should desire that either.

I dont agree with your assessment of the scripture that you are referring to... That scripture is referring to our spiritual language and when we pray in tongues.

Also it seems as if your understanding of witchcraft is incomplete.

Witchcraft is not just people riding brooms and wearing a pointy hat going bippity boppity boo.

Systematic witchcraft ( which occurs all the time ) simply put is categorized as the attempt to utilize domination, manipulation, intimidation, emasculation and subjugation against/of another persons will.

This is also witchcraft and in all honesty it is the most common type of witchcraft practiced and YES saints do it all the time...

I didn't say praying amiss is something we should desire however when praying amiss we as saints can turn to the word and get back on track........I am of the opinion that people pray amiss all the time and yet God gives us guidance and direction through the Holy Spirit to lead us back to the correct order in which we should be praying......

now systematic witchcraft and manipulation is totally different from an individual praying amiss to God to change someone's heart who they feel has done them wrong......

Systematic witchcraft is a plan or method designed to manipulate, emasculate etc in order to gain...... in which I agree can and does occur and is incorrect.......

But an individual praying amiss is not d**nation it is praying out of order that has ways of correction........and praying out of order is not necessarily witchcraft it could very well be ignorance (lack of knowledge on how to pray) .....

[giantsdodie]

I didn't say praying amiss is something we should desire

and I dont believe that I actually inferred that you made this statement. I said that is not NOT ok. Our goal should be perfect prayer.. Not... Its ok if I pray off because God will just fix it....

however when praying amiss we as saints can turn to the word and get back on track

Very true however would it not be intelligent and prudent to pray the Word and the will of God from the beginning ?

I am of the opinion that people pray amiss all the time and yet God gives us guidance and direction through the Holy Spirit to lead us back to the correct order in which we should be praying......

I am of the opinion that we can be taught HOW to pray.. which is what JESUS taught the disciples. How to pray effectively, how to pray fervently, how to pray the Will of God, how to pray with Faith and how to pray with purpose are direction....

now systematic witchcraft and manipulation is totally different from an individual praying amiss to God to change someone's heart who they feel has done them wrong......

This sounds like you are describing the situation that you are dealing with and not the situation that i was referring to... and since I am not privy to that situation or what transpired I have no comment on that situation...

Systematic witchcraft is a plan or method designed to manipulate, emasculate etc in order to gain...... in which I agree can and does occur and is incorrect.......

And it can happen even with the best of intentions...

But an individual praying amiss is not d**nation

never said it was.. just said what the Word says.. its wrong...

praying out of order is not necessarily witchcraft it could very well be ignorance (lack of knowledge on how to pray) .....

Nope its not necessarily witchcraft... it could be ignorance.. but the reality is that it CAN be witchcraft and as for me in that would have been witchcraft...

Lets make it simple and plain....

1) I am being asked to pray AGAINST a persons will. The person has said that they DO NOT want to be involved with a particular aspect of ministry...

2) There was NO INDICATION that the Lord had been sought for counsel regarding this situation, therefore there was no clear revelation of the WILL of GOD concerning this matter.

3) I was asked to pray with someone that GOD change that persons mind WITHOUT knowing the counsel of GOD on the matter. That means I am NOT praying THY WILL be done because I dont know HIS will. And I would be praying AGAINST someone elses EXPRESSED will.

THAT would be praying witchcraft.

That is why I said I would pray that GOD would send HELP.. and then whomever GOD chooses to send.. so be it...

I believe we have to move to excelllence !!!!!