Ark of the Covenant

[MsKayLander]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

misskaylander said:

Not with the cross in mind, but with Christ in mind... ;D as Christ leads us to the cross...you don't see the cross in the OT, but you do see Christ throughout... and the veil was only flesh so in order to be complete in Christ we have to get beyond our flesh...

my point is being missed and therefore I will leave it to my lack of effective communication skills.

You know I just like messing with you... I knew what you meant....

[keita]

nina said:

Just a side note:
I think that LALN mentioned to be interested in knowing more in depth about the Ark of the Covenant. Personally, if it's in the Bible, then we should study it...

I think a lot of us would agree with that. I know I do.

As for Dr Bynum and her plans: unless one of us actually knows for his/herself with certainty, how she intends to use the replica, what the exact purpose of the teaching is, what message she intends to deliver, etc... then we are only making assumptions (not trying to offend anyone) except somebody heard from the highest source.

For many, again that would include me, the comments and concerns came from listening to JB herself speaking on the matter during the 2/21 TBN broadcast. Here's a link for anyone who wants to hear it, from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

To me - and again, just what I think - even in a secular court one is innocent until proven guilty.
God allows it, doesn't He? Jesus told us to watch and pray.

Amen.

It's important to quiet our spirit so that we can hear what the Spirit says, beyond the noise and the fanfare.

I agree, especially with your use of the phrase "noise and fanfare". I think it's a legitimate concern that even a true word from a true prophet can indeed and very easily be obscured by extrabiblical pageantry. For me, that pretty much sums up any question or concern I would have about anything JB said with regard to her plans for this conference.

And even at that, if the sister truly believes God told her to put her imitation ark on a horse drawn cart and pull it through the streets of Atlanta, I would just say "GIDDYUP!"...from a real safe distance.

[Beck]

Some folks are just too deep for their own good.. lol

anyway.. I got my ark from ebay and it BETTER come with the ten commandments inside or else im going to report them...

[keita]

LOL!

Btw, I thought this

elderbeck said:

Is Christianity an extension of Judaism?

was an excellent question.

[livinganewlife]

elderbeck said:

Is Christianity an extension of Judaism?

Well of course it is Jesus was Jew, He wasn't a Christian

[Beck]

keita said:

LOL!

Btw, I thought this

elderbeck said:

Is Christianity an extension of Judaism?

was an excellent question.

Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

this should be a good starting point for us to discuss that question...

[Nikkol]

The portion regarding the ark starts around 31:00min.

Edited:
That's scary stuff........

[Giants DO Die ns]

One question. The ark was not supposed to drawn by horses and carriages correct ?

[Nikkol]

I was just about to say that GDD.

But I do recall something previous in reference to another Judaic custom that was seen to the Jews as a mockery........

[keita]

keita said:

Btw, I thought this

elderbeck said:

Is Christianity an extension of Judaism?

was an excellent question.

elderbeck said:

Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

this should be a good starting point for us to discuss that question...

Amen, elder. And I do believe that our doing so has a very valid place in this discussion.

Imho, the Christian experience of God is by divine intention and design radically different than the Jewish. I agree with my rabbi friend that Christianity is (and I would add, should be) much more than "Judaism with Jesus". At the same time, we both recognize the intimate, intricate, intrinsic, and irrefutable relationship between Christianity and Judaism, even while often disagreeing about what that means or looks like. But I do think that the scriptures you've shared would strongly suggest that "replacement theology" with its attendant ignorance and arrogance is definitely not the answer.

Interestingly, and with regard to the topic of this thread, working out the Jewish-Christian connection has been a challenge for the church since its beginnings. Check this out:

"The early believers in Christ continued in the traditions of their Jewish forefathers, worshiping as they had in both the Temple and the Synagogue . To this worship practice they added the distinctly Christian components which were, in fact, transformed Jewish worship practices. These included Baptism, the Eucharist, the Agape meal, and others. Baptism was also present in Jewish religious practice as a personal repentance for sin. Baptism, like the Lord's Supper, was transformed in both meaning and content by our Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism became not only a repentance for one's sins, but being baptized in the name of the Trinity now also assured forgiveness and incorporation into the Body of Christ, the Church. Baptism was the once and for all initiatory rite whereby one received the Holy Spirit and came into the Church.

The early Christians with their transformed understanding of the central elements of Judaism had a practical problem: how to conduct worship? They wanted to carry on their old Jewish worship practices while at the same time incorporating this new meaning and content. They accepted the necessity for continuity with the old, and for the celebration of the new, but could not do both together. The result was doing both in parallel..." (Excerpted from an article here[/color][/url].)

It seems there's nothing new under the sun and I think this article brings an interesting perspective to what I believe is an ongoing challenge for the Christian church regarding its Jewish roots.

[keita]

Giants said:

One question. The ark was not supposed to drawn by horses and carriages correct ?

BINGO!

That's exactly why I (and many others) have repeatedly tried to make clear that any question or concern I (and many others) had was never and not at all about what I (and many others) believe is the inarguable blessing of studying and teaching on the ark of the covenant, tabernacle and any other old testament types and shadows for their revelation and relevance to new covenant believers.

For me, it was and is only about the scripturally questionable pomp and circumstance being planned and the potential distraction and confusion it could (and imho does) bring.

electladynb said:

I do recall something previous in reference to another Judaic custom that was seen to the Jews as a mockery........

I can certainly understand why this particular planned parade would be absolutely appalling to a Jew. And frankly, I think it should give any Bible-knowing-believing Christian at least some pause.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

keita said:

Giants said:

One question. The ark was not supposed to drawn by horses and carriages correct ?

BINGO!

That's exactly why I (and many others) have repeatedly tried to make clear that any question or concern I (and many others) had was never and not at all about what I (and many others) believe is the inarguable blessing of studying the ark of the covenant or tabernacle for their revelation or relevance to new covenant believers.

For me, it was and is only about the scripturally questionable pomp and circumstance being planned and the potential distraction and confusion it could (and imho does) bring.

Finally!

[keita]

LOL!

You already know it just be's that way sometimes:

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth..."

[And Such Were Some Of You]

I believe that because some are so quick to defend the messenger that they fail to see the flaws in the teaching.

Sorry, just had to say it.

[keita]

You ain't told nothing but the truth so...

SAY ON!