Where did this come from ??!!

[And Such Were Some Of You]

krazeeboi said:

I want to make it clear that I have no problem respecting those in leadership. However, I think we should stick to the simple "brother" and "sister," since the Body of Christ is a FAMILY, not a corporation with hierarchies.

I would say, however, that the title of "mother" was borne out of respect for the older women of the congregation, and not in deference to any particular office/function within the church.

ditto

[stillfocused]

This has nothing to do with leadership; yet, it has to do with the way we take biblical terms and use them as standard and a measuring stick to relay how important or unimportant someone is within our local assemblies. Thanks, for the responses they were actually very good and informative. The titles and terms that we use to address each other in many cases separate us from forming true relationships with others who don't have the titles, or are in the forefront. I will back come to post some scriptures that relate to some of the terms I posted orginally.

[giantsdodie]

Personally I am with AT on this one. I dont have any issue with calling the a man pastor or deacon or bishop. To me its no different than calling the policeman on the street officer or the man treating me in the hospital doctor.

[G3]

We (Christ-like Believers) are commanded by the Holy Spirit to recognize and to honor administrative authority. This is a law that even the angels recognize. Even Satan in his fallen state was recognize by the archangel Micheal when in confrontation over the body of Mose. He dare not bring a railing accusation in his own strength and position but said "the Lord rebuke you." Isn't that something, even in Satan fallen state Michael who was faithful recongnized the gift and calling that was irrevocable and honored it.

Let's take step further. The Holy Spirit in His present day ministry was recognized by Yeshua of "speaking not of Himself but He shall glorify Me." In the Holy Spirit present day ministry He yet took the "behind the scene approach" by diverting the attention from Himself back to Yeshua. Is that something even in His "dispensation" He yet display humility inregards to Yeshua.

[stillfocused]

I am reminded of a question my mom asked me.. She went to a funeral of lady and her obituary read....Lady Elect __________..

And she wanted to know what it meant..

[And Such Were Some Of You]

stillfocused said:

I am reminded of a question my mom asked me.. She went to a funeral of lady and her obituary read....Lady Elect __________..

And she wanted to know what it meant..

ROFL, so do I!

[krazeeboi]

giantsdodie said:

Personally I am with AT on this one. I dont have any issue with calling the a man pastor or deacon or bishop. To me its no different than calling the policeman on the street officer or the man treating me in the hospital doctor.

The question isn't about whether we have a problem recognizing people's function or office. I have no problem saying "Pastor ______" or "Bishop _______" or "Evangelist ________." The question is, is this biblical? Is this how the early church operated? Everything that I've read indicates that the answer is flat out no.

[stillfocused]

Krazeeboi..that was the question. Is it biblical and alot of it isn't. I know that the term lady elect is in the Bible..yet, I do not believe it was used in the context that we see it used now.
Evangelist is in the Bible; yet, those who walked in the office of the evangelist..were found doing the work of evangelism. Say I am called Evangelist Toni; yet, I have not spoken a work to encourage or challenge anyone through the spokem Word of Go in 5 years; what's the purpose of the titles if that's all they are ? ASWSOY...my Mom was serious and since I had never heard that one before and I know it must have been strange for her since she is over 65 yrs. old.

[anointedteacher]

[krazeeboi]

anointedteacher said:

How did the disciples addressed Jesus? Lord, Master, etc..... They were very much into titles.... even the Pharisee, did not address Jesus by his name.

Yes, but there are few important distinctions here:

1) It's JESUS we're talking about; He's in a class all by Himself. He's God in the flesh.

2) What we have come to use as titles in the Church are descriptions of our functions within the Body; however, Jesus is in and of Himself "Lord," "Master," "Ruler," etc. The angels announced at His birth that He is "Christ the LORD." This is essentially a part of His person. He was born Lord, is now Lord, and will forever be Lord. But with us, what we have come to use as titles are very temporary in nature.

3) A description doesn't necessarily equal a prescription. In other words, what we see being done in scripture doesn't necessarily mean that's the way it ought to be done. It may or it may not; however, that needs to be determined with other criteria.

In our days... we don't use Master or Lord Rabbi, Father, etc. in the Christian church, we uses a different titles.... Pastor, Apostle, prophet Evangelist, Elder and Bishop.....

Yes we do, and that's the question: why have we made these legitimate FUNCTIONS into titles, thus creating a false hierarchy in the church? This is not to say that there are not distinctions among the functions and that a different type of authority may be invested in each function however.

Because everything is not recorded in detail in the Bible.... you can study the history of the Jewish temple and how they address leaderships during the time of Jesus. This willl you an ideal how they addressed each other.... although, we do not live in the days of the early church. In the Book of Acts the Church was at an infant stages... all they knew was the jewish customer and have not develop their own. The apostles were doing everything from serving table to preaching the Gospel. When problem arise in the church, they delegated holy men to serve and overseek those areas. As a result the Word increased. When they were nolonger allowed to minister in the temples, they met in houses.... that don't mean we shouldn't meet in a building.... They had to meet in houses because they had no other choice, they were being presecuted.

Sure everything isn't recorded in the Bible; this isn't in question. But I don't think we should make something that we deem so important today into hard and fast rules in the absence of such a practice in scripture.

The question, is titles Biblical? or the title you listed is Biblical? Well,... all of them are listed in the Bible.... the five administration gift (fivefold ministry) Jesus gave to the church.... and the pastors and apostles was instructed to ordain Bishops, Elders and Deacon/ess in the church... How should we address them in a professional way.....

But they are not listed as titles in scripture; they are descriptive of a person's function within the Body, but we've MADE them into titles--which they were never intended to be.

This is what I believe..... in Church, on the job, where ever I go... I believe in address people in a professional way.... In public... I address everybody Mr., Mrs., Ms..... the police as officer, at work I address the owner Dr. at work.... Pastor or Elder when I visit his church, and his wife as Dr. or Minister.... never by just their first name. I believe in keeping a professional relationship in church... and address everybody properly.

I take note of the fact that you used the word "professional." I think this is evidence of one of the biggest misconceptions in the church today: we've run the Church as a corporation. When we start comparing the church with secular organizations, we've lost sight of the purpose of the Church in the world. Jesus said,

"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all." (Mark 10:42-44)

Who do the Gentiles represent? The world system. Jesus explicitly said SO SHALL IT NOT BE AMONG YOU. If that isn't clear enough, Jesus actually frowned upon the use of titles:

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." (Matthew 23:9-10)

Understand that there is an overarching principle being demonstrated here. Jesus is using specific titles here to demonstrate his point, so we can't say "Well we don't call anyone 'Rabbi,' 'Father,' or 'Master' so we're OK." In principle, we're doing the same thing with the hierarchical use of titles in the Church.

But notice what he DID say: ALL YE ARE BRETHREN. In other words, this isn't a corporation, it isn't an organization; it's a FAMILY. So I'm not saying just throw around first names all willy nilly, but "brother" or "sister" should be enough. Even then, it should be recognized that there's a difference between saying, "Hello elder, how are you?" and "I went to go see Elder Smith today." The first is simply recognizing him by his function within the body; the second is actually making the function into a title. There is indeed a difference. In the same way, Paul always identifies himself as "Paul, an apostle" and not "Apostle Paul."

[keita]

TEACH!!!

Church vs Congregation/Assembly...

System vs Body...

Institution vs Organism...

World vs Kingdom...

Death vs Life...

Law vs Love

Darkness vs LIGHT...

Hey! Is your name "Paul"? LOL!

[krazeeboi]

I feel like Paul right about now...LOL. But seriously, it really disturbs me how we've lost sight of the purpose of the Church in the world. We think we're a corporation. We think we're the unofficial (or maybe even official) arm of some political party. We think we're a social club.

Well, I've got news for you.

WE'RE NOT.[/size][/color]

[livinganewlife]

It is so funny how most people want to be titled everything but what we need to be called and that is SERVANT......

You never see SERVANT on a business card it is always Prophet something (function) Evangelsit something (function) or something......

God Bless

Your SERVANT in Christ....... at the end all I the Lord to say is "Well Done thy Good and Faithful SERVANT"

[Jasmine]

Honestly titles are not the problem.
I believe that the problem is people are so title hungry, because they are power hungry. Really the issue does stem from Catholism, however, this is still a African American Issue.

I have been to several white churches, where they do address each other by brother or sister, and in most cases they are on first name basis.

African Americans, use titles against one another to make the other individual feel as if, they are insignificant, or My gift if better than your gift. or, you aint reached my level yet.

[Nikkol]

I think that part has to do with the "slavery mentality"... Even when we think about saying "yes ma'am/no ma'am/ yes sir/no sir". This was very much done during this time in which that was seen as how a "colored person" showed respect. I think that has continues in that we (or some of us) have that same mentality in the church by which w/o the title it is possible to be disrespected. So, in that way (and the fact that there is some that will still show respect for a "title") I understand why people still use titles in the African Amercian church (in particular).