women preachers

[Jasmine]

ATT said:

Ministers, over all.... pastor, prophet/ess, Apostle, Evangelist, Teacher, Deacon/ess, Bishop, Elder, Missionary, Musician, Psalmist etc. He did not asked for specific Title.... He said Licensed Minister, so if women can be a Missionary, Muscian and Psalmist in that denomination.... They were included. The Leader should've known you don't just let anybody on your pulpit male and female.... He should have asked them to stand and openly welcome them.

Most people think those churches have grown out of that mind set, especially the pants issue and fellowship with other believers, without being so religious and judgmental.

I think what was so offensive, was that the first lady openly embarass and rebuke the women ministers in front of the congregation. Why couldn't she just pass a note to them asking them to sit with her in the front seats. They may have felt honor to sit with the first lady and would have taken it personal.

ATT

Well you have to understand that in Pentecostal Churches "MINISTER" refers to MEN only. So when a preachers says all licensed ministers are welcomed in the pulpit the women know that they are not referring to them. If you are a psalmist or musician, that does not mean you are a licensed minister. Unless you have went before the Licensing board and obtained your license to be a minister or missionary.


Now a visiting church may not know this, however I can't say that they are not Ignorant to this as well. I heard from some of my friends who attend a different denomination, prepare their choir or church members for upcoming functions at a different church. They will say things like " Ya'll know we are going to a COGIC church so don't step into that house, with pants on".

Your going into somebody else congregation, respect the house, whether or not you agree with it or not.

If you allow your children to jump up and down on your furniture, when you get to my house, uhh No its not okay, they cannot jump up and down on my furniture.

Now I do still agree that because he made the invitation for all "licensed ministers" to come, and because this visiting church may not have been aware of that church's standards, then he should have allowed them...instead of allowing such a big stink to take place.

However from this point on, he should make it known that this is the standards within this house, women are not allowed in the pulpit. But we have reserved a special section for all women who hold a ministerial licenses

[Nikkol]

No, a visiting Pastor should not know the "standards" of the church he has been invited to speak at. It is the responsibility of the Pastor hosting that event to accept and embrace all who walk through the doors of the church he Pastors; along with his congregation.

I know a lot of churches which allow for "alternate lifestyles would really enjoy that statement. I remember growing up and in order to visit one of my friends, I had to take off my sneakers/shoes before I could go in because of their new carpeting. This was something I was told before I went so that I wouldn't be surprised when I got there. Since we don't know the whole story, it could be possible that the pastor already knew but just didn't provide that information to his congregation. (additionally, as a woman and knowing that not every ministry allows for women in the pulpit, I would've been hesitatn anyways to go up as to not want to offend those of that ministry)

I am quite sure as these women honored the request of the Pastor and his wife without saying a word they discerned what the most urgent need of this congregation was without saying a word or reacting in a negative way. This reminds me of what God told Samuel when he was going to anoint Eliab as the next King...I Samuel 16:7 But, the Lord said to Samuel " Do not consider his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. " The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but, the Lord looks at the heart."

There is the key. Yes, man does look at the outward appearance. (thinking about it now, I don't think that it stated in that scripture that it is wrong to look at the outward appearance for this is the same reason why we should be watchful of our actions because as living epistles, we want to show Christ).

Somebody may have missed the blessing, turnaround, miracle they were waiting for or worse yet, salvation because a handful of people hardened their hearts to receive others who were dressed differently than the way they were accustomized to and acted in a matter that was not pleasing to God. And just maybe the Lord told those women to wear those pants that day to test the hearts of that people to see if they were ready receive the harvest..that stands ready to walk through their doors.

That actually goes against scripture. Just like when dealing with meat, we have to understand that not everyone eats it and it doesn't mean that it's wrong to eat meat. But if I know that meat will offend my brother, I won't eat it in front of him. It has nothing to do with hardening hearts but moreso that different churches have different standards. Additionally, we know that if someone really wants something, they'll do whatever it takes to get it. If someone really wants Christ, they'll find Him for he that seeketh will find.

Everybody coming through the doors of our Churches have not been " churched" therefore standards, doctrines, how to dress, what to wear and not wear will not be important to them..the only thing of importance to them will be the truth that will be revealed to them through the intimacy they will experience through relationship with Jesus Christ ..and while we sit offended because somebody wore pants, had on red lipstick, and the list could go on..those will be very people he uses to flip this country upside down because nothing will matter to them except what he requires of them.

I use to think that was as well...... but what I am noticing that those from the outside are actually looking for something different. If we think about it, we are loosing many people (at least in Philly) to the NOI. They become Muslim, cover up have great levels of discipline. And when talking with some people, what drew them to it was the discipline... the standards.

Additionally, there are different standards... the standards for the saved will be different from standards of the unsaved and standards from one ministry may differ from standards from another. However, doctrine is what should be consistent throughout.

I glad that Pastor did not walk; yet, chose to exemplify the love of Christ by speaking and assisting this fellowship with raising $10,000; that is so awesome !! I say it again ..the standard set any denomination are not necessarily the standards of God..yet, just the mere rules and dictates of set by man.

It is good that he still ministered. The problem comes in when deciding if something is a standard that God set or not. That is something that I can't tell because I don't know how God is working through that ministry. However, I do know that just like some individuals have specific standards, ministries have specific standards as well.

BTW: Are there any pastors on the Board?

[Grace]

Ministers, over all.... pastor, prophet/ess, Apostle, Evangelist, Teacher, Deacon/ess, Bishop, Elder, Missionary, Musician, Psalmist etc. He did not asked for specific Title.... He said Licensed Minister, so if women can be a Missionary, Muscian and Psalmist in that denomination.... They were included. The Leader should've known you don't just let anybody on your pulpit male and female.... He should have asked them to stand and openly welcome them.

Most people think those churches have grown out of that mind set, especially the pants issue and fellowship with other believers, without being so religious and judgmental.

I think what was so offensive, was that the first lady openly embarass and rebuke the women ministers in front of the congregation. Why couldn't she just pass a note to them asking them to sit with her in the front seats. They may have felt honor to sit with the first lady and would have taken it personal.

I agree with ATT it was wrong for the Pastor's wife to have said anything, especially if the Pastor did not correct the visitors. As woman who is a licensed minister I would have been offended. I agree that an open invitiation should not have necissarily been made, or maybe it should have been more specific.

I know at our church when we go out to visit other churhces, my Bishop lets us know if its atraditional church or what the denomination will be. He will normally tell us to dress in clergy attire (rabbats/collars) or church attire, that way no oneis offended if we are wearing pants. Its sad that people get so caught in the legalism of pants. At the end of the night God is not concerned with your pants. When will we grow and learn that pants have no bearing on salvation.

[jasmine nsi]

Pentecostal churches/denominations know that pants don't have any bearing on salvation.

[ATT]

jasmine said:

ATT said:

Ministers, over all.... pastor, prophet/ess, Apostle, Evangelist, Teacher, Deacon/ess, Bishop, Elder, Missionary, Musician, Psalmist etc. He did not asked for specific Title.... He said Licensed Minister, so if women can be a Missionary, Musician and Psalmist in that denomination.... They were included. The Leader should've known you don't just let anybody on your pulpit male and female.... He should have asked them to stand and openly welcome them.

Most people think those churches have grown out of that mind set, especially the pants issue and fellowship with other believers, without being so religious and judgmental.

I think what was so offensive, was that the first lady openly embarrass and rebuke the women ministers in front of the congregation. Why couldn't she just pass a note to them asking them to sit with her in the front seats. They may have felt honor to sit with the first lady and would have taken it personal.

ATT

Well you have to understand that in Pentecostal Churches "MINISTER" refers to MEN only. So when a preachers says all licensed ministers are welcomed in the pulpit the women know that they are not referring to them. If you are a psalmist or musician, that does not mean you are a licensed minister. Unless you have went before the Licensing board and obtained your license to be a minister or missionary.


Now a visiting church may not know this, however I can't say that they are not Ignorant to this as well. I heard from some of my friends who attend a different denomination, prepare their choir or church members for upcoming functions at a different church. They will say things like " Ya'll know we are going to a COGIC church so don't step into that house, with pants on".

Your going into somebody else congregation, respect the house, whether or not you agree with it or not.

If you allow your children to jump up and down on your furniture, when you get to my house, uhh No its not okay, they cannot jump up and down on my furniture.

Now I do still agree that because he made the invitation for all "licensed ministers" to come, and because this visiting church may not have been aware of that church's standards, then he should have allowed them...instead of allowing such a big stink to take place.

However from this point on, he should make it known that this is the standards within this house, women are not allowed in the pulpit. But we have reserved a special section for all women who hold a ministerial licenses

Jasmine, That is completely incorrect. I'm been in a Pentecost churches for 23 years. They have Women, Apostles, Prophetess, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, Deaconess, Elders, Bishop. Missionaries and they consider Musicians, and Psalmist as Minister. They don't have a hang up on pant.... Most of them where pant and some minister in nice pantsuit sometime. This don't make them less holy, righteous or anointed, than those churches that have those hang up.

I know a lot of churches which allow for "alternate lifestyles would really enjoy that statement. I remember growing up and in order to visit one of my friends, I had to take off my sneakers/shoes before I could go in because of their new carpeting. This was something I was told before I went so that I wouldn't be surprised when I got there. Since we don't know the whole story, it could be possible that the pastor already knew but just didn't provide that information to his congregation. (additionally, as a woman and knowing that not every ministry allows for women in the pulpit, I would've been hesitatn anyways to go up as to not want to offend those of that ministry)

IT IS CALLED RUDE AND IGNORANT!!! The Book of James call it SIN.... Having respect of person. He says you become judges of evil thoughts. There is also a lack of Love in operation.

There is the key. Yes, man does look at the outward appearance. (thinking about it now, I don't think that it stated in that scripture that it is wrong to look at the outward appearance for this is the same reason why we should be watchful of our actions because as living epistles, we want to show Christ).

Read James Chapter Two

That actually goes against scripture. Just like when dealing with meat, we have to understand that not everyone eats it and it doesn't mean that it's wrong to eat meat. But if I know that meat will offend my brother, I won't eat it in front of him. It has nothing to do with hardening hearts but moreso that different churches have different standards. Additionally, we know that if someone really wants something, they'll do whatever it takes to get it. If someone really wants Christ, they'll find Him for he that seeketh will find.

These women were guest, couldn't they have tolerated these women instead of rebuking and embarrassing them in front of the congregation.... The women did not know they were hook on those doctrines, they probably thought they have grown out of those mine set.

I use to think that was as well...... but what I am noticing that those from the outside are actually looking for something different. If we think about it, we are loosing many people (at least in Philly) to the NOI. They become Muslim, cover up have great levels of discipline. And when talking with some people, what drew them to it was the discipline... the standards.

Additionally, there are different standards... the standards for the saved will be different from standards of the unsaved and standards from one ministry may differ from standards from another. However, doctrine is what should be consistent throughout.

Standard of saved should not be based on male vs female, dress vs pant, it should be based on living holy and right before God and that can be done by a woman wearing pant.

[lanl ns]

ATT said:

jasmine said:

Well you have to understand that in Pentecostal Churches "MINISTER" refers to MEN only. So when a preachers says all licensed ministers are welcomed in the pulpit the women know that they are not referring to them. If you are a psalmist or musician, that does not mean you are a licensed minister. Unless you have went before the Licensing board and obtained your license to be a minister or missionary.

Jasmine, That is completely incorrect. I'm been in a Pentecost churches for 23 years. They have Women, Apostles, Prophetess, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, Deaconess, Elders, Bishop. Missionaries and they consider Musicians, and Psalmist as Minister. They don't have a hang up on pant.... Most of them where pant and some minister in nice pantsuit sometime. This don't make them less holy, righteous or anointed, than those churches that have those hang up.

I don't know what Pentecostal church you have been attending because it is a known fact that in most Pentecostal Churches across the country(black and white pentecostal churches) that women, musicians, and psalmists are not considered ministers and they do not wear pants.

There is a difference in Charismatic churches were Pentecost practices are experienced, but as for rules of Pentecost churches the norm is Women do not wear pants and do not enter the pulpit.

[ATT]

Full Gospel churches are consider Pentecostal, and they accept women preachers and don't have a problem with pant.

You may only attend those churches that have that mind set. There are even women ministers and Pastors in the COGIC now. Most of these churches I have attended have women ministers and many are leaded by women pastor, married and single women. These are apostolic and prophetic ministries. they operates to me on a more matural level, they deal more with the Word, spiritual warfare, true holiness, prophecies and the apostolic anointing. They are not into man made doctrines.

ATT

[lanl ns]

The Full Gospel movement is relatively new and is not what one would consider a "standard" Pentecostal Church as the Full Gospel movement originated from the Baptist church and believed in the Pentecost worship style but did not embrace the doctrine of Pentecostal churches.

I understand Pentecost and the background of the Pentecostal movement, just because a church congregation shouts, dance, speak in tongues and "worship" as Pentecostals; does not make them a Pentecostal church.

[jasmine nsi]

ATT said:

jasmine said:

Well you have to understand that in Pentecostal Churches "MINISTER" refers to MEN only. So when a preachers says all licensed ministers are welcomed in the pulpit the women know that they are not referring to them. If you are a psalmist or musician, that does not mean you are a licensed minister. Unless you have went before the Licensing board and obtained your license to be a minister or missionary.


Now a visiting church may not know this, however I can't say that they are not Ignorant to this as well. I heard from some of my friends who attend a different denomination, prepare their choir or church members for upcoming functions at a different church. They will say things like " Ya'll know we are going to a COGIC church so don't step into that house, with pants on".

Your going into somebody else congregation, respect the house, whether or not you agree with it or not.

If you allow your children to jump up and down on your furniture, when you get to my house, uhh No its not okay, they cannot jump up and down on my furniture.

Now I do still agree that because he made the invitation for all "licensed ministers" to come, and because this visiting church may not have been aware of that church's standards, then he should have allowed them...instead of allowing such a big stink to take place.

However from this point on, he should make it known that this is the standards within this house, women are not allowed in the pulpit. But we have reserved a special section for all women who hold a ministerial licenses

Jasmine, That is completely incorrect. I'm been in a Pentecost churches for 23 years. They have Women, Apostles, Prophetess, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, Deaconess, Elders, Bishop. Missionaries and they consider Musicians, and Psalmist as Minister. They don't have a hang up on pant.... Most of them where pant and some minister in nice pantsuit sometime. This don't make them less holy, righteous or anointed, than those churches that have those hang up.



IT IS CALLED RUDE AND IGNORANT!!! The Book of James call it SIN.... Having respect of person. He says you become judges of evil thoughts. There is also a lack of Love in operation.



Read James Chapter Two



These women were guest, couldn't they have tolerated these women instead of rebuking and embarrassing them in front of the congregation.... The women did not know they were hook on those doctrines, they probably thought they have grown out of those mine set.

I use to think that was as well...... but what I am noticing that those from the outside are actually looking for something different. If we think about it, we are loosing many people (at least in Philly) to the NOI. They become Muslim, cover up have great levels of discipline. And when talking with some people, what drew them to it was the discipline... the standards.

Additionally, there are different standards... the standards for the saved will be different from standards of the unsaved and standards from one ministry may differ from standards from another. However, doctrine is what should be consistent throughout.

Standard of saved should not be based on male vs female, dress vs pant, it should be based on living holy and right before God and that can be done by a woman wearing pant.

I have no idea on who other quotes you were commenting on, but as LANL stated, please gather an understanding of Pentecostal Churches. These are the churches who were normally referred to as "Holy Rollers", or Holiness churches.

Everybody knows that Most apostolic, and cogic churches were those often referred to as holy rollers. These are the churches that do not address women as ministers.

A deacon..is not a minister. a Deaconess is not a minister. These are individuals appointed by the pastor.

The minister of music, is often referred to the choir director, the organist, or whom ever has authority over that music department at the church.

Ministers, Missionaries, Elders, Evangelists, are individuals who have obtain their license through the State board.

Now there are some cogic churches, which are taking on the practice and ordaining women as ministers and elders, but the vast majority of them are not.

This really isn't a pants issue..wearing pants can be argued down, remember the JBM post about women wearing pants. It can be proven that women did not wear pants until a certain time frame, and those who did wear pants, there was nothing femine about the look at all.

however this is about a church who made an open invitation for all licensed ministers to come into the pulpit. And when those licensed ministers began approaching as instructed were turned away, because first and foremost...they were women, and secondly because they were wearing pants.

[ATT]

I was partily raised in the COGIC, saved in a Non denominational Church on a college campus, and Iembraced pentecostal teaching on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Moved from NJ to FL and attended Assembly of God Church for a fews years. Than I went a prophetic church, that teaches more of the meat of the Gospel and not "the no pant" and" hair covering" doctrine, but the WORD of God. We had visit many Pentecostal churches and many churches have fellowshipped with us, yes, even the COGIC. I had a woman Pastor and have a single woman Apostle, one of the Head of the COGIC didn't have a problem with women preaching and didn't turned up his nose at a few women in pant.

ATT

[HezSweet nsi]

Spent quite a bit of time in an Apostolic church who were active members in the PAW (Pentecostal Assemblies of the World). According to my old pastor, the PAW was one of the first organizations to recognize women as ministers back in the day. You're given the title of evangelist. And the PAW even ordains womens as pastors.

I believe the apostolic church (PAW) has always embraced women ministers. Now what little I know about COGIC churches, I think you could be called a missionary.

My mom left her baptist church to join a pentecostal church because her pastor told her there was no way she was called to preach and they still hold that belief to this day.

Every pentecostal/apostolic church I have ever encountered have embraced their women ministers.

Now pants are another story.

[jasmine nsi]

The title minister holds many meanings.

But in the cogic a "minister" is a brother who has recieved his ministerial license. His next elevation would be "Elder", in which he would go before the board to receive another license.

Women in the COGIC fall into 3 category- Aspiring missionary, Deaconess Missionary, Evangelist Missionary.- The deaconess Missionary and Evangelist Missionary are licensed.

our churches don't have a problem embracing women as "teachers" of the gospel. We are not referred to as preachers, or ministers.

And that is perfectly fine for those of us who are licensed by these organizations. I used to attend an apostolic holiness church ( North park Apostolic church), before I started attending a cogic church, and it was operated the exact same way.

And trust me..We women do not have a problem with that. We dont have to hold the title "minister" because essential, we all our ministers.

I for one to not need a title to do what GOD has called me to do. While having the license is nice, as it enables me to be able to speak at local assemblies, its not everything. I actually could care less about speaking at somebody's church. lol

[lanl ns]

HezSweet said:

Spent quite a bit of time in an Apostolic church who were active members in the PAW (Pentecostal Assemblies of the World). According to my old pastor, the PAW was one of the first organizations to recognize women as ministers back in the day. You're given the title of evangelist. And the PAW even ordains womens as pastors.

Hez Sweet you are correct women "back in the day" could only be Evangelist and were considered ministers, however it was out of place for a woman to sit in the pulpit unless she was conducting the revival or participating on the program somewhere.

It was surely "out of place" in a Pentecostal church for a woman Evangelist to walk up to the pulpit just because an invitation was extended to ministers.

And at that women did not sit with the men, because most pulpit were divided women on one side and men on the other side.

[HezSweet nsi]

Now LANLs has got me to thinking...did I ever see women ministers (evangelists) take the pulpit...

hmmmmm....

Our assistant pastor was a woman and she was always in the pulpit...

What I do recall is most ministers - male and female - both sitting out in the congregation unless they were preaching that particular service.

That seperation of the sexes altogether may predate me just a little bit.

[krazeeboi]

That's why the church I will pastor someday won't have any seats on the pulpit. EVERYBODY will be sitting in the congregation, as I will not affirm the false clergy/laity distinction we have inherited from Catholicism gone wrong.