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Post by Nikkol on Feb 22, 2006 12:49:46 GMT -5
I believe that Elder Beck has showed in the word where it was recorded..............
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Post by elderbeck NSI on Feb 22, 2006 12:55:32 GMT -5
We are taught in scripture to train up our children.... that's the difference. Typically this would be as long as they lived at home. If I'm a single parent and my sons who live under my roof are young men... You mean I should not have authority over them and let them run my house? I have to disagree with your statement.... I'm an apartment manager and have maintenance workers (men) working under me, do that mean I am in sin because I have authority over them. Please explain ATT When you say we, do you mean women or parents? |
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Post by Giants DO Die ns on Feb 22, 2006 13:06:09 GMT -5
First off we have to understand the context in which these scriptures were written. Firstly the scripture does not say that a pastor needs to be married. Pastor is a five fold ministry gift or anointing given my the Lord Jesus Christ, not a title. There are no qualifications except other than to be appointed by JESUS. The " qualification " as it were is for the Office of the Bishop ( not an anointing but appointed my men ).
Secondly the scripture says that the wome should not USURP authority. The Word usurp means to seize and hold (the power or rights of another, for example) by force and without legal authority.
Now what does that have to do with Jesus GIVING someone the authority to pastor. Nothing at all.
The Word of God shows women who had positions of authority in the church. Junais who is listed among the address to the Apostles, Gaius who apparently an elder in the church mentioned in III John, and women like Priscilla who was one of Paul's teachers.
So basically what we have had is mens misinterpretation of scripture.
If all these women who are pastors were out of order and out of the will of God exactly how is the ministry flowing and functioning with the gifts of the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit when the Spirit obviously would not be involved if it was out of the will of God.
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Post by elderbeck NSI on Feb 22, 2006 13:17:01 GMT -5
First off we have to understand the context in which these scriptures were written. Firstly the scripture does not say that a pastor needs to be married. Pastor is a five fold ministry gift or anointing given my the Lord Jesus Christ, not a title. There are no qualifications except other than to be appointed by JESUS. The " qualification " as it were is for the Office of the Bishop ( not an anointing but appointed my men ). Secondly the scripture says that the wome should not USURP authority. The Word usurp means to seize and hold (the power or rights of another, for example) by force and without legal authority. Now what does that have to do with Jesus GIVING someone the authority to pastor. Nothing at all. The Word of God shows women who had positions of authority in the church. Junais who is listed among the address to the Apostles, Gaius who apparently an elder in the church mentioned in III John, and women like Priscilla who was one of Paul's teachers. So basically what we have had is mens misinterpretation of scripture. If all these women who are pastors were out of order and out of the will of God exactly how is the ministry flowing and functioning with the gifts of the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit when the Spirit obviously would not be involved if it was out of the will of God. Victory bro GDD, could you provide me the scriptures with those women listed...thanks...(Im being lazy) LOL |
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Post by Nikkol on Feb 22, 2006 13:49:57 GMT -5
Here's the scripture regarding Junia:
Ro 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
However, I don't believe that this scripture is saying that they are apostles but rather are known (or well known) by the apostles.
Edited:
The other part is based on some other scriptures in reference to pastor/overseer
Ac 20:28 -
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Here we see the job of the overseer as given to the elders. Their role was to feed the flock (church of God).
Here in the OT, we see how the pastors also were to take care of the flock:
Jer 23:2 -
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Additionally, according to the scriptures in reference to bishop, his role is also in reference to being able to rule the house of God.
1 tim 3:4-5
3:4
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
3:5
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
I also thought the definition for pastor was interesting:
1. a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
a. in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2. metaph.
a. the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
1. of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2. of kings and princes
And overseer:
1. an overseer
a. a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
b. the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church
And bishop:
1. investigation, inspection, visitation
a. that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
b. oversight
1. overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
2. the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
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Post by Jasmine nsi on Feb 22, 2006 15:58:30 GMT -5
I dont dispute anything that any one has said. My question was in looking at the scriptures is it biblical? If we look at the scriptures and continue with the interpretation as given then women should have no authority over adult men period. That means even with the "covering" this particular scripture is being violated. Because the scripture says "no men". Now we know all through out the bible women held authoritive roles over men. Deborah was a judge and judged men. Clearly thats an authoritive role.
So that cancels out that women cannot have authority over men. Right?
Now stay with me...the interpretations of this scripture is wrong and has been wrong. Does it really apply to "men" & "woman"? Or does the actually terminology speak of "husband" & "wife"?
Now lets change it:
Doesn't the latter make more sense. SO this scripture appplies to a husband and wife..not specifically "man" and woman"
Now, I don't have a yes or no answer to this question. I can only lay out both sides of the issue, and allow the spirit to give interpretation of what is acurate. I said that I am not a woman pastor basher, and will be the first to say "Girl, DO your thang"! So obviously, I do have an understanding that women can be pastors.
But, if the church continues to interpret the scriptures as women not being able to teach or usurp authority over men period, then even the most anointed woman pastor, with her head covering is still in violation of the scripture according to the interpretation, A lay woman who teaches any type of biblical session, is in violation because it says "women should not teach or usurp authority over no man". Its all about the context and how we perceive what is being said..thats why many churches today still have issues with this scripture.
Either way.. unless we interpret husband and wife with "man" and "woman" , women will always be considered in most eyes to violate this scripture, because she really should not "teach or usurp authority over no man.
ATT,
You are right ATT so I do clear up my statement regarding that..Pastoring a congregation is a gift, because God has chosen and called you to Pastor his sheep. I find it difficult to believe that anybody who accepted a their call..really said..I wanted to do that all along. I know I didnt, and many people continue to Run from it today.
But we should understand that there is a difference between gifts and the call.
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Post by ATT on Feb 22, 2006 17:09:32 GMT -5
You can have the Gift of Prophecy, but not called to be a Prophet.... The Prophet is the Gift Jesus gave to the church and they are called and appointed by Him. A pastor is a Gift Jesus gave to the church and they are called and appointed by Him and all of the ascension gifts. The Gift of the Holy Spirit is not the person, but the gift that dwell in the Spirit Filled believers. So it is really not up to man to decided who should or should not be a pastor , because Jesus have already made the decision before some of these gifts were born.... A former friend said when she was pregnant with her son, the Lord told her that he is a prophet and to name him Isaiah. He was anointed and appoint at conception. Sadly she aborted the child, and told her husband what the Lord told her and what she did. He was so hurt, to the point he almost took her out and begin to abuse her. I believe they are divorced. This baby was called from his mother womb.... I believe pastors can be called before conception or from the womb. When to walk in that calling is a different story.... Cause some need to be trained, broken, saved and delivered from self   ATT |
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Post by krazeeboi on Feb 23, 2006 2:52:42 GMT -5
My answer:
Can they? Yes.
Should they? No.
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Post by ElderBeck NSI on Feb 23, 2006 5:42:50 GMT -5
My answer: Can they? Yes. Should they? No. So they shouldn't... if they shouldnt then they can't do it effectively? I mean except the Lord build the house...right??? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Feb 24, 2006 0:58:04 GMT -5
^I'm sure there are plenty of things that you and I knew that we shouldn't have done that we did rather well.  |
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Post by elderbeck NSI on Feb 24, 2006 7:25:36 GMT -5
^I'm sure there are plenty of things that you and I knew that we shouldn't have done that we did rather well. shhhhh!! LOL JK ;D |
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Post by ATT on Feb 24, 2006 8:06:43 GMT -5
^I'm sure there are plenty of things that you and I knew that we shouldn't have done that we did rather well. Under God's Annointing with signs and wonders following and with the Fruit of the Spiritual? Would there be any Fruit in doing something in the ministry that we don't suppose to be doing? Would there be any Power of the Holy Spirit operating in being out of order. Would God use a person and allow His Anointing to flow through days after days; weeks after weeks; months after months; years after Years.... on regular basis? Will He multiply them and raise them up? Phillip four daughters were prophetess. What do prophetess do? PROPHESY..... What prophesy mean? PREACH.... so Phillip four daughter were preachers!  ATT |
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Feb 24, 2006 11:22:41 GMT -5
^I'm sure there are plenty of things that you and I knew that we shouldn't have done that we did rather well. Under God's Annointing with signs and wonders following and with the Fruit of the Spiritual? Would there be any Fruit in doing something in the ministry that we don't suppose to be doing? Would there be any Power of the Holy Spirit operating in being out of order. Would God use a person and allow His Anointing to flow through days after days; weeks after weeks; months after months; years after Years.... on regular basis? Will He multiply them and raise them up? Phillip four daughters were prophetess. What do prophetess do? PROPHESY..... What prophesy mean? PREACH.... so Phillip four daughter were preachers! ATT Side Note: Sis. ATT, these BROTHERS were not talking ministry in what you quoted. LOL LOL LOL Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled program! |
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Post by ATT on Feb 24, 2006 11:44:49 GMT -5
I know what they were talking about.... and it was not with the regular program... THANK YOU
What I posted go with both... What they are applying from the world point of view in living in sin and being good at it and from the original post.
ATT
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Feb 24, 2006 13:05:58 GMT -5
ATT, it was a joke, calm down! |
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