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Post by MsKayLander on Aug 1, 2006 13:47:41 GMT -5
BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Krazeeboi... that is considered pre-cursing....  If you were offended sister, I beg your pardon. No, I'm just teasing... I was only joking with you... you know, a little levity... |
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Post by keita on Aug 1, 2006 13:54:14 GMT -5
Keita, I wouldn't ecourage the promulgation of false doctrine if I were you. Blood will be on your hands as well. There comes a time to separate truth from error, and this is it. My dear brother in Christ, It is precisely because I believe that you are my brother in Christ that I refuse to see or hear anything in those words other than what I believe to be your genuine love and concern for me as your sister in Christ. Now, even if I'm wrong about that, it doesn't matter to me because I am fully persuaded that our Father has more than enough love and concern for the both of us... and everybody else. Please know that because I have also come to know and esteem you as a man of God, I take a sharp rebuke from you quite seriously and without offense. So, I carefully and prayerfully examined my heart and reviewed my posts to this thread ( which, believe me, I also carefully and prayerfully posted), to see if there might be some basis for the correction you were offering that I might indeed need to receive. Here are my posts: Grace and Peace, Saints! For me that portion of scripture also did and does much more than that. In fact, in terms of my "inherited theology", it actually raised as many questions as it answered. For example, consider v.14: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire..." Maybe it was me, but God simply allowing me to discover that "hell" and "the lake of fire" could not be and were not synonyms was MAJOR for me. So is the fact that for a very long time, and like so many (both believers and otherwise), I grew up thinking, never questioned and firmly believed that they were one and the same. And this (imho) foundational misunderstanding continued despite the fact that the scriptures (that I have in several translations, love deeply and study daily) make very plain that they cannot be and are not the same. Imagine that... LOL! Ybrown...BE EN COURAGED, my sister in Christ. Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth. Please continue to bring the part God is giving to you. May God continue to Bless you with and for an enquiring mind and the willingness and perserverance to "Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion..." (Micah 4:13) ( I believe you (and perhaps some others here) will find that the "context" of that scripture applies to both this present season and your assignment in it...) If it is possible, even at this point, to not focus exclusively on what we have come to label "doctrine of inclusion":
Just one question, and I am not trying to play any kind of silly games with this, it's too serious: what if, indeed, it was ultimately God's plan?
Would we argue with God? Would we say it's not fair?
Jesus is far from being absent of the doctrine of inclusion, to the contrary. The issue with it was, and still is, everybody goes to Heaven, ultimately.
What this controversy, for lack of a better word, does is force us to confront the fact that actually we (general) might not know much about either one, hell or Heaven.
For exemple, when the new Jerusalem is described by the prophet in the Old Testament, it is very detailed.
Some areas are assigned to some, some to others, the area reserved for the prince, etc... Who gets to be where? Based on what? Do we get to, like some like to say openly, pick our spot too? I don't think so. God has already set it up in details.
From what we know, there will be an entire new universe, and very populated at that. That's God's design too.
When we say "and we shall reign with Him forever", how do we picture that? What will we be doing in the new earth with God dwelling among us forever? There will be "natural" people still... How? Why? And the tree of life too. And so much more.
Then, when we speak about salvation:
- Jesus said several times that salvation is for the Jew first. Paul, in Romans, says very plainly - talking about the Jews - that at the appointed time, they will all be saved. Do we have a problem with that?
- Jesus on the cross. Between two criminals.
- Jesus almost dead, but not yet
- Jesus not having "gone down to hell" yet
- Jesus' blood not having been accepted yet
- Jesus not having been glorified yet
And Jesus telling one of them, true, after he recognises that Jesus was innocent and asking to be remembered in Jesus' future reign, that he will be with Him this same day, in paradise...
Really, if we try to picture this in a more present context, would we accept it? Say, if we were witnessing the execution of a terrible criminal, and at the last minute, we could actually see Jesus there by that person, and the same dialogue taking place, would that fit with our understanding? I know it would in absolute, but would it really? Yet, that's God too, and that man was in paradise with Jesus that very same day...
So, I just have to ask: why are we so concerned with who is going to be there with us and how they got there? Will it matter?
At the wedding banquet, the ones who were invited did not want to go, so everybody else got in, on God's specific demand. Were they saved, sanctified, tithing, going to church and all that? Chances are no, they were not. Was it a spur of the moment decision on God's part?
What if "punishment" is only for a season of purification? What does it take away from us, in absolute, if indeed it's His plan? Nothing.
I'm not saying follow anybody, embrace anything, not at all. We ought to follow Him only. What I am saying is that there are mysteries in God. We ought to ask, and seek, and knock. But we can't know and understand everything, only what He allows us to.
The Pharisees were certain that they were right about Jesus and his followers. Only one, later, said if it's from God, it will stand, if not, it won't. But, don't take a chance to go against God...
The key, as Keita said:
"Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth. " My sista, this post tasted like a lil' sip from the deep well of that Water that permanently ends thirst.  Drink, y'all! BTW, ybrown My questions to you are sincere. I am not attempting to place you in a trap or anything like that. Though, I believe in eternal d**nation I am also in the midst of a studay (as you already know) dealing with the early church etc. My desire/goal is how did the Word of God become so "unpure" and how can one bring purity back into it? How? By taking it for exactly what it says and not adding to or taking away from it. I believe that we are in a season in which it is time for the people of God to "check themselves". In other words - why are we studying whether or not there is a hell? If we are doing right by the word of God, must we honestly concern ourselves with such? This is in no way to put down what you are doing - as I admire your zeal (though we disagree on the subject matter). I understand the frustration of preaching a "gospel of hell", however if we are truly preaching the Gospel - then we are preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Some people argue that even if one preaches hell then at least the people will get saved - you know like "scared straight". I don't know if I agree with the logic behind that for what happens when the fear leaves? I would rather preach, as the Apostles did. Yes, they often mentioned judgment in the last days but you hear them preach Jesus and how to become Christlike. If the focus will remain on Jesus, I don't believe we will have time for issues such as whether or not there is a hell. I came across this in my studies in Hebrews 6: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Because of the "Therefore" written above, we must first look @ Hebrews 5 first: 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. This pretty much sums it up for me. My greatest concern is that I am walking in the will of God in every area of my life and my prayer is that my fellow brother and sisters are doing the same. I love you ybrown; you are my sister. I am "appreciating" the discussion. Well said and well done, my sister in Christ! Me too, sis, me too! I have not seen anyone say or do anything which is other or any less than a reflection of followers of Christ in the fervent pursuit of Truth. God always honors that and in His image and His Love, we will learn to as well... no matter how messy the journey might get along the way... "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."(Phil. 8:3-16) [/b] [/quote] Because of Whose we are, I trust that neither of us would knowingly do such a thing no matter who we were, LOL! But seriously, I honestly am not seeing where I have "encouraged the 'promulgation' of any doctrine at all, let alone (what imho, at this point, only some have determined to be) a "false" one. That is largely because I believe that in our understanding of this matter, (as well as MANY others which are presently being tried), we all need to be very clear that neither our total agreement nor our violent disagreement can ever be a sound standard for determining God's Truth. Yet I have learned that whenever we (people) encounter what yet appears to us as the seeming "contradictions" in scripture, it almost always inspires this kind of defensive response, side-taking, name calling, cursing, and ultimately division among God's people. As I have shared with you many times, I believe that such conflict is usually an indication that we have encountered a spiritual paradox/dichotomy/juxtaposition which requires that the parts we have been given be rightly divided, properly assembled and often wrestled with instead of discarded out of hand when or if they don't seem to "fit" into our present model. So, what I did attempt to facilitate, am always about, and will continue to encourage is the passionate, fervent pursuit of Truth, which is Christ Jesus. If, during this thread, in your estimation, I fell short in meeting that mark, I trust that you will pray for me as I continue to pray for you and all who are now called saints... and all who one day will be. I am praying that in our zeal and passion for, as well as our preaching and teaching of Christ we ALL (I love that word!) will continue to grow and increase in our living out the wisdom and love embodied in this instruction regarding our servanthood: "A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to ALL, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." (2 Tim 2:24-26) If that should be so, for me, you, or any among us, let us pray that it be only the blood of Jesus that is found on our hands in that day. I will add that your statement took me straight to the words Our Father spoke to Ezekiel in chapter 3 of the book which bears his name. I assume that is what you intended and I believe you have spoken truly and well. But especially with this particular topic in view, I would simply remind you that, just as you so often and wisely admonish... context is always important. In this instance, I believe the context is also quite timely and stunningly ironic. Oh, my brother, I could not agree with you more about that! AMEN! I pray that everyone does that which makes our Heavenly Father say, "Well done thy good and faithful servant." And again, I say AMEN. |
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Post by MsKayLander on Aug 1, 2006 14:14:18 GMT -5
I locked it... hope I don't get in trouble... if I do... it's Jasmine's fault!!!! ;D
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