Heresay In The Cathedral

[krazeeboi]

Oh wow, I go on vacation and this thing explodes from 2 pages to 7. Lawd have mercy.

I did want to address one point made earlier concerning God's desire for all men to be saved. This is explicitly stated in scripture, no doubt about it. HOWEVER, the question is, is this God's only desire?

While this is a pretty lengthy read, here is an article which treats this apparent dichotomy better than any others I've seen. I assure you all, it is WELL worth the read.

[nina]

Anybody delved into this?

"Salus electorum, sanguis Jesu;

or,

the death of death in the death of Christ:

a treatise of the redemption and reconciliation that is in the blood of Christ;

with the merit thereof, and the satisfaction wrought thereby:

wherein the proper end of the death of Christ is asserted; the immediate effects and fruits thereof assigned, with their extent in respect of its object;

and the whole controversy about universal redemption fully discussed.

In four parts.

1. Declaring the eternal counsel and distinct actual concurrence of the holy Trinity unto the work of redemption in the blood of Christ; with the covenanted intendment and accomplished end of God therein.

2. Removing false and supposed ends of the death of Christ, with the distinctions invented to solve the manifold contradictions of the pretended universal atonement; rightly stating the controversy.

3. Containing arguments against universal redemption from the word of God; with an assertion of the satisfaction and merit of Christ.

4. Answering all considerable objections as yet brought to light, either by the Arminians or others (their late followers as to this point), in the behalf of universal redemption; with a large unfolding of all the texts of scripture by any produced and wrested to that purpose.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. — Matt. xx. 28.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. — Eph. i. 7.

Imprimatur, John Cranford.

Jan. 22, 1647.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

ybrown

Can you tell me what John 3:16 would mean in light of the nobody goes to hell/everyone is going to be saved theory? I do know what the scripture is saying but how does it fit in with what you believe.

[thanks, Jasmine, I knew what it meant but I was hoping that ybrown could break it down for me. So I just decided to ask her outright, since she used John 3:17 earlier but skipped the verse right before it)

[Jasmine]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown

Can you tell me what John 3:16 would mean in light of the nobody goes to hell/everyone is going to be saved theory? I do know what the scripture is saying but how does it fit in with what you believe.

[thanks, Jasmine, I knew what it meant but I was hoping that ybrown could break it down for me. So I just decided to ask her outright, since she used John 3:17 earlier but skipped the verse right before it)

I knew where you was heading with it ASWSOY, I was just being a smarty pants. lol

[And Such Were Some Of You]

jasmine said:

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown

Can you tell me what John 3:16 would mean in light of the nobody goes to hell/everyone is going to be saved theory? I do know what the scripture is saying but how does it fit in with what you believe.

[thanks, Jasmine, I knew what it meant but I was hoping that ybrown could break it down for me. So I just decided to ask her outright, since she used John 3:17 earlier but skipped the verse right before it)

I knew where you was heading with it ASWSOY, I was just being a smarty pants. lol

Hey, none of that! Leave that to me! ;D

[keita]

nina said:

If it is possible, even at this point, to not focus exclusively on what we have come to label "doctrine of inclusion":

Just one question, and I am not trying to play any kind of silly games with this, it's too serious: what if, indeed, it was ultimately God's plan?
Would we argue with God? Would we say it's not fair?

Jesus is far from being absent of the doctrine of inclusion, to the contrary. The issue with it was, and still is, everybody goes to Heaven, ultimately.

What this controversy, for lack of a better word, does is force us to confront the fact that actually we (general) might not know much about either one, hell or Heaven.

For exemple, when the new Jerusalem is described by the prophet in the Old Testament, it is very detailed.
Some areas are assigned to some, some to others, the area reserved for the prince, etc... Who gets to be where? Based on what? Do we get to, like some like to say openly, pick our spot too? I don't think so. God has already set it up in details.

From what we know, there will be an entire new universe, and very populated at that. That's God's design too.

When we say "and we shall reign with Him forever", how do we picture that? What will we be doing in the new earth with God dwelling among us forever? There will be "natural" people still... How? Why? And the tree of life too. And so much more.

Then, when we speak about salvation:
- Jesus said several times that salvation is for the Jew first. Paul, in Romans, says very plainly - talking about the Jews - that at the appointed time, they will all be saved. Do we have a problem with that?

- Jesus on the cross. Between two criminals.
- Jesus almost dead, but not yet
- Jesus not having "gone down to hell" yet
- Jesus' blood not having been accepted yet
- Jesus not having been glorified yet

And Jesus telling one of them, true, after he recognises that Jesus was innocent and asking to be remembered in Jesus' future reign, that he will be with Him this same day, in paradise...

Really, if we try to picture this in a more present context, would we accept it? Say, if we were witnessing the execution of a terrible criminal, and at the last minute, we could actually see Jesus there by that person, and the same dialogue taking place, would that fit with our understanding? I know it would in absolute, but would it really? Yet, that's God too, and that man was in paradise with Jesus that very same day...

So, I just have to ask: why are we so concerned with who is going to be there with us and how they got there? Will it matter?
At the wedding banquet, the ones who were invited did not want to go, so everybody else got in, on God's specific demand. Were they saved, sanctified, tithing, going to church and all that? Chances are no, they were not. Was it a spur of the moment decision on God's part?

What if "punishment" is only for a season of purification? What does it take away from us, in absolute, if indeed it's His plan? Nothing.

I'm not saying follow anybody, embrace anything, not at all. We ought to follow Him only. What I am saying is that there are mysteries in God. We ought to ask, and seek, and knock. But we can't know and understand everything, only what He allows us to.

The Pharisees were certain that they were right about Jesus and his followers. Only one, later, said if it's from God, it will stand, if not, it won't. But, don't take a chance to go against God...

The key, as Keita said:

"Even as we yet see in part, the Holy Spirit will, without a doubt, lead us into ALL (AMEN!) Truth. "

My sista, this post tasted like a lil' sip from the deep well of that Water that permanently ends thirst.

Drink, y'all!

[And Such Were Some Of You]

BTW, ybrown

My questions to you are sincere. I am not attempting to place you in a trap or anything like that. Though, I believe in eternal d**nation I am also in the midst of a studay (as you already know) dealing with the early church etc. My desire/goal is how did the Word of God become so "unpure" and how can one bring purity back into it? How? By taking it for exactly what it says and not adding to or taking away from it.

I believe that we are in a season in which it is time for the people of God to "check themselves". In other words - why are we studying whether or not there is a hell? If we are doing right by the word of God, must we honestly concern ourselves with such? This is in no way to put down what you are doing - as I admire your zeal (though we disagree on the subject matter).

I understand the frustration of preaching a "gospel of hell", however if we are truly preaching the Gospel - then we are preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Some people argue that even if one preaches hell then at least the people will get saved - you know like "scared straight". I don't know if I agree with the logic behind that for what happens when the fear leaves?

I would rather preach, as the Apostles did. Yes, they often mentioned judgment in the last days but you hear them preach Jesus and how to become Christlike. If the focus will remain on Jesus, I don't believe we will have time for issues such as whether or not there is a hell.

I came across this in my studies in Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Because of the "Therefore" written above, we must first look @ Hebrews 5 first:

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


This pretty much sums it up for me. My greatest concern is that I am walking in the will of God in every area of my life and my prayer is that my fellow brother and sisters are doing the same. I love you ybrown; you are my sister. I am "appreciating" the discussion.

It was suggested that I lock this thread but I am glad that I did not.

[Jasmine]

Good post ASWSOY

[MsKayLander]

What is UR???

[keita]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

BTW, ybrown

My questions to you are sincere. I am not attempting to place you in a trap or anything like that. Though, I believe in eternal d**nation I am also in the midst of a studay (as you already know) dealing with the early church etc. My desire/goal is how did the Word of God become so "unpure" and how can one bring purity back into it? How? By taking it for exactly what it says and not adding to or taking away from it.

I believe that we are in a season in which it is time for the people of God to "check themselves". In other words - why are we studying whether or not there is a hell? If we are doing right by the word of God, must we honestly concern ourselves with such? This is in no way to put down what you are doing - as I admire your zeal (though we disagree on the subject matter).

I understand the frustration of preaching a "gospel of hell", however if we are truly preaching the Gospel - then we are preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Some people argue that even if one preaches hell then at least the people will get saved - you know like "scared straight". I don't know if I agree with the logic behind that for what happens when the fear leaves?

I would rather preach, as the Apostles did. Yes, they often mentioned judgment in the last days but you hear them preach Jesus and how to become Christlike. If the focus will remain on Jesus, I don't believe we will have time for issues such as whether or not there is a hell.

I came across this in my studies in Hebrews 6:

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Because of the "Therefore" written above, we must first look @ Hebrews 5 first:

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God a high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


This pretty much sums it up for me. My greatest concern is that I am walking in the will of God in every area of my life and my prayer is that my fellow brother and sisters are doing the same. I love you ybrown; you are my sister. I am "appreciating" the discussion.

Well said and well done, my sister in Christ!

It was suggested that I lock this thread but I am glad that I did not.

Me too, sis, me too! I have not seen anyone say or do anything which is other or any less than a reflection of followers of Christ in the fervent pursuit of Truth. God always honors that and in His image and His Love, we will learn to as well...

no matter how messy the journey might get along the way...

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."(Phil. 8:3-16)[/b]

[Nikkol]

To be honest, the style of preaching will very much be based on the area that one lives. I can't "knock" the fire and brimstone message because that has brought some people to repentance, and they are still on fire for God. At the same time, there are those that can hear the "Jesus loves you" message and that alone brings them to repentance and they are still on fire. However, there are those that have heard either one of those messages and have chosen at some point in time that they are no longer going to live for God.

Sometimes, I think that we tend to put everything in this nice box... a "cookie cutter" mentality. Different areas need to hear different things and in different ways. A person may go to one neighborhood and preach one way but go somewhere else using the same scripture and preach it differently depending on who is there. It is really spirit led and therefore, although some may think that the hell message is wrong, I can't say that it is.

It seemed like the post got very deeply involved in if there's a heaven or hell..... I think that really what it comes down to is a person going to live with Jesus forever or not. If they chose to not live for Jesus and love him while they were on the earth, their death will be a continuation of their "life on earth".... eternity w/o God. So what it all boils down to is yes, Jesus loves us and he wants us to all come to Him. However, we are also wise to know that not everyone will and even moreso there will be those that do things in the name of Jesus and he'll tell them to depart. People will fall to all kinds of weird doctrines/teachings. People will do what makes them happy and not really what makes God happy. People will do things to be seen of others (wrong motives). That's what we do know.

Sometimes, I think that in our studying we can go so deep, that it doesn't really benefit others and ends up causing more confusion than clarity. At the same time, being that there is a discrepency amongst foundational beliefs of Christianity is also a scary thing to see. The board has only a few of the many people in the world and even from the few there are so many differences. Now of course this should NOT be confused with standards. (Doctrine should be universal while standards can vary depending on the ministry).

I think that we should all take a step back and review the fundamentals of Christian doctrine. And than we can review this thread and see where the issues lie. Besides that, it may cause more confusion.... I can say that personally even in reading this, I've become confused. Not on my beliefs but on what we wre/are trying to clarify.

I pray that this makes sense and we can use this to see where we should go next.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

The issue was the doctrine of inclusion or why does one preach a gospel of hell when hell does not exist as we were taught.

As I looked over the thread I found that it wasn't confusion at all. Originally I thought it was confusion, I thought it was a good idea for it to be locked - and then I read it with "new eyes" and I found that it wasn't like I originally thought.

Nobody is saying to preach a "pretty message". A good look at the Apostle Paul will show that he didn't preach in this manner, nor did he preach the fire and brimstone message - (regardless of which area one was living). Paul preached "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified" because He considered himself to be "Crucified with Christ".

Yes, I agree that sometimes we can go "deep" but even thinking of that over the past few hours I realized that what may be deep for you (general) is not deep for me. I have been called "deep" by several people, including those from this bulletin board - to the point in which I became offended when one called me that. Having thought of that over the past few hours, I realized that we cannot place everyone in the same category as ourselves. If I want to go "deeper" into the Word of God, that doesn't make me "too deep" but I do have to use wisdom as to when/if I am to share what I have learned. I also have to understand that the very thing that I am studying does not mean that everyone else should study the same.

[Jasmine]

Actually there was some type of confusion regarding this post. It's one thing to say that hell doesn't exist the way that we have been taught, and its another thing to suggest that a sinner will only be placed in hell for purification purposes of their unrighteousness to then join believers in the new heaven and earth.

Clearly the bible doesn't say that.

Thats where my "disagreement" lies.

[livinganewlife]

jasmine said:

Actually there was some type of confusion regarding this post. It's one thing to say that hell doesn't exist the way that we have been taught, and its another thing to suggest that a sinner will only be placed in hell for purification purposes of their unrighteousness to then join believers in the new heaven and earth.

Clearly the bible doesn't say that.

Thats where my "disagreement" lies.

I wasn't more so confused, but I wanted to truly understand how one can think that all will go to heaven no matter what (even without believing in Jesus) , or as Jas stated that sinners will be purified and later join saints in heaven.....

[krazeeboi]

This may sound a little harsh, but personally, I find it despicable when we attempt to impose our post-modern definition of "love" on a holy, unchangeable God Who is not at all swayed by the changing ideologies and philosophies of men. Let me tell y'all something: God is just and holy in banishing every person who has ever lived to an eternity void of His presence. If God chooses to save just ONE undeserving sinner from His wrath, He is infinitely merciful. God makes the rules, and it is US who have to play by them. God doesn't succumb to our distorted views on His unchangeable characteristics. Whoever God saves is His priority and His alone.

Let's stop acting as if we deserve to be saved just by virtue of being His creation, because that is not Truth.