Heresay In The Cathedral

[Jasmine]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

Brothers & Sisters, it is truly time to pray!

He is soon to return.

[krazeeboi]

It's nice to play on people's emotions, but citing scripture would help.

People of God, there is a such thing as eternal d**nation, and once you are consigned to it, there is no getting out. PERIOD. I don't care what Pearson or any other false teacher says.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

ybrown,

Without using an article that someone else wrote, can you PLEASE tell me where the wicked/unbelievers/sinners etc. go? Please use scripture (in context) to back up your answer.

Thanks!

[livinganewlife]

God knows everything, that's why it is written:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[ybrown]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown,

Without using an article that someone else wrote, can you PLEASE tell me where the wicked/unbelievers/sinners etc. go? Please use scripture (in context) to back up your answer.

Thanks!

Scripture answers all of your questions, that is the point.

You’re asking me a big question, one in which we can both go through scripture and find out. Scripture truly does interpret scripture.

First, I have a few questions for you.

The Lord has been leading me for almost a year to go back to the early church and to study because too many things that we do, do not look like Him or what He established. So, I looked at the early church. Specifically, I wanted to know how Paul preached Christ and the Gospel and how the early church preached to unbelievers.

I looked and discovered something that I hadn’t seen before. Look in Acts. Look in it thoroughly. Do a search.

Today, hell is a major part of our Gospel. Where did that come from? I assumed it was a part of the Gospel because Paul and the Apostles preached it. We can make all kinds of assumptions based on traditions and the teachings of men, but if it isn't in the Bible, then it's not correct.

I was wrong in thinking this (among other things).

Preaching hell is not from the early Church. If Paul, the Apostles or the first century church didn't use Hell in their preaching of the gospel, then why do we? Hell is never mentioned, not once in Acts.

Why didn't the early church tell unbelievers that they would go to hell if they didn’t accept Christ? Why was hell not a part of the preaching of the Gospel?
When did it become such a central part of our Message?

[And Such Were Some Of You]

ybrown,

Can you please tell me where YOU believe the unrepentant/wicked/unbelievers are going. You seem to ignore answering my question. If you truly believe that the Lord has given this "assignment" to you then you should have no problem listing the scripture that support what He is showing you.

Enlighten us.

[ybrown]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown,

Can you please tell me where YOU believe the unrepentant/wicked/unbelievers are going. You seem to ignore answering my question. If you truly believe that the Lord has given this "assignment" to you then you should have no problem listing the scripture that support what He is showing you.

Enlighten us.

What's with the assignment in "quotes" thing? I won't be sarcastic, demeaning or condescending to you, please give me the same respect.

Enlighten you? I'm still muddling through myself. God is the only one that can enlighten anyone. He may use my words, but He does the enlightening.

ASWSOY, I am in no way avoiding your question. I just thought we were having a discussion. My bad if I was mistaken. I was just laying a foundation using the first church as the basis because that is our model and what God gave us.

Even the article that I attached to my first post was foundational so that no one can claim that salvation is of themselves, and to show that salvation and everything that goes along with it is of God. That means He saves whomever He wants to save, and if He sent Christ to save the world, then that is God’s decision, not ours.

It’s not about what you, I or anyone else wants. It’s about what He wants and He gets whatever He wants.

I hope you did a search of the Book of Acts so that you can see for yourself how the first church DID NOT preach hell. That was foundational and spoke volumes to me. I don’t know who you felt about it. I thought what the early church did or didn't do was telling, but whatever.

I’m just curious as to why everyone wants to look at the early church for everything else (church structure, leadership, curses, etc.) except when it comes to this subject.

If you just want your questions answered and a slew of scriptures posted without us reasoning together, civilly, then it won’t make much of a discussion, but I’m willing to go along with whatever you want.

I will post the scriptures that tell me that Christ’s atoning work at the cross was His plan, so that He could ultimately reconcile and draw the world unto himself. These scriptures are throughout the Bible and when you read the Book again with new eyes, you see God’s plan and Christ throughout.

We say it casually all the time that Jesus is the Word incarnate, but did you know that Jesus is in the Old Testament? No, I’m not just talking about prophesies about His coming. I’m talking about Him being IN the Old Testament? Walking the earth? I NEVER saw it before. Maybe you have, but it is new to me.

He is the reason for the entire Book, from Genesis to Revelation. Every parable speaks of Him and God’s plan. Everything is about and speaks of Him, even our salvation! We were created for Him!!! The Father loves us so much and that IS the Gospel. He sent His Son to die for us. I just rejoice in that!

The Bible in totality, I believe speaks of this plan and even brings to light the things I couldn’t understand before, like the potter/clay, vessels of honor/vessels of destruction, God’s love for Jacob and His hate for Esau etc.

Okay, now on to scriptures:

Colossians 1:20: He, who created all things, will reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Hebrews 1:2: God has appointed His Son to be the "heir of ALL things"

Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

The question is this: Will Jesus Christ really do what He said He came here to do? He didn't say He came to save some of the lost. He came to save the lost. And that is everybody! Apart from Christ, we are all lost, but He came to seek for us until He finds us (Luke 15:4).

Luke 3:6: "All flesh shall see the salvation of God." This verse is probably taken from
Isaiah 40:5: "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Luke 15:4: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?"

If the average shepherd would keep on looking for one lost sheep and not give up until he finds it, surely our Lord will be no less persistent in seeking out every last one of His sheep, not just until they die, but until He finds them and brings them back safely to His fold. If a shepherd won't give up until he finds one lost sheep, how much more will God refuse to give up on His children! Scripture tells us His mercy endureth forever.

John 1:6-7: "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him." That ALL might believe!

That is God's stated reason for sending John, and that is His reason for all of His dealings with mankind. Dare we say that God will fail to accomplish His goal in sending John and all of the other prophets, and His only begotten Son?

John 1:29: "The next day he [John] saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, `Behold, the the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

The sin of the whole world, not just a part of it. Will He do it? Does He work

"all things according to the counsel of his will?" (Ephesians 1:11).

John 3:17: "God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

Why would God, who is all knowing, send Jesus to save the world if He knew beforehand that most of the world would not be saved? That doesn't make sense. God sent Jesus to save the world because He knew His Son would accomplish exactly what He sent Him to do.

John 6:33: "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Notice He doesn't offer life to the world--He gives it! I am not saying faith and repentance are unnecessary. I am saying that verses like Philippians 2:10 about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God look forward to a time when everyone who has ever been born has come to faith and repentance.

John 12:32: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Jesus didn't say that He would draw a select group called "The Elect"! He doesn't say He will try to draw all people to Himself. He says He will do it!

Matthew 11:27: "All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and ANYONE to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

John 19:30: "When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, `It is finished."

J.C. Ryle writes, and I wholeheartedly agree, that "Our Lord meant that His great work of redemption was finished. He had as Daniel foretold, `finished transgression, made an end of sin, made reconciliation for iniquity, and brought in everlasting righteousness' (Daniel 9:24). After thirty-three years, since the day when He was born in Bethlehem, He had done all, paid all, performed all, suffered all that was needful to save sinners and satisfy the justice of God. He had fought the battle and won it, and in two days He would give proof of it by rising again."

1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Jesus made atonement for the sins of the whole world. Would He who knows all things, who knows the beginning from the end, die for anyone unless He knew His death would have the desired effect of reconciling all people to God?

1 John 3:8: "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."

What is sin? The works of the devil. Jesus came not to keep sin in hell forever but to destroy it. That is why 2 Peter 3:13 says, "But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." Some day the entire universe will be completely devoid of sin, and God will be all in all! There won't be a place called hell (or hades, tartarus) that is full of sin forever, because according to
Revelation 20:14, "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire." It is the death of death!

1 John 4:14: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”

It does not say, “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the few who receive him in life, and to throw the rest into everlasting torment.”
Will He succeed, or will He fail?

Revelation 5:13: "And I [John] heard EVERY creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and ALL that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'

How can people be left in hell weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth if they are ALL gathered before the throne of God and the Lamb, worshipping them and ascribing to them blessing and honor and glory?

Ephesians 1:9-10: God's "purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time," is to "unite ALL things in him [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."

What other meaning could these verses possibly have than the clear meaning that is right there? In the fullness of time, ALL things ("all people," according to the context) will be united in Christ and God will be all in all! That is why Paul talks in verse 12 about "we who were the first to hope in Christ." We who are believers now are the firstfruits. The rest will follow in due time.

Acts 3:21 (NLT): Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of ALL things, as God promised long ago through the prophets."

Again, what else could this refer to but the complete restoration of every child of God created in His image to a right relationship with Him?

Acts 24:14-15: "I [Paul] worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God ... that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust."

This is the same man who said in Romans 9:3: "I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." Would he hope for the resurrection of the unjust knowing that they were being raised only to be thrown body and soul into a place of torment forever.

These are just scriptures from Gospels and the Book of Acts ONLY.

I haven’t even included scripture from the OT, and other places in the NT, or Paul's letters.

I will post scripture from Paul's writings but they do deserve special notice. His writings are the closest thing to a systematic theology in the Bible ranging over the whole field of the divine purpose and human destiny.

There are two things to keep in mind about Pauline writings:

1. Not only does Paul assert the sovereignty of God, but it also lies at the center of his teaching. He sees everywhere a purpose slowly but surely fulfilling itself, a purpose that can be resisted but not defeated.

2. He gives striking prominence to the resurrection as a spiritual and redemptive force. It is the climax of Christ's work for mankind.

I can post many, many more scriptures, as well as a list of scriptures that Christians often change or overlook in order to accommodate the teachings of men. Actually, I will post that next, since it brings up a lot of the other scriptures that I was going to post anyway.

[And Such Were Some Of You]

ybrown,

I had to stop reading your post because you obviously think that I was attacking you when I clearly was not. Ignore the quotes, they meant nothing. I cannot have a discussion with anyone who posts an article because I don't know what it is that they are trying to say. However, if they tell me well "this is what I believe" then that is different, then we can discuss. I was simply trying to get a clear answer from you so I know where you stand on the matter.

I am already doing a study regarding the 1st century church but not to determine whether or not there is a hell but to determine how we strayed from several issues.

I know that only the Holy Spirit can truly enlighten us but I also know that we are God's vessels and therefore when we are sent to do a work for Him, it is He that speaks through us. So when I say "enlighten us" then I am saying to show us what you believe the Lord is showing you and from there we will allow the Holy Spirit to do His work.

When Paul writes that "they will not enter the kingdom of heaven" then what does that mean?

[ybrown]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown,

I had to stop reading your post because you obviously think that I was attacking you when I clearly was not. Ignore the quotes, they meant nothing. I cannot have a discussion with anyone who posts an article because I don't know what it is that they are trying to say. However, if they tell me well "this is what I believe" then that is different, then we can discuss. I was simply trying to get a clear answer from you so I know where you stand on the matter.

I am already doing a study regarding the 1st century church but not to determine whether or not there is a hell but to determine how we strayed from several issues.

I know that only the Holy Spirit can truly enlighten us but I also know that we are God's vessels and therefore when we are sent to do a work for Him, it is He that speaks through us. So when I say "enlighten us" then I am saying to show us what you believe the Lord is showing you and from there we will allow the Holy Spirit to do His work.

When Paul writes that "they will not enter the kingdom of heaven" then what does that mean?

I answered your questions in my post, so I hope that by you saying you stopped reading doesn’t mean you won’t read it; otherwise there’s no point in me taking the time to write and put them together.

If I misunderstood your tone, then I apologize. I think it has something to do with all the false prophet talk that came from others, which is actually slightly humorous, as I‘ve said that plenty of times about people who challenged my theology.

I don’t think this is a funny matter in the least. After my initial shock, anger and feelings of being deceived, I recognized it for what it was: a privilege and a blessing to be in on God’s plan. As church folk we argue and disagree over so much denominational foolishness and everyone feels that they have to defend doctrine that they don’t really and truly understand or got from the Spirit. I mean understand, for real, for real.

But I digress.

When you say Paul writes “they will not enter the kingdom of heaven,” which specific scripture are you referring to? I can only answer from my understanding of the kingdom of heaven and who inherits said kingdom.

John said to repent because the Kingdom is at hand. I see that the Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus’ Millennial reign here on earth.

We, all believers in Christ who have ever lived or will live, until He returns, are the first fruits. We are the ones to inherit the Kingdom. Unbelievers will not. Only we will be raised with our new bodies to inherit the kingdom and reign with Jesus.

Let us consider for a moment the FIRST MAN (Adam) and the SECOND MAN (Jesus Christ) as mentioned in I Corinthians 15:45-47. He is also called the LAST ADAM in the same passage.

This SECOND MAN, THE LAST ADAM, reverses everything the first Adam did, whether directly or caused to happen indirectly. By one act of sin, ALL LIFE was cast into the FIRST ADAM, and all died; this was the FIRST DEATH. It was the DEATH OF LIFE, if you please. On the reverse hand, by an act of righteousness, ALL DEATH is cast into Christ the LAST ADAM, the SECOND DEATH; THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH, the DEATH OF DEATH.

ALL who died to life in the first Adam shall die to that death in the last Adam; THE LAKE OF FIRE. Their death shall die, it shall cease to be, it shall be no more. The same all who died in the man of sin and death shall live in the man of righteousness and life (I Cor. 15:22). The ALL in the FIRST ADAM is the very same ALL in the LAST ADAM.

If the First Death is dying to God, to His righteousness, and to His life, then reversing the process, dying to Adam, his sin, and his death, is the Second Death. But how is it done? How does one die to Adam? How can a man die to sin? And what is the process of the death of death? Death to the old man Adam begins by the birth of the new man Christ in one's life. Sin dies in the fire of His Holy Spirit, wherein every soul shall be baptized. And the process of THE DEATH OF DEATH is simply THE FILLING UP WITH LIFE that which is dead.

Yes all death ends at Jesus who holds the Keys of Death. It was because of Adam we must die, but it is because of Jesus we all have everlasting life and the Resurrection of the dead.

This is symbolized in all three resurrections that Jesus performed: He raised a young girl still at home, a man at his own funeral who was about to be buried and Lazarus, we all know about, who had been in his tomb for days. It doesn’t matter the stage of death.

Jesus conquers all death: spiritual and physical. "O give thanks unto the Lord: for He is good, for His mercy endureth forever" (Ps. 136:1)

God is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (KJV) 2 Peter 3:9.

Romans 2:4 - Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? (NIV)

God’s mercy endureths forever and ever, so why should anyone show contempt? He is longsuffering and patient so that none shall perish. Unlike man who endures for a nanosecond and resigns people to eternal punishment if they make one false move.

God IS the Fruit of the spirit and He demonstrates it in every step and aspect of our salvation.

[livinganewlife]

There maybe some legitamacy to this argument but what does Jesus means when he says:

Matthew 7: 20 - 23
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If everyone is Saved and enters Heaven; who is Jesus speaking too?

Who are those that will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

[Jasmine]

The same ones that will spend a short time (not eternity) in the fire, not to suffer the consequences of their sins and blatant rejection of Jesus, but to be purified so that they can, join the believers who walked according to his will and purpose on the new earth.

I have a lot of questions as well, but I will have to post them in about an hour or so.

[Nikkol]

A few points:

1. Context of scriptures is important. We can basically make the scriptures say anything or everything we would like. But without the surrounding scriptures, we lose the main goal of the scripture

2. When questioning why the church talks about hell, one must look at the world today. Hell was discussed in scripture and there is nothing particularly that states that hell was NOT discussed. Additionally, much of the preaching was based on the fact that they had killed Jesus and/or were around during the time when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. They had first hand knowledge while we don't and therefore have to rely on faith to believe that it happened.

going back to read some more and will continue to add more points

[Jasmine]

electladynb said:

A few points:

1. Context of scriptures is important. We can basically make the scriptures say anything or everything we would like. But without the surrounding scriptures, we lose the main goal of the scripture

2. When questioning why the church talks about hell, one must look at the world today. Hell was discussed in scripture and there is nothing particularly that states that hell was NOT discussed. Additionally, much of the preaching was based on the fact that they had killed Jesus and/or were around during the time when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. They had first hand knowledge while we don't and therefore have to rely on faith to believe that it happened.

going back to read some more and will continue to add more points

Amen!

[And Such Were Some Of You]

ybrown,

No, it did not mean that I didn't read your entire thread. It meant that before I continued to read, I wanted to clarify my intent. I know the enemy would love for us to get into a heated argument and one of us (or both) walk away hurt and offended. I got nothing but love for ya! However, I cannot read like I want to because I am at work and am limited in resources but I will do so once I get home this evening.

Here is the passage of scripture that I am referring to:

1 Corinthians 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

[giantsdodie]

Do not be deceived.

Hell is real. Its eternal. There is no atonement after death.