Heresay In The Cathedral

[And Such Were Some Of You]

ybrown said:

Acts 24: 12 They did not find me arguing with anyone or stirring up a crowd in the temple courts or in the synagogues or throughout the city, 13 nor can they prove to you the things they are accusing me of doing. 14 But I confess this to you, that I worship the God of our ancestors according to the Way, believing everything that is according to the law and that is written in the prophets. 15 I have a hope in God (a hope that these men themselves accept too) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. 16 This is the reason I do my best to always have a clear conscience toward God and toward people.

21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

Thank you, Jesus.

I'm sorry but I am not understanding what you are trying to say here. Can you please explain.

[auneeqsol]

In light of what's been said:


Actually I read an article that was in a christian magazine concerning this topic....now when i read things i do it with an open mind but yet keeping my faith and guarding my spirit, but I am still free of course to go and study.

But actually it was showing that unbelievers do go to the lake of fire, and they do experience the second death.
The bible says: "For the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord: Rom 6:23

The article went on to explain:

Notice the contrast Paul describes in the verse. Sinners earn DEATH, not eternal life. By contrast God's GIFT is eternal life through Christ, our Saviour.
The wages of sin is what ....DEATH, not eternal life in torment. The bible clearly states that . But some would confuse a simple truth. They will have you to believe that up means down, right means wrong, and death means eternal life. But the truth is in the pages of your bible.

And another verse ppl misunderstand. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH but have everlasting LIFE."
Without Jesus' sacrifice , mankind would PERISH not live eternally. To PERISH means to be destroyed, or to come to nothing. But Jesus came so that we might not be destroyed forever. If we already had immortal life, he could not give it to us as a gift!
The book of Ezekiel also confirms the truth of what John wrote. God was speaking through the prophet and he said "Behold all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine; the soul who sins shall die" Eze 18:4 God repeats himself in vs 20 "The soul that sins shall die"

----And the article went on to explain----

The HELL where the souls can be destroyed have been in comparison with the greek word "gehenna" which is translated into the word "hell"and it was derived from the Hebrew expression ge hinnom-a reference to the valley of Hinnom to the south of Jerusalem. Anciently, the valley of Hinnom was used as a place to dump Jerusalem's trash. Fires burned continuously and fed on the city's garbage, which included the dead bodies of condemned criminals. As a result "Gehenna" became a SYMBOL of judgement associated with FIRE (thus where we get HELLFIRE from supposedly)
The same word was also used in Matt 5:22 when Jesus was teaching whosoever says "you fool" shall be in danger of HELL FIRE-gehenna fire.

TIME OUT------- Now personally growing up I used to be scared to call someone a fool (even now lol) because of this scripture right here. I thought I would be in danger of going to hell....but was he really talking about that?
TIME IN-----back to the article

YES!! unrepentant sinners will be cast into a lake of fire. Gehenna fire is a reference to this final fate of the wicked. Now the Hebrew word that KJV often translates as "HELL" is sheol-which simply means grave or pit. It does not denote a place of ever-burning fire. And the greek word "HADES" translates to grave or pit. It does not mean a place of ever burning fire. And the greek word tartarus denotes a condition of restraint, and it applies not to human beings, but rather to fallen angels. Notice in 2 Peter 2:4 it says "God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement. The verb tartaroo, translated "cast down to hell" in 2 Peter 2:4 signifies to consign to Tartarus. So we have 4 words to mean hell in the bible.
Sheol or Hades -which describes a pit or the grave
Gehenna- which can refer to a place a place or fiery judgement, literally
Tartarus- which indicates the confinement of fallen angels
So using the one word "hell" can be confusing, and can possibly not communicate the truth of the bible.

So....according to our teachings of hell, has God predestined some human beings -made in his image- to burn in hell, with no genuiine opportunity for salvation? Shockingly, this idea of a cruel and capricious God is commonly taught in the name of Chrisitianity.
But what about those who have seared their consciences, and knowingly rejected God's truth, love ,knowledge and forgiveness in favor of rebellion, hatred and sin? These willful sinners will be burned up in a lake of FIRE!!!
Notice what Rev 20:14-15 says:"Then Death and Hades(grave or pit) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone NOT found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire"
Here is the second death-the eternal death penalty from which there is NO resurrection!!!! Those who have sealed their minds never to repent or surrender to Jesus Christ will be totally burned up --DESTROYED!!!

In Luke 16 the parable (rich man and lazarus) illustrates the torment unrepentant sinners will experience before they are totally burned up. Notice that rich man is about to be thrown into the lake of fire. He is in hades- the grave or the pit. (in this case I would say the pit) He is resurrected for final judgement, as described in Rev 20. So what does he ask for? A drop of water to cool his tongue. He did not ask for buckets of water to be poured over him. The rich man was in deep mental torment and anguish just before his destruction. The incorrigibly wicked WILL suffer the torment of knowing their fate before the final execution. But a loving and merciful God will put them out of their misery for all eternity. They will be totally burned up and destroyed forever. annihilated in the lake of fire-a fire that will spread over the whole earth! Those who have sealed their own fate, who have determined never to repent of their evil attitude and nature, will be totally burned up and will become ashes!! They will not be tormented FOREVER. They will receive their eternal punishment, not eternal PUNISHING. Their death, their eternal punishment, will last for eternity!!
This is what the bible teaches. The wicked will be annihilated. Buty they will not be unfairly. No one can be saved without accepting the message of Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12). So who is burning in hell right now? NO ONE. There is judgement coming, but we can all be thankful for God's justice, fairness, and plan of salvation through Christ.

End of Article------

[Jasmine]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown said:

Acts 24: 12 They did not find me arguing with anyone or stirring up a crowd in the temple courts or in the synagogues or throughout the city, 13 nor can they prove to you the things they are accusing me of doing. 14 But I confess this to you, that I worship the God of our ancestors according to the Way, believing everything that is according to the law and that is written in the prophets. 15 I have a hope in God (a hope that these men themselves accept too) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. 16 This is the reason I do my best to always have a clear conscience toward God and toward people.

21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

Thank you, Jesus.

I'm sorry but I am not understanding what you are trying to say here. Can you please explain.

Again. as it has been stated so many times, CONTEXT is very important. What is Paul saying, Why is he saying it, To whom is he saying it, and again WHY.

1And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul.

2And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence,

3We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.

4Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words.

5For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

6Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.

7But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,

8Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.

9And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.

10Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:

11Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.

12And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:

13Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

16And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

17Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.

18Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.

19Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.

20Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council,

21Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

22And when Felix heard these things, having more perfect knowledge of that way, he deferred them, and said, When Lysias the chief captain shall come down, I will know the uttermost of your matter.

23And he commanded a centurion to keep Paul, and to let him have liberty, and that he should forbid none of his acquaintance to minister or come unto him.

24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

26He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him.

27But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.

[auneeqsol]

Now personally.........

I grew up in holiness, and it was hellfire and brimstone every step of the way, and if you werent getting saved for nothing else, you were getting saved so that you wouldn't end up going to hell!!

But sometimes I saw where we did use that self righteously to witness or to condemn someone, but it was done out of ignorance. And we said it like we were so much better than others, when in actuality we are SINNERS saved by grace, no better than anyone else.

But in light of this article it was very interesting, and I cant' see where it took scripture out of context so to speak, but like i said earlier its an opportunity to study. Just maybe how we as christians have painted the hell experience might be wrong. Because I see the article as summarizing like this:

In order for man to have eternal life you must be in Christ and have him as your Lord and saviour. But if you choose not to accept Christ and the atoning work that he did on the cross to save you from destruction then you will die. You will not experience death one time but twice. And after the second death you will be totally annihilated, seperated from God your creator, and you will be destroyed without a trace. So why not choose to live in peace with Christ and experience all that eternal life has to offer with your creator in peace and harmony

Now in contrast to that, the argument is that , the way most of us have learned , been taught about, or viewed hell and God is like this:
If you dont get saved and live for Christ you will go to hell and burn until its time for death and hell to give up their dead. And then Christ will say depart from me ...I never knew you , enter into everlasting torment....and God will make sure you burn for ever and ever in the lake of fire. Now the some argue that God still being the same merciful loving God, would not want you to burn forever and ever, he never meant for you to. Why?? Just so you can suffer for your wrong doing on the earth, and for not listening to the preacher when he said come and give your life to Christ?? In a sense they are saying God is not like lil children, when one is mean to another, and then that one happens to fall and scrapes his knee and the other children tease him and say " ha ha ha ha you fell down and got hurt, yep thats what you GET!!! ha ha ha, now suffer, and I hope it hurts real bad!!!! But i guess they are saying God is still merciful and loving, he will not allow you to experience the joy of salvation because you didnt accept it, but he will give you a punishment that is deserving because you didnt choose this way and of course everything that was promised with it. Because he cant go against his word, there are wages to sin, and they are death....So he will destroy you, and everything about you, you will be non-existent, and will not live and reign with him in eternity because you decided to follow after Satan, which became your father, so therefore you are seperated from your creator forever and will miss out on the joy, peace, and love he has to give up close and personal!! And that brings me in remembrance of the scripture that says "dont fear the one that can kill the body, but the one who can kill BOTH BODY and the SOUL in hell!!! And according to this view that is what will happen to those who REFUSE to believe.\

So for the sake of discussion, I can see how that can be fitting according to the scriptures, but I havent done any deep studying on it, so I wont start teaching it in bible study groups or anything, but it is an interesting view.

Now I will not now or ever be able to accept that all are saved without accepting the work that Christ did on the cross. I can't accept that all will be accepted in the end, just some before others and so on. I believe that you must come to the father by the son, or you WILL NOT enter in, and that's plain in scripture. Yes salvation is free ...free to us because we didnt have anything to do with it being obtainable, but you can't just be going on your merry way and not accept it and live a life according to the world and expect to enter in....nooooo it doesnt work like that. In that case why strive for the mastery? Just do your thing and you'll be alright because salvation is already applied to you. Sorry cant roll with that.....

But as far as the hell issue or eternal torment, it raises a brow. And I guess you can see how it pieces together with some things we have read.

Like in Isaiah when it says hell hath enlarged herself, or there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, or when David said if he made his bed in hell , God will still be there...and so on.

Just a thought....

(Please don't stone me .... I havent strayed off the path of righteousness.... )

[ybrown]

auneeqsol said:

Now personally.........

I grew up in holiness, and it was hellfire and brimstone every step of the way, and if you werent getting saved for nothing else, you were getting saved so that you wouldn't end up going to hell!!

But sometimes I saw where we did use that self righteously to witness or to condemn someone, but it was done out of ignorance. And we said it like we were so much better than others, when in actuality we are SINNERS saved by grace, no better than anyone else.

But in light of this article it was very interesting, and I cant' see where it took scripture out of context so to speak, but like i said earlier its an opportunity to study. Just maybe how we as christians have painted the hell experience might be wrong. Because I see the article as summarizing like this:

In order for man to have eternal life you must be in Christ and have him as your Lord and saviour. But if you choose not to accept Christ and the atoning work that he did on the cross to save you from destruction then you will die. You will not experience death one time but twice. And after the second death you will be totally annihilated, seperated from God your creator, and you will be destroyed without a trace. So why not choose to live in peace with Christ and experience all that eternal life has to offer with your creator in peace and harmony

Now in contrast to that, the argument is that , the way most of us have learned , been taught about, or viewed hell and God is like this:
If you dont get saved and live for Christ you will go to hell and burn until its time for death and hell to give up their dead. And then Christ will say depart from me ...I never knew you , enter into everlasting torment....and God will make sure you burn for ever and ever in the lake of fire. Now the some argue that God still being the same merciful loving God, would not want you to burn forever and ever, he never meant for you to. Why?? Just so you can suffer for your wrong doing on the earth, and for not listening to the preacher when he said come and give your life to Christ?? In a sense they are saying God is not like lil children, when one is mean to another, and then that one happens to fall and scrapes his knee and the other children tease him and say " ha ha ha ha you fell down and got hurt, yep thats what you GET!!! ha ha ha, now suffer, and I hope it hurts real bad!!!! But i guess they are saying God is still merciful and loving, he will not allow you to experience the joy of salvation because you didnt accept it, but he will give you a punishment that is deserving because you didnt choose this way and of course everything that was promised with it. Because he cant go against his word, there are wages to sin, and they are death....So he will destroy you, and everything about you, you will be non-existent, and will not live and reign with him in eternity because you decided to follow after Satan, which became your father, so therefore you are seperated from your creator forever and will miss out on the joy, peace, and love he has to give up close and personal!! And that brings me in remembrance of the scripture that says "dont fear the one that can kill the body, but the one who can kill BOTH BODY and the SOUL in hell!!! And according to this view that is what will happen to those who REFUSE to believe.\

So for the sake of discussion, I can see how that can be fitting according to the scriptures, but I havent done any deep studying on it, so I wont start teaching it in bible study groups or anything, but it is an interesting view.

Now I will not now or ever be able to accept that all are saved without accepting the work that Christ did on the cross. I can't accept that all will be accepted in the end, just some before others and so on. I believe that you must come to the father by the son, or you WILL NOT enter in, and that's plain in scripture. Yes salvation is free ...free to us because we didnt have anything to do with it being obtainable, but you can't just be going on your merry way and not accept it and live a life according to the world and expect to enter in....nooooo it doesnt work like that. In that case why strive for the mastery? Just do your thing and you'll be alright because salvation is already applied to you. Sorry cant roll with that.....

But as far as the hell issue or eternal torment, it raises a brow. And I guess you can see how it pieces together with some things we have read.

Like in Isaiah when it says hell hath enlarged herself, or there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, or when David said if he made his bed in hell , God will still be there...and so on.

Just a thought....

(Please don't stone me .... I havent strayed off the path of righteousness.... )

auneeqsol, thank you for your thoughts.

Like that article said, translations have been a problem where the Christian idea of hell is concerned. But that’s not the only place where it happened. The writer of that article came to the conclusion that those in the Lake of Fire are there forever. “Forever” was never what God said, and as the mistranslations are piled on, the result is that people are burning forever in hell.

When God wrote scripture, He chose two Greek words to denote time and to reveal Himself and His purpose. These Greek words are aion and aionion. These have exact English equivalents in "eon" (a noun; a period of time) and "eonian" (an adjective; having to do with a period of time). Ignoring what God wrote, many scholars have virtually changed His Words.

Rejecting the inspired usage and meaning of eon and eonian, scholars have substituted words as unrelated as "forever," "eternal," "time," "universe," "world," and "life," all to translate this single Greek noun and its adjective. How can a seeking person know God’s thoughts when his Bible does not even tell him what God has said?

A translation should tell us, in the purest form possible, what God has said. It should then be up to the seeker to interpret what God has said. If the translators fail to accurately handle what God said, then the seeker only has access to (and is at the mercy of) the translators’ interpretations, which are not necessarily in accord with God’s thoughts.

I have been doing a scholarly, in-depth study of this, as well as the roots of the First Church, including struggling through understanding Hebrew and Greek and reading the oldest biblical texts and manuscripts possible. This is my passion and like you said it is an opprtunity to study.

You at least read an article and cared enough to raise an eyebrow when something didn't seem quite right. Bravo, soldier !

God gave me this passion to really study His Word and I didn't know why before. Now I know and I won't lead people astray with falsehoods. He has thrusted me onto several national platforms recently where my words, work and vision have been seen by millions and will be seen by many millions more, on television and in movie theaters and what I've learned will be reflected in everything. God's timing is always right. Hallelujah!!!

Auneeqsol, but I must ask you, do you take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus literally? Your answer would be greatly appreciated as I haven't gotten any 'round these parts ;D

And girl, don't you know? Jesus had stones thrown at Him for saying things that the religious folk didn't like. And the Apostle Paul and wildman Martin Luther (I love this guy), among many other mighty, mighty men of God, were called heretics to the highest degree because they upset the applecart of religion. Their righteousness wasn't touched in the slightest because what men think don't matter in the s-l-i-g-h-t-e-s-t.

It's par for the course when He uses you and you should be so blessed to be used like that!

I know it's not all that serious to you, but I just thought you'd like to know.

Shorashim.

[nina]

(Not to derail the thread)

Just a quick question:
Could you tell me what is/are your personal reason(s) for mentioning "Shorashim"?

Thanks

[auneeqsol]

Oh anytime it comes to study of the word its serious to me. God gave me a burning desire, and even during these times, an urgency in my spirit as well to study things, to "prove all things, and to hold fast to that which is good". I take after the Bereans in Paul's day, it doesnt matter who it is I have to research a thing and always dig deeper into it. I have learned over the years that you cant go off of what ppl say, prophecy, preach, or teach you alone, you must study and research for yourself, and do keep an open mind, not a gullible mind, but an open one to receive when things are cleared in scripture.

I have already been persecuted because of my studies of the word. One time in bible study my pastor centered the whole service around me to challenge me in why I thought the way I did about a certain topic in church, just because I didnt agree with him....lol, I dont think that was the will of God but he did it anyway just to TRY and prove me wrong, and he is the same one who prayed over me and said God would use me to tear down tradition and religion in the church!!! But anyways, im no stranger to ppl pointing a finger. I really enjoy these discussions in here, they can be very intriguing.

I do notice in the church world some ppl are afraid to find out other things about what they have been taught and have trusted for years. I use to believe a lot of different ways about the word, specifically about end-time stuff in the word, but as I matured in the things of God I begin to find out that what I knew was only a fraction of what the word really and truly says, and that some of my views and understanding of the word were confined. Even today I cant go to my home church (what i came up in) and share some of the things that I have studied and learned, they would say I have fell off the deep end!!!...LOL but I could, only at an appointed time...in that way i will know someone would receive it and be enlightened.

But i'm keepin up with the discussion to see where it can go....

[And Such Were Some Of You]

auneeqsol

I, for one, will never stone you for stating and sharing your opinion. Actually, I appreciate the way that you did so because you didn't do so in a way in which you are accusing/condemning others for not believing in the way that you are.

I also thank you for stating what your beliefs/questions/concerns are and why you feel that way. It makes for easy discussion and you can sense the willingness within you to learn or to teach (whichever fits).

ybrown

you have received answers but you look at it as an attack against you and it is not. If one does not receive/believe what you have written then so be it. Remember, it was you who said that only the Holy Spirit can enlighten. Please allow Him to do so.

Nina

I know that "shorashim" is a word meaning "roots" in Hebrew. Thus I am hoping she is saying that we need to get to the roots of our faith/christianity etc.

I agree that we have strayed away from the 1st century church and I too am doing an in-depth study of it as well as some other things that we have been taught. I am learning a great deal and at the appropriate time and place, I will share.

[giantsdodie]

I will say this. We say a lot of stuff about the first century church but we do not have all the details about the first century church so we dont know everything they did, nor was everything they did right either ( Revelation shows us that ). Also we arent in the first century either. The most important thing is that we are doing what GOD requires us to do and we obey Him in that.

[Nikkol]

4. If people don't want to live for God or love him while they are living, that means that they don't want to live for him or love him upon death. Therefore, the punishment that is given is based on the decision(s) of their life. We know that God is life, freedom, light, etc. So w/o God is the total opposite which would be given to the unbeliever. This is for eternity

5. Those that are saved are no longer sinners. If a person is a sinner, they aren't saved for we are saved from our sins and its penalty.

[giantsdodie]

How can a seeking person know God’s thoughts when his Bible does not even tell him what God has said?

I also find it funny that we have this bible that is perfect and infallible in the areas that we agree with but has errors and mistranslations in the areas we dont.

Now God cant even get a booked published accurately

Utterly ridiculous. Seriously.

[livinganewlife]

LOL GDD!!!!

Uneeq, kudos to you too.....

I like Uneeq grew up in holiness and some of the very core foundation of my earlier teachings has and is being challenged these days as I study the word of God.

I have been challenged on the topic "Hell", death and other topics as well.

Many were saved in the "church" during those "hell fire and brimstone messages" only to miss hell and never took the time to know, study and love the true God......

I am not a scholar on this topic; however nothing in my research has shown me that ALL are Saved and will enter into Heaven (eternal peace)....

Nothing in my bible has shown me that you can enter into Heaven (eternal peace) any other way but through Christ.

As for this "inclusion theory" no one can show me in the Holy Writ it states that ALL will receive salvation no matter where you go, how you choose or through whom you choose. .

[ybrown]

andsuchweresomeofu said:

ybrown

you have received answers but you look at it as an attack against you and it is not. If one does not receive/believe what you have written then so be it. Remember, it was you who said that only the Holy Spirit can enlighten. Please allow Him to do so.

I haven't gotten any anwers. All that has been happening is folks are firing off questions to me and I'm answering.

Then when they don't like the well over 100 scriptures I post, I get accused of taking scripture out of context, which is nothing but a cop out. If I am, then anyone should be able to show me.

Over 100 scriptures (and I didn't even put up all of them!!) in the Old Testament, New Testament and the Gospels are being taken out of context??? How is that even possible?

Actually, it's not possible. That's called purpose when a theme is woven and weaved throughout ALL of scripture. We too bsy looking at the darn sweater to even see what's holding the thing together.

I asked you about the Book of Acts as well as other questions and you haven't answered. I asked another poster questions so that this person could come up with her own answer instead of me giving her one.

You asked me where my hope lies and I tell you over and over again and yet you still come back with another question and then another, without ever addressing my previous posts. What am I supposed to do with that?

Then the minute one stuck in religiosity chimes in with the same ole', same ole', what happens? The amen choir chimes in amens to things that are just flat out wrong. Wrong exponentially. I know that is immaturity and I just don't respond. Again, what is one to do with that?

This is the spirit of religion operating and it takes a stronghold like a pit bull.

It was only when I learned how to read the Bible critically did God unveil His depths. This may seem paradoxical, that glory should accompany diligent search and many broken pencils and broken hearts.

I always thought revelation came when one’s head was in the clouds, when one felt cozy and protected in church crowds, when one floated through the day in a Big Warm Jesus Hug. No. These things, oftentimes, led to self-righteousness, a rut of immaturity, and pit bull strength religion.

The Holy Spirit will do His job no matter who is trying to work against Him. So how does glory and revelation come? Absolutely, it comes from God. From our perspective, it comes from opening the eyes, from critically re-analyzing beliefs, from squarely facing previously ignored scripture. It comes from the determination to finally heed that still small voice that has whispered for years, Something is missing or Something is not adding up.

You asked for a simple answer to one of your questions. I'm sorry, but I have no simple answers. I am long-winded nowadays because God has put so so so so much in my spirit that sometimes I feel like I will burst if I won't share.

I realized He doesn't fill me for my sake, but to share with His people and that is what I have been attempting to do.

I don't sleep much at night because He's constantly revealing, all night into the wee hours and sometimes I just have to say enough! Just 3:30 this morning He revelaed something huge to me. I want to know if others know because I know I can't be the only one He's giving these jewels to.

I know He's revealing things to other people and I just want to know others are hearing and learning. And in a way that only confirms for me what I know to be true.

One last thing. We're supposed to have a spiritual relationship with God. The fact of the matter is, we pretend a lot. We don't really know Him at all. We know what religion tells us and that picture is of a schizoid, desparate, loser god who had a plan and can't seem to bring it to pass. I can say this because you're looking at the chief of all liars right here.

Prior to three years ago I used to pretend because I didn't want to be the only one not in a deep relationship with God. And just these past few months He has brought me right into His bosom. We pretend because we're told this is what is supposed to happen when you get saved. What winds up happening is we don't truly get to know God and His nature.

Exodus 32:7-14 was a huge eye opener and when God revealed the purpose behind the actions in those passages, all I could do is weep...and then rejoice. It all comes together.

The church tells us what those passages are about, but when you listen in the Spirit, it is not that at all. Church teaches the neat little shallow thing: this passage is about God's wrath, His judgement. It's about how we can have God change His mind, how prayer can change things, yadda, yadda.

Is that what you see? It's what I saw and thought for years!

God is revealing His nature in Exodus 32:7 and we miss it completely because we're so programmed to see what relgiion tells us to see. We don't get it because we don't know Him.

Forget religiosity. Let Him teach you.

That is all I'm saying (well a fraction of what I'm saying). ;D

[ybrown]

nina said:

(Not to derail the thread)

Just a quick question:
Could you tell me what is/are your personal reason(s) for mentioning "Shorashim"?

Thanks

Nina it means roots.

[ybrown]

giantsdodie said:

I will say this. We say a lot of stuff about the first century church but we do not have all the details about the first century church so we dont know everything they did, nor was everything they did right either ( Revelation shows us that ).

Don't take this the wrong way, but that is just laziness and bunk. But there is no condemnation though. Just don't say we don't know and then say there's no need for it just because God is leading others to search it out.

Yes, we do know. You just have no interest in it. We even know what the early church fathers wrote. Millions upon millons of thoughts are available. We can even trace where the RCC took ahold of the church. Just look for it. It's ALL there.

Even still, scripture speaks on these matters.

Also we arent in the first century either. The most important thing is that we are doing what GOD requires us to do and we obey Him in that.

Paul didn't do things right? The Apostles didn't do things right? The canonizers didn't do things right?

THAT is the era of the early church.

The Catholic church made the same errors.

They would have known better if THEY had looked at the first church and cracked open a scroll or two, instead of just making stuff up and creating a mote of error around the church.

That is what I'm saying we have done: Made stuff up.