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Post by keita on Oct 10, 2007 15:12:55 GMT -5
LOLOL!!! Now, who's calling folks out? LOL!!!  Besides, given my sense of deja vu on this topic, with this company, I think you probably already know, and you know I'm coming, LOL!  Because "Iron sharpens iron."  Just getting my "patience fruit" and endurance together for this one, getting a fix on the breaches....... And I do TRULY appreciate and hope no one regrets YOU moving me along or calling me in, lol! |
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Post by stillfocused on Oct 10, 2007 15:38:30 GMT -5
AT...I understand marrying whomever the Lord sends..but, a sister better be sure the Lord sent him !!! I will not marry the first man who comes grinning my face..talking about "God told me you my wife "..how many marriages taken place because of the the misuse of the gift of prophesy ? Which makes me wonder how many of them divorce after 6 - 12 mths because they didn't take the time to get to each other ?
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Post by anointedteacher on Oct 10, 2007 16:50:49 GMT -5
AT...I understand marrying whomever the Lord sends..but, a sister better be sure the Lord sent him !!! I will not marry the first man who comes grinning my face..talking about "God told me you my wife "..how many marriages taken place because of the the misuse of the gift of prophesy ? Which makes me wonder how many of them divorce after 6 - 12 mths because they didn't take the time to get to each other ? No Way!!! I will not marry bishop doe, who come with the God saying spirit.... I have to know, that I know.. with confirmations from different true men and women of God and there should be a purpose a vision for our marriage, I am too old to play game an have seen too much mess.... At least Bynum lasted 5 years...  I ran cross some wish vision.... and wanta be. |
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Post by anointedteacher on Oct 10, 2007 16:55:47 GMT -5
LOLOL!!! Now, who's calling folks out? LOL!!! Besides, given my sense of deja vu on this topic, with this company, I think you probably already know, and you know I'm coming, LOL! Because "Iron sharpens iron." Just getting my "patience fruit" and endurance together for this one, getting a fix on the breaches....... And I do TRULY appreciate and hope no one regrets YOU moving me along or calling me in, lol! I am waiting for you to respond.... I want to read what you have to say..... especially about the dying woman (she might be dead) with five kids. Her husband was already dead when the story was given and she was dying... this was about or over 10 years ago. |
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Oct 11, 2007 6:26:04 GMT -5
LOLOL!!! Now, who's calling folks out? LOL!!! Besides, given my sense of deja vu on this topic, with this company, I think you probably already know, and you know I'm coming, LOL! Because "Iron sharpens iron." Just getting my "patience fruit" and endurance together for this one, getting a fix on the breaches....... And I do TRULY appreciate and hope no one regrets YOU moving me along or calling me in, lol! LOL, all in love sis, all in love. Yes, I am giving you that nudge because I know that you were setting the bait all along...ROFL, with your asking the question. Seriously though, I also have my thoughts but am thinking about how to form them. I want to make sure I am saying what I really want to say. |
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Post by anointedteacher on Oct 11, 2007 11:30:47 GMT -5
LOLOL!!! Now, who's calling folks out? LOL!!! Besides, given my sense of deja vu on this topic, with this company, I think you probably already know, and you know I'm coming, LOL! Because "Iron sharpens iron." Just getting my "patience fruit" and endurance together for this one, getting a fix on the breaches....... And I do TRULY appreciate and hope no one regrets YOU moving me along or calling me in, lol! I am waiting for you to respond.... I want to read what you have to say..... especially about the dying woman (she might be dead) with five kids. Her husband was already dead when the story was given and she was dying... this was about or over 10 years ago. I must add.... that the man didn't leave his wife and kid for a few months, but for some years. Before he left, he did not only cheated, but he used abuse his wife physicallyand emotionally and his children was very young. She was told to stay in that abusive situation. Those mothers of the church was wrong and is responsible for the death of that woman. Her family should have sue the church and those mothers for giving bad counseling, that left five kids motherless. The man didn't love his wife nor his children, he didn't care. He knew he had AIDS when he walk back into that door, and didn't tell his wife he was sick, the mother of his five kids. He didn't care about those kids. So why allow a man or woman who walked out on you, come back so easily into your life? You don't know what you opening yourself to, or what demon you allowing into your house and life. You don't know who he was with and what he have done and what he have been affected with. I am not saying there should be no reconciliation.... but some serious examination, before he enter back in the house. My friend ex-husband was on crack.... He would steal anything he can get his hand on and disappear for a few months. When he returned, the man be full with demons, big demon!!! She left our church single and returned with man married. My former pastor made both of them take an blood test and had them tested for AIDS, because the man was selling his behind on the street for cracks. She even put him in a drug rehab. but he left before time and went back on the street. The wife lost her apartment and moved in with me, the wife NOT the crackhead.... We would pray every night for this man, pull down stronghold and interceed. Sometime we would go out to Overtown(part of Miami) looking for him under the bridges and where all the homeless ppl hang out at). His sister would take him in off and on. He know the Word of God and preached the Word of God... he was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. She moved out from me and got another apartment and he came home again. She left my church and went to another church, and the apostle of the church assigned a couple to counsel them. It was a nice couple, but the man in the couple used to be on crack too, and was not completely free. He went back into drugs with my friend's husband. So the apostle put them both in a drug rehab. James (my friends ex-husband) talk the guy into leaving rehab with him. James went back on the street and the young man remain cleaned. It took years before she gave up and divorced him. She was about to have a breakdown, she was always depress and crying... James remarried and now putting wife#2 through the same thing and even worst, there a baby involve. |
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Post by keita on Oct 11, 2007 18:51:57 GMT -5
Alrighty then...... First, in order to honor and follow the total flow of this discussion, I'm gonna do a little "sankofa" (going back to go forward) and just start right here: That's a lovely sentiment, a wonderful perpective and a perfectly admirable part of any individual couple's personal manifesto for their own marriage. But scripturally speaking, and judged strictly on that basis as a doctrine/teaching, that dog just won't hunt. Because according to GOD's written word, divorce most certainly both was and is a whole lot more than "an option". Divorce was originally conceived designed and given by GOD to HIS people ( Deuteronomy 24) and stands to this day as part of HIS immutable LAW. Divorce was ordained by GOD as THE ONLY proper proceeding for HIS people to decree the ending of a marriage covenant between a man and a woman. And it remains so to this day. Neither Jesus, Himself needed to, nor Paul as His apostle ever dared to change one bit of that fact and Truth. So the saying, and certainly the teaching that "Divorce is not an option" is simply unscriptural. But add a "For US" and it's nevertheless a really positive reflection and declaration of a married couple's level of commitment to staying together, no matter what. Which, btw, may not, necessarily or always, be saying all that much or even be the best idea. I'm quoting these excerpts from sis nina's post on page 1, first, because what she said is true and then because it repeats, reinforces and reiterates exactly what I'm saying: I don't think it's right to tell young couples, or any couple, "divorce is not an option".
Divorce is not an "option", the wording is wrong. That might bring the question "then what is divorce?".
However, we know that marriage was instituded by God. It is to be holy and sacred. Who instituded divorce?
The laws of divorce are part of the Law. And, the law even today is holy and perfect and is from God. It was fulfilled, not voided and done away with.
Divorce was enunciated in great details by God. He says how, and he says why.
I have to believe that a Holy and all knowing God would not make such a provision for his people for it to be a deadly and d**ning one.
The law of divorce is very precise, and very little known. Even the highest rabbinic authorities struggle with it, today more than ever. The state of Israel just started recognizing civil divorce and it causes a big uproar. Up until now, only a rabbinic court could finalize a divorce and declare it dissolved. However, the Law never denied the right for a couple to divorce, as it is written..
It is God's provision, made by an all knowing and loving God and Father, who knew in his divine wisdom what would happen, and made a way for those to whom it would happen to still have life, and a life, both in the natural and in the spiritual..... I firmly believe that any inroads to be made in the battle against the escalating numbers of crumbling Christian marriages must be made in Spirit, Truth, and rightly divided word. Anyting else leaves breaches in the walls where the enemy can enter and begin to prevail in an area/territory....like marriage. So just to start with, divorce in and of itself is of GOD, and therefore never a sin and definitely not the, or our present marriage problem in Christianity. Divorce is NOT the opposite or enemy of marriage. Okay, I'm in. LOL! |
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Post by anointedteacher on Oct 11, 2007 21:22:27 GMT -5
What are all the options, beside adultry?
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Post by kanyon on Oct 11, 2007 23:21:17 GMT -5
I do recall some of this discussion...
C&P
I don't think it's right to tell young couples, or any couple, "divorce is not an option".
Divorce is not an "option", the wording is wrong. That might bring the question "then what is divorce?".
However, we know that marriage was instituded by God. It is to be holy and sacred. Who instituded divorce?
The laws of divorce are part of the Law. And, the law even today is holy and perfect and is from God. It was fulfilled, not voided and done away with.
Divorce was enunciated in great details by God. He says how, and he says why.
I have to believe that a Holy and all knowing God would not make such a provision for his people for it to be a deadly and d**ning one.
The law of divorce is very precise, and very little known. Even the highest rabbinic authorities struggle with it, today more than ever. The state of Israel just started recognizing civil divorce and it causes a big uproar. Up until now, only a rabbinic court could finalize a divorce and declare it dissolved. However, the Law never denied the right for a couple to divorce, as it is written..
It is God's provision, made by an all knowing and loving God and Father, who knew in his divine wisdom what would happen, and made a way for those to whom it would happen to still have life, and a life, both in the natural and in the spiritual.....
However I see no direct references here to the precise instructions re divorce. Can someone supply them please? Thanks.
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Post by keita on Oct 12, 2007 0:08:20 GMT -5
Wow, bro kanyon, you just referred to sis nina's post just as I did! I think that's more than a coincidence.  Sis AT, as far as "options" for divorce, I think that approach to searching the scriptures is a big part of the problem in our misunderstanding them. Bro kanyon, I don't think sis nina's words are or were intended so much to offer answers as they are to bring some light to this path. And I really believe they do exactly that. At this point, I'm certainly hoping that "to the scriptures" is exactly where this discussion will next go. But that's more than just my decision and more than a "one keita" (which btw, is not my name and simply means "worshipper") job. I'm ready and willing but first, I feel the need to say this and get it out of the, and anybody's, way. BTW, are those that are posting married/single/divorced? With all due respect, sis Nikkol, I'm not really sure what possible difference that would make. But I certainly don't mind answering your question and sharing a little more background besides. I am an almost 50 year-old woman who was married at 18 years old, in a "fairy tale" wedding to my high school sweetheart. We were both Christians, at least by upbringing and local church membership. Almost from the day we were married, and actually a few times before, he was physically abusive and very controlling. When he took it to the physical, we would violently brawl quite regularly and, as I've shared before, I could definitely hold my own, but nevertheless he always "won". Let's just say hospital emergency procedures for domestic violence victims, women's shelters, and pfa's are not unfamiliar to me. We eventually separated during my godfather's gunpoint rescue of me, and we were separated for 3 years but remained legally married. During that time, that man hooked up and shacked up with a young woman from the church where he had been "ordained". When I heard that he and his woman were going to baptize their newborn baby, I decided to visit that church that very Sunday and, shall we say, "give my testimony". That was actually my first time speaking to a congregation, lol! We were legally divorced 60 days later, on his dime, and soon after, he married his baby son's mother. We had no children together, so the break was a total one. I remained single, but rarely unattached, before the day I was born again. He died 7 years ago. So I really do get it.....JB, PW, and all. Now when I originally began to study this topic, my first husband was still alive. At the time, I was born again and wasn't at all sure what I felt about marriage, and not at all concerned with marrying anyone. Still I wanted to keep my options open, believed GOD and truly wasn't trying to be an adulteress or "burn for eternity". So initially my motives were largely selfish and just about trying to find myself a workable plan as a "saved" sista. I found that according to so much of what was written and taught, I was to remain unmarried and celibate until the death of my first husband. Honestly, that just left me regularly considering fornication, secretly wishing and sometimes praying that the man would just go on and drop dead. I'm just being real y'all. But as not just a follower of "Jesus", but a LOVER of Christ, and a WOMAN of GOD, I just knew in my spirit that GOD had better for a sista like me. So I got to know the WORD, kept on studying the scriptures , learned to hear, be led and taught by HOLY SPIRIT, and just wanted the Truth. And I discovered that GOD is faithful and HE's always got a plan for our every situation, that works for our good if we'll learn it and work it in TRUTH.....especially HIS WOMAN. Now, as a free female son of GOD, who still ain't trying to "burn" in either sense, and who is legally and scripturally eligible to marry any believing man, my personal situation is no longer an issue. So, at this point, and actually more passionately than ever, I just want to share some or all of what I've learned, while learning some more, with anyone who is in pursuit of TRUTH. Because the TRUTH really does make us free! ;D Okay, LOL, now I'm really in! And again, I'm hoping we're going to the scriptures. But I've been "talking" a lot here so I'll hold up and try to resist the urge to just go on and take us there, LOL! |
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Post by anointedteacher on Oct 12, 2007 16:00:49 GMT -5
Keita, that was a powerful testimony.... I see you are related to Juanita Bynum If your ex-husband was still alive, do you feel it is alright to re-marry, after a divorce? Why do some believe divorce can not be forgiven and you are bond till your ex die? Why some say adultery is the only reason for divorce... isn't domestic violence and child abuse worst? I know what the Word say.... what are the condition for any form of abuse in marriage? I've never experience domestic violence, but I seen it happen to two of by high school friend's mother. I had two friends who experience domestic violence. I've never seen it in my family, although I have heard some stories. |
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Post by keita on Oct 13, 2007 7:32:28 GMT -5
Keita, that was a powerful testimony.... I see you are related to Juanita Bynum GLORY TO GOD!!! LOLOL! I thought we had established that you, Anointed, me and JB were all family.....y'all are her sisters and she's my cousin, remember? ;D Anyway.....We're ALL kin under our skin! I believe that Father GOD very lovingly designed, ordained, and provided divorce to His people for if/when we/they failed in marriage. And I believe that an integral part of HIS very purpose and plan for and provision of divorce is actually that they/we be free to marry again....or to choose not to. So I definitely believe it is permissible "to marry" after divorce. But unless we're talking about marrying the same person again, which scripture also has some things to say about, I don't consider it to be "re-marrying". I think that divorce being portrayed as an unforgivable sin, which requires some kind of lifestyle-type penance, is a longstanding Roman Catholic teaching/doctrine. Like a whole lot of others, that false teaching/doctrine eventually became largely and commonly accepted by much, if not most of the Church, and, unfortunately, her Protestant offspring. I believe that any such teaching/doctrine is not only a lie, but misrepresents GOD, denies the power of CHRIST, and stands in direct opposition to the very Spirit of GOD and the letter of the scriptures, all of which explains why there is so much human bondage attached to that kind of teaching/doctrine. The Roman Catholic Church is infamous for this kind of attempted doctrinal undoing of the finished work of Christ, and has deceived much, if not most of "Christianity" with her efforts. In this case, the result is a sort of "demonization" of that (divorce, and, in many ways, marriage itself) which has been ordained and given by GOD to HIS people. Imho, doing that should be, and perhaps is, "unforgivable". Because GOD's word records only one sin, blaspheming Holy Spirit ( MARK 3:29, LUKE 12:10, MATTHEW 12: 31-32 ), as "unforgivable" (unpardonable). I blame mistranslated, and therefore misinterpreted scripture, the resulting false teaching/doctrines....and fear. I don't think it's even a matter of which is "worse" because both adultery and any abuse of another person are sin. And it is our sin, not GOD's provision of divorce, which ends a marriage. But I do believe, as sis nikkol said, that in the case of ANY domestic abuse or violence, the first order of business is GET OUT!!!Then, and always in our lives as Christians, I believe we are to follow GOD's WORD on how to proceed on to the " peace" we have received through CHRIST, and to which GOD has called us by HIS SPIRIT ( 1 Cor 7:15). |
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Post by keita on Oct 13, 2007 9:13:23 GMT -5
And so, to the scriptures we go..... Sis nikkol, I agree with you that reconciliation would be one GODly option for a married couple in the particular situation of 1 Cor. 7:11. It is my understanding that although this couple are separated, this man and woman are still married to each other. What we have here is a married couple where a wife has, for whatever, or perhaps no reason, left her husband. Notice that she is under NO scriptural compulsion to return to him, but if she does not, she is clearly instructed simply not to marry anyone else, because she is still married to her husband. (Btw, her marrying someone else was indeed a possibility at the time, if some other man would have her, since bigamy laws did not exist as they do today and polygamy was often quite acceptable. Also notice that the man who has been left behind is not instructed to "remain unmarried", but only not to "put away" (throw out/kick to the curb) his wife should she return to him .......hmmmmmm.) So this wife returning to her husband is/was AN option, but not, as you said, THE, or only option. Because the sister does have some choices. She can return to her husband, choose to remain unmarried, ORRRRRR.... she could convince her husband to give her a "writ of divorcement" (aka/bka a "divorce certificate") as instructed in GOD's LAW ( Deuteronomy 24:1), and she would be free to marry. Remember that, for the most part, and according to THE LAW, women could/cannot divorce men so this woman "getting a divorce" was likely not one of her options. BUT JESUS also very lovingly works that particular problem out for believers, in her and other women's favor, through His teachings (and, as always fulfillment of the LAW) on divorce. Now, and as we see with the "woman at the well" ( Jn 4:1-42), this husband may or may not be her "first" husband. I think that particular word and perception would have to be read into 1 Cor. 7-11. But in any case, I would question applying 1 Cor. 7-11 to Paula and Randy White or any couple in their particular situation. That's because these are people who (we assume) did obtain a "writ of divorcement"/"certificate of divorce" and then married others. According to scripture, a certificate of divorce leaves the divorced woman completely free to marry again, but, once she does, she is NEVER, no matter what, to return to her former husband and he is NEVER to take her back. GOD's LAW ( Deuteronomy 24:3-4) is absolutely EMPHATIC about that and the reason why it was not to be done. Now before anyone defaults to the standard " we're not under THE LAW", let me be clear that I don't completely agree with that perspective of and approach to the new covenant at all. But even with that aside, I think we must also and always remember that "Jesus" was a (and the Ultimate) Jewish rabbi, who was sent to the Jews, teaching (primarily) Jews and that, as the Son of GOD, He did not destroy THE LAW, but HE fulfilled it. And, except when he admittedly offers his own thoughts on a matter, Paul, as an apostle, taught what "the Lord" taught, which is what, and only what, we are commanded to follow. So the question becomes how Jesus "fulfilled" Dt 24:3-4 and in what way(s), if any, GOD's LAW regarding divorce was or may have changed as a result. Because, at this point, I have seen no true scriptural evidence that it changed at all. However, since my view of divorce and remarriage is very strict, ie one can only remarry if their first spouse is dead and if they do remarry, it's adultery, then the marriage to the second spouse was adultery from the beginning and therefore not valid in the eyes of God.
Side Note: These are my personal views/ convictions based on the scriptures Sis nikkol, I, for one, am very familiar with and certainly respect your firm perspective on divorce and remarriage from our discussions on the various boards. I also believe that you are open and confident enough about your personal views and convictions to authentically engage in scriptural examination of and any challenges to them. With that, and based on the sound "Berean" criteria you shared on the JB thread for judging teachers and teachings, I believe that "iron will (once again ) sharpen iron." So to that end... "based on the scriptures", I would first question your statement that "one can only remarry if their first spouse is dead", primarily because of the word "only" used in it. That "only" is an issue for me because I haven't seen any true scriptural support for that kind of severe limitation. Second, I would seriously question the scriptural truth of your position that the marriage of a divorced Christian man or woman, while a former spouse is alive, is automatically or necessarily adultery. That conclusion is an issue for me because, again, I have seen no true scriptural support for it. Third, for me, the position you posted would raise a lot of spiritual concerns as well. That's because of its serious implications for believers who married under those circumstances, particularly regarding what they are to do now. So I would have to ask Nikkol (in pastoral counseling role),
Using only scriptural truth, how do/would you counsel an individual or a couple who is now in or contemplating the situation you described?Because they're definitely among us, and part of us, and they are way more than many, with more to come. So with all due respect to our "personal views and convictions", when it comes to our doctrine, teaching, and counseling others, we ALL have to do better than that. And, I believe GOD'S WORD and HIS scriptures make it both possible for, and required of, us to do so. |
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Post by Nikkol on Oct 17, 2007 14:28:45 GMT -5
Just getting to this one... (it's not part of the "top 20 posts....LOL)
I'll go backwards on this one. In reference to someone that was contemplating marrying someone that was divorced, we did let her know that according to the scriptures, we believe that it's adultery. She also knew that that was our view but chose to marry this person anyways. However, in this particular case, her husband actually died not too long afterwards (he was a lot older than she was when they married).
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Post by keita on Sept 24, 2008 11:00:31 GMT -5
PEACE AND BLESSINGS, sis nikkol! It's been a while, LOLOL! ;D ... In reference to someone that was contemplating marrying someone that was divorced, we did let her know that according to the scriptures, we believe that it's adultery. Well if I was that sister, we would have had quite the discussion. Starting with, "Which rightly translated scriptures would those be?" I'm sure I must somehow be misreading or misunderstanding you here. Because I initially and actually thought you might be implying that the former had something to do with the latter. |
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I ran cross some wish vision.... and wanta be. 
