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Post by nina2 on Aug 12, 2007 18:18:36 GMT -5
I read an article about divorce in Christian marriages which started with:
"The head of an organization dedicated to saving marriages says the Church needs to get involved in an effort to curb the tide of divorce. He believes divorce could be almost completely eliminated in the body of Christ if couples can only learn one important skill.
Mike McManus, president of Marriage Savers, says divorce filings tend to skyrocket in January, making that month, out of the entire year, the one with the highest number of divorce actions filed. In a nation where half of all new marriages end in divorce, McManus notes, there have been 38 million divorces since 1970, and one quarter of all adults from age 18 to 35 have grown up in divorced families.
McManus feels churches are partly responsible for the divorce trend in America. A Hart poll reports that houses of worship marry 86% of Americans; yet church culture researcher George Barna estimates that 39% of Protestants have divorced, a higher percentage than the 37% divorce rate of atheists and agnostics. Meanwhile, 35% of born-again Christians in the U.S. have divorced and 23% of born-again Christians have divorced twice. Among Catholics, the divorce rate is only 25%; but among Pentecostals, the rate is as high as 42%."
The article goes on... But, the title of the article is:
"Is Mentoring the Answer to Skyrocketing Divorce Rates?"
Is it???
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 13, 2007 15:27:00 GMT -5
For William and I, if we can't agree or anything else, the one thing that is the foundation of everything else is: "Divorce is NOT and option". Since that is at the foundation, we've learned, and are continuing to learn that we have no choice but to work out any difference. I do believe that if more people had the same thought pattern (ie that Divorce is not an option) that people would think twice about getting married and there would be less divorces. I do believe that there are some good conferences that you can attend (Family Life Marriage Conference is very good). I believe that mentoring will also help.... It may mean that people may need to spend more time in counselling before marriage. And/or being around more married couples.
And as I (and I know Giants would agree) believe that if you really seek God about your spouse and God tells you who they are, to say that you are going to leave who God has given you is something that I as a human (in flesh) wouldn't make because God's ways are higher than mine..... besides, who would know better about what I need than Him?
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Post by livinganewlife on Aug 13, 2007 15:55:57 GMT -5
Nikkol, I agree that divorce is not an option; however i believe when counseling young couples people should not tell them that divorce is not an option...because it is an option when abuse (emotional, physical, sexual or spiritual) is taking place in a marriage.
I heard a marriage counselor tell this young girl that at a bridal shower i attended and this particular counselor was getting beaten, husband cheating on her and everything imaginable is going on in her life but yet she is staying in her marriage because divorce is not an option........ trust me i know that this counselor is being abuse as there are police documents to back up the abuse....
IMO we need to be honest with ourselves and developed within ourselves to know whom to marry and when to marry. Marriage is great commitment and should not be entered into lightly....
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 14, 2007 7:29:40 GMT -5
For abuse, I would say to separate for peace sake. However, a Christian marriage by which both people are saved and they have both heard from God as to who their spouse is, you wouldn't expect to hear of these types of abuse. At the same time, I'd be praying for the spouse because God is able to heal and bring reconciliation. For some of these issues, I think that there is probably some deeper issue that may have not been addressed before marriage and/or being in an area where they were "opened" up to allow for enemy influences.....
I remember when I heard that there was a guy that goes on planes all over the world just to pray AGAINST Christian marriages...... Marriage is truly a ministry and the enemy is going to fight it (Christian marriages) more. This is why prayer together and being aware of what's going on with each other is so important. Discussing who is taking out the garbage and/or cooking is important.... but it is definitely nowhere near as important as the demonic attack that they need to be prepared for once they say "I do"... through the better as well as the worse. What's the better? The best thing you can think of plus more.... What's the worse? The worse thing you can think of plus more....
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Post by Rachel2 on Aug 14, 2007 16:09:51 GMT -5
[quote
"Is Mentoring the Answer to Skyrocketing Divorce Rates?"
Is it???
[/quote]
No, I don't believe that mentoring is the answer for the simple reason...how many mentors will be truthful enough to openly share what is going on in their marriages...the good as well as the bad.
Too many Christian leaders (pastors included) give the appearance that their marriages are perfect until one of them gets fed up and you find out all kinds of stuff was wrong in the relationship. We Christians wear a mask better than any group of people in the world.
I don't believe there is one answer to the divorce dilemma among Christians. I do believe that as Christians seeking God about your mate is imperative, however, even in that PEOPLE CHANGE. Just because God put you together does not mean that it will work forever. Contrary to erroneous teaching, getting a divorce does not always mean that God did not send you the mate that He chose for you. We still have a little thing called free will.
No, God doesn't make mistakes, but people make mistakes all of the time. Even if God put you together and your mate decides that they don't want you anymore what are you suppose to do?
I believe you can pray for your mate, but you can't stop him/her from divorcing you if that's what they really want to do. Why would you want to stop them?
And I have heard the saying about "maybe you'll have to pull your mate out of the fire". I assume that means you are suppose to stay and suffer until they come to their senses or something. I may have had that mentality when I was younger but the older I get the more I realize that life is too short for such nonsense.
I have learned that you can't make people do the right thing and you can't make someone love you... whether God put you together or not.
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 15, 2007 8:04:07 GMT -5
I think that mentoring is a part of what can help. Additionally, I would believe that if you are mentoring someone, one of the things about mentoring is sharing the good, bad and ugly. Just like when you mentor youth. You don't just tell them the "good" but rather you share with them the bad as well as well as your life experience.
You don't want leadership to kind of "wear their marriage on their sleeve" insofar as everything that they are going is "public business". However, no marriage has no issues and one thing that seeing the divorce rate and even maybe some past relationships that you (general) have had that didn't last should be an indication of that. Yes, Christians in general wear masks, but you don't want that to become an excuse.
So, you believe that God puts people together that won't last forever? That although God ordained marriage as a lifelong commitment that that doesn't ring true? Interesting......
You're suppose to pray and seek the face of God. Maybe fast because divorce is a trick of the enemy for their is power in unity. We know that 1 can chase 1000 and 2 can chase 10,000. Look at the power that every married couple already has? That's why the enemy is going to attack. I think for many of the relationships (if not all), the amount of prayer time and bible study has diminished.... if it even exists at all
That's what it means for better or for worse. The fact that you say that your mentality has changed since you're now older indicates what a lot of people are turning towards. I think much of your argument is based on what is known as "common sense". The common sense mentality is such that one would believe the fact that we need to live our life to the fullest and whatever it takes to do that is what we're going to do... even if it includes letting your spouse just do their own thing. This is the same mentality that would say that you hit me and I'm going to hit you back. What happened to the fact that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood? What happened to remember that what God has joined together let no man put asunder? This is what makes Christianity so radical.
Christianity goes against the grain. If we can't believe that God is able to keep two people together that he joined, it would seem just as easy to stop believing that I can be saved. Both require faith. The life of a Christian will include suffering. We will be tempted. Our flesh will always want to go against the spirit. The question that we must ask ourselves, however, is what would Jesus do? When we turn from him, does he leave us? When we do things that are against him and when we say things against him, does he turn from us? Does he no longer love us? No. For some people (even probably some who frequent this board), it took them YEARS to finally say yes. Many were forgiven for much (I know I was).... yet God still loved us and went what we would say is "above and beyond". If Christ did that for us, why wouldn't we do that for our spouse? Especially if we believe that this is the way that we can show the relationship between Christ and the church.
It's so important that we don't let experiences or the ways of life cause us to put seeds of doubt in our heads. We have to continue to access the faith that God gave us.... if we don't we'd be just as bad as the women with the issue of blood deciding not to touch the hem of Jesus' garment to be made whole....... we have to be able to go beyond our reach because it's only then that we can access faith...
Modified thanks to RACHEL2 pointing out a misunderstanding in what I wrote
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Post by Rachel2 on Aug 15, 2007 12:41:05 GMT -5
After all that discourse, the statement still is FREE WILLBottom line: We serve God by choice and we obey God by choice, be it in marriage or anything else. I don't care how much Holy Ghost you have or how many tongues you speak in. Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."This is your direct quote Nikkol: "The fact that we need to live our life to the fullest and whatever it takes to do that is what we're going to do... even if it includes letting your spouse just do their own thing. "First of all, you don't let grown folk do anything.....they are grown and they do what they want to do. Thank you for that quote it proves my point. God never forces us to do anything so how can you force a grown person to stay married to you if they choose not to? After that statement, I guess we know who runs things in your house. ooops 
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 15, 2007 14:47:15 GMT -5
Unfortunately (but understandably so), you misinterpreted what I said.... I said:
What I should've said (which I'll put in bold) is:
That's what it means for better or for worse. The fact that you say that your mentality has changed since you're now older indicates what a lot of people are turning towards. I think much of your argument is based on what is known as "common sense". The common sense mentality is such that one would believe The fact that we need to live our life to the fullest and whatever it takes to do that is what we're going to do... even if it includes letting your spouse just do their own thing. This is the same mentality that would say that you hit me and I'm going to hit you back. What happened to the fact that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood? What happened to remember that what God has joined together let no man put asunder? This is what makes Christianity so radical.
I apologize for the misunderstanding. When I read it, I saw how I would've made the same mistake. Thanks for picking that up so that others would be able to have a clearer understanding. We can always learn from each other. Additionally, I did add that to my previous message in red as well as put an addendum at the bottom indicating that I did modify the post. Thanks again. Looking forward to more dialogue.
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Post by Rachel2 on Aug 15, 2007 15:12:09 GMT -5
QUOTE: The fact that you say that your mentality has changed since you're now older indicates what a lot of people are turning towards. I think much of your argument is based on what is known as "common sense". The common sense mentality is such that one would believe The fact that we need to live our life to the fullest and whatever it takes to do that is what we're going to do... even if it includes letting your spouse just do their own thing. This is the same mentality that would say that you hit me and I'm going to hit you back. What happened to the fact that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood? What happened to remember that what God has joined together let no man put asunder? This is what makes Christianity so radical.
Nikkol,
Thank you for the apology. But obviously you are more focused on my as you put it "common sense" point of view which is not the real issue here.
The main focus of my argument as I tried to point out in my previous post is simply this: We have FREE WILL. God did not take our ability to choose away from us.
Everything that you have said about fighting for your marriage and believing in God is absolutely correct. But, you can't make your spouse stay if they insist on leaving.
I don't know why this is so hard to get across.
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 15, 2007 15:54:42 GMT -5
"Free Will" in and of itself is interesting topic which is really hard (at least for me) to totally understand. What exactly is free will and how does it work? To me, I would think that Jonah's will was to not talk to the Ninevites.... yet, God caused him to do what it was that he said. It would also seem to me that Peter wouldn't deny Jesus three times... yet because of what Jesus had said, nothing else could've happened except that Peter denied him.
So honestly, I don't know how "free will" can be used.... not to say that it can't... but that I'm not sure.
Side Note: It wasn't perse that I'm talking about you but rather that your statement(s) were such that are said a lot. Don't take what I say personally. It's more about the issue at hand rather than an individual. :-)
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Post by Rachel2 on Aug 15, 2007 16:47:02 GMT -5
Nikkol, This is my final question and response on the subject. I know when to stop beating a dead horse so to speak  Do you (and I mean Nikkol) serve and obey God because you choose to or do you serve and obey God because he forces you to serve and obey Him? The book of Deuteronomy clearly states if you chose to obey God you will be blessed, but if you chose to disobey God you will be cursed. Again, you have a choice which I like to call free will. Again I post: Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."The story of Jonah is a good example of this (the one about Peter, I'm not so sure) but anyway...my take on the Jonah situation is this: Yes, God did punish Jonah for being disobedient, but then disobedience is not the topic here. FREE WILL came in to play when God told Jonah to go to Ninevah and Jonah chose to tell God no in the first place and went in another direction, which lead to the punishment, which lead Jonah to change his mind. Another prime example of FREE WILL is Adam and Eve. God told Adam not to eat from the tree, but Eve did it and Adam Freely chose to eat as well (whether Eve persuaded him or not isn't the point). For those of you who may not take the time to read all of the posts: the original question is this: Is Mentoring the Answer to Skyrocketing Divorce Rates? specifically among Christians My stance is even though God may put two people together in marriage, there is no guarantee they will stay together because we have a choice which I call Free Will....which simply means that if your spouse chooses to divorce you, you cannot stop them, no matter what you do. And yes I know that you must fast and pray for them, but even in that they can still make the choice to leave you, if they choose not to obey God. |
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Post by nina2 on Aug 16, 2007 5:51:11 GMT -5
"Is Mentoring the Answer to Skyrocketing Divorce Rates?"
This is just my opinion:
Why should it be the answer, when it comes to Christian couples?
Didn't they have counseling, classes, seminars, whatever it might be called, before actually getting married? So, where does that fit on the other side of it?
You (general) can pass the pre-marriage tests with flying colors, A+ and golden certificate and it is still not a guarantee of a successful and lasting marriage.
I don't believe that people, whether Christian or not, get married thinking that divorce is always an option. They are sincere, and their commitment is real. It is also a fact that, regardless of how long you know somebody, how much you may love somebody, you don't really and fully know them until you start living together as a couple.
I don't think it's right to tell young couples, or any couple, "divorce is not an option".
Divorce is not an "option", the wording is wrong. That might bring the question "then what is divorce?".
I certainly don't have all the answers, and there are many different situations, and again, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors, including Christian ones.
However, we know that marriage was instituded by God. It is to be holy and sacred. Who instituded divorce?
The laws of divorce are part of the Law. And, the law even today is holy and perfect and is from God. It was fulfilled, not voided and done away with.
Divorce was enunciated in great details by God. He says how, and he says why.
I have to believe that a Holy and all knowing God would not make such a provision for his people for it to be a deadly and d**ning one.
The law of divorce is very precise, and very little known. Even the highest rabbinic authorities struggle with it, today more than ever. The state of Israel just started recognizing civil divorce and it causes a big uproar. Up until now, only a rabbinic court could finalize a divorce and declare it dissolved. However, the Law never denied the right for a couple to divorce, as it is written..
I know that we always quote "what God has put together, let no man put assunder".
Then, the question is, if God put it together, and no man puts it assunder, who does?
God is consistant with himself, with his word. Some situations today, in marriages, did not occur before. The circumstances leading to marriage also have changed from what they were in biblical times.
There are great love stories in the Bible, however, for the every day people, and for many to this day, marriage was arranged by parents for their children. It was done when they were very young.
Also, again, great biblical love stories aside, for every day people love had nothing to do with it. It was mostly a financial and business arrangement, set by contract, between the parents only.
When there was, later on, a divorce proceeding, it was between the husband and the parents of the wife. The wife was to keep silent during the entire procedure. And, what was discussed was not about feelings, behaviours, etc... It was about, recovering the financial loss incurred by the parents because of the divorce.
Today, what is marriage based on? Love, right?....
If the husband gives the written get - up until today - and the divorce is finalised, the woman is free. She has the right to remarry.
Another example of what is a contradiction in what we say or believe about divorce is in spouses who are separated or divorced and pray and believe for the "restoration of their marriage". And, I am not questioning their sincerity. Divorce is a very painful experience, and, sadly enough, there is always one who if left by the one who first makes the decision.
However, when it comes to the Law, once the divorce is final, the woman is free to go, remarry if she chooses to. But, there is one thing that she can never do: and that's go back to live with her ex husband as husband and wife, period. If it's done according to the Law, the Word of God, when it's over, it's over.
And, it is God who made it so....
So, where does that fit with the current teachings about after divorce and standing for the return of the spouse, actually getting back together at all cost?
I think that most of them are the source of more confusion than anything else.... And, often, even more painful situations down the line.
I don't advocate divorce. I don't believe that mentoring is the solution to curb the divorce rates either.
Marriage is holy. Divorce is not an option, but it did not come from the devil either.
It is a God's provision, made by an all knowing and loving God and Father, who knew in his divine wisdom what would happen, and made a way for those to whom it would happen to still have life, and a life, both in the natural and in the spiritual.
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Post by livinganewlife on Aug 16, 2007 6:32:09 GMT -5
The article goes on... But, the title of the article is:
"Is Mentoring the Answer to Skyrocketing Divorce Rates?"Is it??? I do not believe that mentoring is the answer as most marriages and mine included suffers from "cognitive delusion" and the definition of "cognitive delusion" is when your reality does not meet your expectations. In reality marriages are hard work and it is a lot of compromise that both parties have to submit too. Throughout all of my pre marital counseling no one ever asked if I felt my "soon to be spouse" was worth the compromises and sacrifices that one will have to make in order to make a marriage work.... We were given the textbook script in marriage counseling, but I swear if that question was asked to me and if i really would have thought about it I probably wouldn't have married so eagerly.... Nina I agree with you mentoring is not the answer because we go through pre marital counseling, praying, etc prior to getting married and as Rachel has said "free will" takes part in every aspect of our life including marriage..... If my husband has changed from the time we got married and it is five years later and he decide that he want a 20 year old girlfriend and starts disrespecting me I don't believe that God desires for me to stay in abuse and neither does God desire for me to be held hostage the rest of my young adult life because i divorced... that's just my two cents........ |
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Post by Rachel2 on Aug 16, 2007 7:40:45 GMT -5
If my husband has changed from the time we got married and it is five years later and he decide that he want a 20 year old girlfriend and starts disrespecting me I don't believe that God desires for me to stay in abuse and neither does God desire for me to be held hostage the rest of my young adult life because i divorced... that's just my two cents........ Thank you livinganewlife....This has been my argument from the beginning. People do change whether God put them together or not. We all make choices..... |
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Post by Nikkol on Aug 16, 2007 7:48:13 GMT -5
Interesting....... I guess part is the fact that we are around different people. So around the married couples that I'm around, we all understand that "Divorce is not an option" and therefore we all work to make sure that the marriage will work. Even when my brothers were about to get married I talked to them (as well as their fiance's) that divorce wasn't an option. Does it mean that it's always good? No. Marriage has it's ups and downs. Additionally, with different views on divorce/remarriage (and even dating from the other post) I see why what I am stating can be seen differently as well as incorrect by some.
I'm not sure if there was a free will discussion in the archives... however, I do have something to add there.....
BTW, are those that are posting married/single/divorced?
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