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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Jun 19, 2008 15:00:34 GMT -5
Wow GAP!
I cannot read all of that on a break at work! LOL. I will print that and use it for my devotions. I will also respond to this thread when I get a chance.
Thanks for posting the scriptures.
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Post by vindicated on Jun 19, 2008 15:31:26 GMT -5
When you sit and read through these scriptures it looks to me like people assign or have assigned a WHOLE LOT OF STUFF to the Will of God and it has nothing whatsoever to do with what the Bible says the Will of God is. So how we come up with permissive and beyond, is beyond me and definitely beyond what the Word says about HIS WILL.
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 19, 2008 15:41:32 GMT -5
I think permissive will is revealed in the bible, while it may not be "spelled" out in the bible.
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Post by vindicated on Jun 19, 2008 16:10:59 GMT -5
I did a keyword search (will of God) at biblegateway.com and these are the scriptures that come up. There's 23 but it blessed me to even see them. With these scriptures and the ones GAP posted I'm even more convinced that a lot of stuff we are referring to as 'a different will of God' is the furthest thing from it but rather something that is really a characteristic of His Grace, His faithfulness, His love for us.
Mark 3:35
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Mark 3:34-35 (in Context)
Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Acts 13:35-37 (in Context)
Romans 1:10
Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Romans 1:9-11 (in Context)
Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:26-28 (in Context)
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:1-3 (in Context)
Romans 15:32
That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.
Romans 15:31-33 (in Context)
1 Corinthians 1:1
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1 Corinthians 1:1-3 (in Context)
2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Corinthians 1:1-3 (in Context)
2 Corinthians 8:5
And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
2 Corinthians 8:4-6 (in Context)
Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Galatians 1:3-5 (in Context)
Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:1-3 (in Context)
Ephesians 6:6
Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Ephesians 6:5-7 (in Context)
Colossians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Colossians 1:1-3 (in Context)
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
Colossians 4:11-13 (in Context)
1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1 Thessalonians 4:2-4 (in Context)
1 Thessalonians 5:18
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:17-19 (in Context)
2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:1-3 (in Context)
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Hebrews 10:35-37 (in Context)
1 Peter 2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1 Peter 2:14-16 (in Context)
1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1 Peter 3:16-18 (in Context)
1 Peter 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1 Peter 4:1-3 (in Context)
1 Peter 4:19
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1 Peter 4:18-19 (in Context)
1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1 John 2:16-18 (in Context)
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Post by vindicated on Jun 19, 2008 16:17:59 GMT -5
So in reviewing these scriptures along with the ones GAP posted one thing stands out to me of what the will of God is. It is what He wants for me. It is what He desires for me. I'm reminded of another scripture...
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
another other translation says:
11 For I know the plans I have for you,' says the Lord, 'plans for well-being and not for trouble, to give you a future and a hope.
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Post by giantsdodie on Jun 19, 2008 18:36:42 GMT -5
I dont believe in the permissive will of God.
God has ONE will. Perfect. Not permissive. In His perfect will he created man with the ability to have free will. To choose whether to obey or disobey.. to choose whether to line up with His will or not...
Our problem is that we are not always aware of what His will actually is, therefore we make assumption about His will, which is what I believe became called the " permissive " will.
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 19, 2008 19:00:35 GMT -5
Does God always get his perfect will?
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 26, 2008 20:05:40 GMT -5
This is probably the best article I've ever read on this subject. Here's a relevant excerpt from another article: The problem is that the Bible seems to indicate in [certain] verses that God has a will for something which doesn't get done. Israel didn't come to Jesus, though He willed it. Not everyone is saved, though God wills it. Yet at the same time, the Bible says that nothing can thwart God's will. Check out Dan. 4:35: "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast Thou done?'"
Now, isn't that a strong statement? Doesn't that indicate--especially in the context of Daniel 4, the unfolding of world history--that the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing in the sense that they cannot disrupt God's plan? He does what He wants. So, if it says in Daniel that God does according to His will and no one wards off His hand, and then we read in 2 Peter 3 that God wills we all be saved and yet we're not all saved, then clearly we can ward off His hand.
Guess what we've got here, ladies and gentlemen. We've got an honest to goodness, bona fide contradiction. Daniel says nothing can violate God's will. Peter says, clearly, something can, because God wants all to be saved, yet all are not. Therefore, we do violate God's will. Now, how is it possible that God's will can be violated and can't be violated at the same time? It sounds like a contradiction.
There's only one way out. The law of non-contradiction states that "A cannot be non-A at the same time and in the same way." The only way these teachings are not contradictory is if God's "will" in one case does not mean the same thing as God's "will" in the other case. This is the only way out.
The words "God's will" can mean two different things. Or, to put it another way, you can have different "wills" of God, or two aspects of the will of God. The simplest way to describe them is God's moral will--what He morally desires, but doesn't always take place (like salvation for everyone)--and God's sovereign will--described in Daniel 4 and other places--that which He purposes to take place and which always happens.
Two wills of God. Moral will and sovereign will. Moral will entails all those things God wants us to do, yet we may disobey. God wants us to be saved, yet many are not. God wanted Israel to turn to Jesus, yet most did not. God wants all kinds of things of His people--He wills those things--but they don't come to pass. There's a sense of God's will that can be violated.
Yet, at the same time, there are other things which are clearly stated about God's will that He intends actually come to pass. We see some of those details in the book of Daniel, and this is why Daniel makes the statement that God's will, in this sense, cannot be violated. Daniel's statements can only be sound if we're talking about a different aspect of God's will. If we're not talking about a different will, then we have a contradiction.
If you reject the notion that there are two aspects of God's will-- sovereign and moral--and don't want to concede the obvious contradiction, you have one of two choices. Either all of God's will is moral, or all of God's will is sovereign.
If you choose the first option, that there is only one aspect of God's will--the moral aspect--which can be broken by our free choices, then it's hard to see how God can have ultimate and sovereign control over human history if our choice is the deciding factor. You might take refuge in the element of God's omniscience, as I mentioned above. I think that explains some things, but I think the full sense of God's sovereignty entails more than just incorrigible anticipation of our moves.
If, on the other hand, God's sovereign will is the only concept taught in Scripture, then there can be no immorality. Everything we do is something that He, as the primary and sufficient cause, irrevocably ordains. We don't choose to disobey His moral will; we're just doing what God has already caused us to do. This would make God the direct author of evil.
Either God is not sovereign, or God is the author of evil and there is no such thing as disobedience. These are unacceptable alternatives because the Scripture clearly teaches otherwise. Clearly, it seems to me, there are two different wills of God. There's a moral will and there's a sovereign will.
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Jun 27, 2008 6:50:57 GMT -5
Commentaries can be good but I have a problem with basing a doctrine, a belief, or an understanding etc.. on "reasonable deductions".
What searching the scriptures for the answer to the question how many wills does God have only reinforced for me that God infact only has one will. Some call it perfect, because he is perfect. Some call it sovereign, because he is sovereign. Some call it divine, because he is divine. No where in scripture do we find that what God permits is his permissive will - that is man's reasonable deduction. Much like phrases such as "spirit of the law" verses "letter of the law" and "revealed in the word" verses "spelled out in the word" and of course the "God will do a new thing" which explains every 'new wind of doctrine' out there today.
Jasmine asked a very important question. "Does God always get his perfect will?" Sometimes we are afraid of such questions, but I am glad for Jasmine's boldness to 'go there'. My answer is NO and it's based on scripture. [and no, I am not ducking the lightening that some think is surely about to strike-lol].
My proof is found right among the list of scriptures I posted. "It is God's will that none should perish but that all should come unto repentance." We already know that "hell hath enlarged itself" and that "wide is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be that find it". So right there we know that in that area, no, God does not and will not get his will.
Does that take away from all that he is as God? Absolutely not. He is still all mighty, all powerful, and all seeing and all knowing, but since he created us with 'free' will, he knew from the beginning of the beginning that although it is his will that none should perish but that all should come unto repentance, there would be some that would not come.
I'll stop here and give space for others to comment.
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Post by vindicated on Jun 27, 2008 10:13:04 GMT -5
"Commentaries can be good but I have a problem with basing a doctrine, a belief, or an understanding etc.. on "reasonable deductions". "
Thank you! This article is nothing more than a human trying to make sense of divinity or flesh trying to explain the Spirit.
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Post by vindicated on Jun 27, 2008 10:17:21 GMT -5
No matter what we do His perfect will will be done in the earth
but
because we have been given a free will, His perfect will won't necessarily be done in our individual lives because it is up to us to submit to His will.
I said this earlier but I'm posting again. The Holy Ghost spoke this to me when I posted a few days ago. It actually sums it up. It doesn't take two pages of an article to understand one statement. If we listen to the Holy Ghost He will teach us and save us a lot of wasted time trying to conjure up explanations of why things happen.
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Jun 27, 2008 11:24:51 GMT -5
No matter what we do His perfect will will be done in the earth but Can't really agree with this, as there are many non-individual happenings that God has allowed to take place in the earth that were not his will. because we have been given a free will, His perfect will won't necessarily be done in our individual lives because it is up to us to submit to His will. I absolutely wholeheartedly am with you on this one. This has been a very good discussion, not everyone agrees 100% but we've been able to share in love. I must remember this thread (bible study) more often in the future. |
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Post by vindicated on Jun 27, 2008 13:45:27 GMT -5
No matter what we do His perfect will will be done in the earth but That's because they were done out of the power of the human will and not God's will. You have to understand what is actually being said in this statement. Everything that the Bible says will come to pass WILL COME TO PASS in the earth just like He said. Will it all be good? No. But it will happen because every prophecy in the Bible must come to pass. This is what the statement means. No it is not God's desire for mankind to be destroyed by sin and war, but because Jesus said it would happen, IT WILL HAPPEN. This is what I'm saying. In the earth, the will of God will be done because ultimately everything He said will come to pass will surely come to pass. The gospel will be preached in every nation. Christ will return. Souls will be saved. Once we understand what the Will of God is, (as described in details in the before posted scriptures) we can clearly see that the Will of God WILL BE DONE IN THE EARTH. Did not Jesus Himself pray, "THY KINGDOME COME, THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN." How can any of us come behind God Himself and say it ain't so? |
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Post by Nikkol on Jun 27, 2008 15:20:58 GMT -5
Commentaries can be good but I have a problem with basing a doctrine, a belief, or an understanding etc.. on "reasonable deductions". What searching the scriptures for the answer to the question how many wills does God have only reinforced for me that God infact only has one will. Some call it perfect, because he is perfect. Some call it sovereign, because he is sovereign. Some call it divine, because he is divine. No where in scripture do we find that what God permits is his permissive will - that is man's reasonable deduction. Much like phrases such as "spirit of the law" verses "letter of the law" and "revealed in the word" verses "spelled out in the word" and of course the "God will do a new thing" which explains every 'new wind of doctrine' out there today. Jasmine asked a very important question. "Does God always get his perfect will?" Sometimes we are afraid of such questions, but I am glad for Jasmine's boldness to 'go there'. My answer is NO and it's based on scripture. [and no, I am not ducking the lightening that some think is surely about to strike-lol].
My proof is found right among the list of scriptures I posted. "It is God's will that none should perish but that all should come unto repentance." We already know that "hell hath enlarged itself" and that "wide is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be that find it". So right there we know that in that area, no, God does not and will not get his will.
Does that take away from all that he is as God? Absolutely not. He is still all mighty, all powerful, and all seeing and all knowing, but since he created us with 'free' will, he knew from the beginning of the beginning that although it is his will that none should perish but that all should come unto repentance, there would be some that would not come.
I'll stop here and give space for others to comment. Scripture used: 2 Peter 3
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. Not sure if the scripture in context is indicating God's perfect will not being done.... but wanted to at least give the total scripture based on the discussion... |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 27, 2008 22:05:59 GMT -5
Thank you! This article is nothing more than a human trying to make sense of divinity or flesh trying to explain the Spirit. Does this apply to everyone or just to those who have a different view than yourself and happened to write an article about it? |
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