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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 27, 2008 22:16:55 GMT -5
I said this earlier but I'm posting again. The Holy Ghost spoke this to me when I posted a few days ago. It actually sums it up. It doesn't take two pages of an article to understand one statement. If we listen to the Holy Ghost He will teach us and save us a lot of wasted time trying to conjure up explanations of why things happen. Please don't tell me you haven't wrestled with an issue like this and could have written your thoughts out on 50 pages. We call this a discussion board and then dismiss other points of view because of length? C'mon now.... At any rate, it needs to be understood that things do not happen in a vacuum and everything is interconnected. As scripture says, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. So while I might be striving to live a sin-free life, a person who is living a sin-filled life might cause me a lot of grief or even loss of life. Living a holy life and striving to be pleasing to God doesn't guarantee one a hassle-free life or even a long life. So yes, some people actually like to "waste time" as you call it contemplating such issues. At any rate, I will offer this: I do not believe that scripture teaches that man's will overrides God's IN ANY WAY. There is nothing that God really wants to do but He has somehow given man this ability to limit Him to getting what He really wants. Such a God is really no God at all. I believe that God's will is always done. However, there are different "levels" of God's will, so to speak. We must wrestle with the fact that the revealed will of God is that man not sin against God, but that in several instances in scripture, God ordained it that man sin to accomplish His purpose. He did not merely passively allow it, but actively ordained it. And in other instances, God overrode man's so-called free will, without getting man's permission to do so, and restained sin. Ultimately, God always gets His way. My "free will" does not stop the will of God from happening. Man's efforts cannot thwart God's will. We really need to get back to Bible and stop allowing presumed thoughts and teachings guide our thinking in this regard. Once I myself stopped doing that, I had a much, much, MUCH greater appreciation of God's sovereignty and His mercy. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 27, 2008 22:24:03 GMT -5
Commentaries can be good but I have a problem with basing a doctrine, a belief, or an understanding etc.. on "reasonable deductions". But you yourself go on to do the same thing within that post. We use deductive reasoning all the time in day-to-day activities but we don't call it such. We also do it in our approach to studying the Word because it is making use of our God-given faculties. Why is it that we've been taught to leave our brains outside when we come to church and then consider ourselves more spiritual for it? I never did get that, especially since we've been commanded to love the Lord our God with all of our minds. This partly explains some of my disillusionment with the Pentecostal church in particular, but that's another topic. |
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Post by vindicated on Jun 27, 2008 22:50:28 GMT -5
Thank you! This article is nothing more than a human trying to make sense of divinity or flesh trying to explain the Spirit. Does this apply to everyone or just to those who have a different view than yourself and happened to write an article about it? The article mr sensitive... now you cut that out....I don't expect you to understand or know where I've been...in church all my life listening to DOCTRINES made up of men's own personal ideas and opinions. I have no tolerance for it. It causes way too much damage in the minds and hearts of God's people. I was a victim of it for years. I can't stand it. I'd rather take a strong stance against 'church lies' than to do what a lot of people do, even on here, and just eat it up for the sake of discussion and expressing my opinions. I can see I rub you the wrong way huh? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 27, 2008 22:55:05 GMT -5
All I asked was a simple question, and you asked if I'M the one that got rubbed the wrong way, LOL.
So you're saying that everyone who disagrees with you is spouting "church lies" and is out to enslave and control people? Because that's what it sounds like.
This is the Bible study forum, so if you believe that someone's position is a "church lie," then prove it biblically. But please, refrain from painting people who disagree with you with a broad brush, because frankly, you don't know the motives of everyone who holds to a particular position and it's pretty disingenuous of you to imply such. I think you still have some healing to do, my sister.
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Post by vindicated on Jun 27, 2008 23:17:15 GMT -5
What did you do, come on here looking for a fight?<<  I DO rub you the wrong way and you've proven it by blasting me on your posts.  Oh you didn't think it shows... I couldn't care less what anybody's opinions are. And no one should care what my opinion is. As Christians our highest respect should be for the word of God. No doctrine, idea or opinion means more than what the Word says. Anything that doesn't line up with the rightly divided Word should be quickly and completely DISMISSED. I never claimed to know everything. I don't know a whole lot. But the Spirit of God is inside of us and one of the things He does warn us about teachings that don't line up with the word. Even when we can't fully explain why we don't agree with it, He lets us know something is wrong. Don't hate on me because I try to listen to Him. At least I'm not foolish enough to use my opinion to argue against the Word. And certainly not foolish enough to do it just for the sake of "conversation." At least I have experience. My experience is what put me in postion to hear God for myself and moved me from just quoting scriptures and what I think to really beginning to learn God's ways, and wanting to know His ways. I don't have time for this. If you feel like I say something out of line with the Word then use the Word, in context, to correct me. But please don't come at me trying to start no chick fights. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 27, 2008 23:31:02 GMT -5
Sister, the only thing I ask is that you present SCRIPTURE to back up your own views and use SCRIPTURE to try to refute someone else's view. That's why this is the Bible study forum. SCRIPTURE, and SCRIPTURE ALONE--not labels, accusations, or past experiences--will be the standard for this forum. This is something that all of us need to abide by. If not, then this isn't the forum for you, simple as that. And that's OK. That's why every subject here isn't in the Bible study forum.
This thread has been derailed enough. Let's keep things on topic here.
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 28, 2008 10:19:43 GMT -5
Since no one really took the time to refute the actual essence of the excerpt that I posted (which contained scriptural references), I'll take some scriptures that demonstrate that there is indeed two "wills" in God or two aspects to God's will. I think the events that lead up to the death of Jesus demonstrate this best. We have Judas betraying Jesus, false witness being borne against Jesus, the soldiers mocking Him, etc.--all clearly acts of sin that go against God's moral law. However, Luke writes in Acts 2:23: "This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men" (Amplified). Again, the saints pray in Acts 4:27-28: "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." Peter (in Acts 2) and the company of believers (in Acts 4) clearly state that the sinful actions that lead to Christ's death were purposed and predetermined by God beforehand to happen. God Himself arranged those things to happen. To say otherwise is to deal dishonestly with the text and to read into it what is not there. Lest we say "Well, the death of Christ was a unique event involving unique circumstances," let's look at a few others in scripture. Revelation 17 depicts the war against the Lamb by the kings of the earth: "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and giving over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (Revelation 17:16-17). Without going into all the details of this passage, the relevant matter is clear. The beast "comes out of the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). He is the personification of evil and rebellion against God. The ten horns are ten kings (v 12) and they "wage war against the Lamb" (v 14). Waging war against the Lamb is sin and sin is contrary to the will of God. Nevertheless the angel says (literally), " God gave into their [the ten kings'] hearts to do his will, and to perform one will, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (v 17). Therefore God willed (in one sense) to influence the hearts of the ten kings so that they would do what is against his will (in another sense). It should also be noted that God did this in fulfillment of prophetic words--"until the words of God shall be fulfilled." This is significant because this implies that (at least in John's view) God's prophecies are not mere predictions which God knows will happen, but rather are divine intentions which God makes sure will happen. We know this because verse 17 says that God is acting to see to it that the ten kings make league with the beast "until the words of God shall be fulfilled." Fulfilled prophecy, in John's mind, is not only prediction, but also promised performance. In other words these events aren't a coincidence that God merely foresaw, but a plan which God has purposed to bring about. Let's also look at 1 Kings 22:19-23: 19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." So we see here that God commissioned lies to come forth from the mouth of these prophets so that He could bring about Ahab's death. Yet we know that lying is against the moral law of God. There are other passages, but I think these are enough to get us started. I would hope that those who are inclined to disagree with my view here would attempt to use scripture to refute my statements instead of ad hominems. That's how an honest dialogue takes place, and that's how we all learn and grow. |
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Post by anointedteacher on Jun 28, 2008 13:33:18 GMT -5
Can there be One perfect Will, that is divided into two types as fixed and the other not, like prophecy, unconditional and conditional?
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Jun 30, 2008 6:23:26 GMT -5
Boy I''ve missed alot. Let me try to catch up in the few minutes I have this morning. That's because they were done out of the power of the human will and not God's will. You have to understand what is actually being said in this statement. Everything that the Bible says will come to pass WILL COME TO PASS in the earth just like He said. Will it all be good? No. But it will happen because every prophecy in the Bible must come to pass. This is what the statement means. No it is not God's desire for mankind to be destroyed by sin and war, but because Jesus said it would happen, IT WILL HAPPEN. This is what I'm saying. In the earth, the will of God will be done because ultimately everything He said will come to pass will surely come to pass. How can any of us come behind God Himself and say it ain't so? Point taken, Sis, point taken. Not sure if the scripture in context is indicating God's perfect will not being done.... but wanted to at least give the total scripture based on the discussion... Nikkol, thanks so much for posting this. I'm always fussing about taking scriptures out of context, and I go and ... well, anyway, thanks because it really helped. Commentaries can be good but I have a problem with basing a doctrine, a belief, or an understanding etc.. on "reasonable deductions". But you yourself go on to do the same thing within that post. We use deductive reasoning all the time in day-to-day activities but we don't call it such. We also do it in our approach to studying the Word because it is making use of our God-given faculties. Why is it that we've been taught to leave our brains outside when we come to church and then consider ourselves more spiritual for it? I never did get that, especially since we've been commanded to love the Lord our God with all of our minds. This partly explains some of my disillusionment with the Pentecostal church in particular, but that's another topic. Hmmm, my dear fellow cooljc refugee, smile, I don't see where I did that, but I guess maybe I did, or maybe it is possible to view it that way. Basically I took the scriptures that actually talk about God's will and after reading them, and not finding any where in scripture where that some things are refered to as his perfect will, other things are refered to as his permissive will, etc... all I ever found was 'the will of God', so based on that, as I understand the scriptures, there is one will of God. However, after reading the scriptures you posted, (and thanks cause they did help) I guess I see the point you guys are trying to make, that God's will can be many things? Like for example I have one personality, but it's many things. It's charming, serious, intelligent, strong, etc... But it's only one personality. So, God's will is many things. It's permissive, it's divine, it's sovereign, it's perfect, etc..? Would that be a more correct way of viewing this topic? I know it may sound the same, but in my mind, it's not. Again, thanks everyone for contributing. And let's remember to share love. A person is more apt to listen to someone's opposing position if it's softened with love than if it's dripping in sarcasm. And if you see that I'm going in that direction, call me on it, cause we should be able to do that after all the years we've been on this board, right? Can there be One perfect Will, that is divided into two types as fixed and the other not, like prophecy, unconditional and conditional? Interesting thought...........I'll stop now and give space for others to comment first........... |
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 30, 2008 13:07:36 GMT -5
This is probably the best article I've ever read on this subject. Here's a relevant excerpt from another article: The problem is that the Bible seems to indicate in [certain] verses that God has a will for something which doesn't get done. Israel didn't come to Jesus, though He willed it. Not everyone is saved, though God wills it. Yet at the same time, the Bible says that nothing can thwart God's will. Check out Dan. 4:35: "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast Thou done?'"
Now, isn't that a strong statement? Doesn't that indicate--especially in the context of Daniel 4, the unfolding of world history--that the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing in the sense that they cannot disrupt God's plan? He does what He wants. So, if it says in Daniel that God does according to His will and no one wards off His hand, and then we read in 2 Peter 3 that God wills we all be saved and yet we're not all saved, then clearly we can ward off His hand.
Guess what we've got here, ladies and gentlemen. We've got an honest to goodness, bona fide contradiction. Daniel says nothing can violate God's will. Peter says, clearly, something can, because God wants all to be saved, yet all are not. Therefore, we do violate God's will. Now, how is it possible that God's will can be violated and can't be violated at the same time? It sounds like a contradiction.
There's only one way out. The law of non-contradiction states that "A cannot be non-A at the same time and in the same way." The only way these teachings are not contradictory is if God's "will" in one case does not mean the same thing as God's "will" in the other case. This is the only way out.
The words "God's will" can mean two different things. Or, to put it another way, you can have different "wills" of God, or two aspects of the will of God. The simplest way to describe them is God's moral will--what He morally desires, but doesn't always take place (like salvation for everyone)--and God's sovereign will--described in Daniel 4 and other places--that which He purposes to take place and which always happens.
Two wills of God. Moral will and sovereign will. Moral will entails all those things God wants us to do, yet we may disobey. God wants us to be saved, yet many are not. God wanted Israel to turn to Jesus, yet most did not. God wants all kinds of things of His people--He wills those things--but they don't come to pass. There's a sense of God's will that can be violated.
Yet, at the same time, there are other things which are clearly stated about God's will that He intends actually come to pass. We see some of those details in the book of Daniel, and this is why Daniel makes the statement that God's will, in this sense, cannot be violated. Daniel's statements can only be sound if we're talking about a different aspect of God's will. If we're not talking about a different will, then we have a contradiction.
If you reject the notion that there are two aspects of God's will-- sovereign and moral--and don't want to concede the obvious contradiction, you have one of two choices. Either all of God's will is moral, or all of God's will is sovereign.
If you choose the first option, that there is only one aspect of God's will--the moral aspect--which can be broken by our free choices, then it's hard to see how God can have ultimate and sovereign control over human history if our choice is the deciding factor. You might take refuge in the element of God's omniscience, as I mentioned above. I think that explains some things, but I think the full sense of God's sovereignty entails more than just incorrigible anticipation of our moves.
If, on the other hand, God's sovereign will is the only concept taught in Scripture, then there can be no immorality. Everything we do is something that He, as the primary and sufficient cause, irrevocably ordains. We don't choose to disobey His moral will; we're just doing what God has already caused us to do. This would make God the direct author of evil.
Either God is not sovereign, or God is the author of evil and there is no such thing as disobedience. These are unacceptable alternatives because the Scripture clearly teaches otherwise. Clearly, it seems to me, there are two different wills of God. There's a moral will and there's a sovereign will. Ok it seems like the assessment for some is that God acts through a moral and sovereign will, yet they are still one will? I believe this is what I see some saying. However KB, you are saying that there are two distinct wills of God. Moral and Sovereign, and these wills are different from one another, using the case of the crucifixtion as the prime example. Question: Are the terms permissive and perfect, will interchangeable with the term Moral and Sovereign will of God? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 30, 2008 19:02:09 GMT -5
GAP, I hope I didn't come across as "catty," I really don't. You can see I went off on a bit of a tangent there that didn't fully apply....pray for me. I know the terminology here is king of tripping us up, which is why there are several ways to describe what we see going on in scripture as it regards the will of God. I'm not too fond of using "permissive" and "perfect" in regards to the will of God myself, but I can grasp the concept behind the terminology. Let me go ahead and throw another monkey wrench of a scripture into this equation: "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Romans 11:32) |
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Jul 1, 2008 6:24:17 GMT -5
Oh boy, I think the Presbyter is comin out in you now, KB cause you done gone and messed me up for sure with that verse.
I'll take a stab at it with this question:
If God, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing who will come to him and who won't, uses our sin and disobediance to show his mercy and grace (like he uses our weakness to prove his strength) does that mean he WILLS that disobediance and sin, or just that he uses it for his glory?
Have I tangled myself up more with this question?
And no, KB, I would not describe your tangent as "catty".
We're cool.
;D
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Post by nina2 on Jul 1, 2008 12:35:58 GMT -5
I believe that God has only one will.
For me, what stands out is what Jesus said in what we know as "The Lord's Prayer":
- Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth AS IT IS in heaven.
For me, to say that there is such a thing as God's "perfect" will could be - in absolute, turn around and mean that there could be an imperfect will of God. And how could that be possible??
I also believe that there is what God wills, and there is what God does not will. And that is still his will, because if he does not will it, then there is no way that it shall be.
Obviously, what he does not will does manifest, but then it is also utterly destroyed, according to his will....
To me, what this "prayer" says last is also a strong, powerful, humbling, reminder of who God is and what the ultimate purpose of God is.
When we say "For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory", then we have to know what is and what shall be.
For everything in between, and that's just my understanding, through it all, we ought to always know that God is good, no matter what.
That's the part that the world does not want to hear and understand, and also, often, the one that we wrestle with, even if for just a while.
When Jesus took over - so to speak - after John the Baptist, he was preaching the same message as John: Repent, for the kingdom is at hand.
So, and again that's me, for all the preaching and teaching about kindgom now, and how it is presented, yes, kindgom is, and kingdom will manifest, but not without all over repentance. And, it starts with us. For God to dwell with us, sin has to be eradicated. He does not will sin.
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 2, 2008 19:23:57 GMT -5
If God, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing who will come to him and who won't, uses our sin and disobediance to show his mercy and grace (like he uses our weakness to prove his strength) does that mean he WILLS that disobediance and sin, or just that he uses it for his glory? I don't think I could answer this any better than Paul in Romans 9: 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 2, 2008 19:25:10 GMT -5
So how do you reconcile this with the passages that I brought up above? |
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I DO rub you the wrong way and you've proven it by blasting me on your posts. 
Oh you didn't think it shows...