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Post by nina2 on Jul 2, 2008 22:41:07 GMT -5
Which ones of these:
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
do you think are those:
"the vessels of mercy" ?
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 3, 2008 16:27:24 GMT -5
I believe the text equates the vessels of honor with the vessels of mercy.
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Post by nina2 on Jul 3, 2008 21:29:54 GMT -5
OK... Lets' go back:
Paul in Romans 9:
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Would not a vessel of honor also be endowed with grace and mercy by "nature" re "beforehand"?
Would not God's glory be more manifest if the vessels of dishonor and wrath were redeemed and turned into vessels of mercy?
Could this scripture also be part of the answer:
1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Cr 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Cr 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Cr 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
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Post by nina2 on Jul 4, 2008 13:26:06 GMT -5
Leviticus 9:1-11:47
32. And if any of these dead [creatures] falls upon anything, it will become unclean, whether it is any wooden vessel, garment, hide or sack, any vessel with which work is done; it shall be immersed in water, but will remain unclean until evening, and it will become clean.
Chapter 11
33. But any earthenware vessel, into whose interior any of them falls, whatever is inside it shall become unclean, and you shall break [the vessel] itself.
Earthen Vessels
There is an interesting distinction made in between different types of utensils. If a source of impurity even comes within the inside space of a vessel which is made of earthenware, even if it doesn't touch the walls of the vessel, the vessel becomes impure.
However, if it did not enter the vessel, even if it touched the walls from outside, the vessel remains pure.
With all other utensils, the opposite is the case:
having a source of impurity placed within the space of a vessel does not make the vessel impure, whereas touching any part of the vessel does render it impure.
Why is this?
The value of a utensil made of wood or metal is contained not only within its function as a container. The material that it is made of has intrinsic value.
On the other hand, a vessel made of earthenware, whose makeup is nothing more than mere earth, is of value only when used as a container;
accordingly its status of ritual purity is determined by what happens inside the vessel. The outside of the vessel, by itself, has no intrinsic value.
There is a simple, yet very beautiful lesson from these complex legalities.
"God formed man out of the dust of the earth, and He blew into his nostril a living soul." We humans are earthenware vessels!
"Do not look at the vessel but rather at its contents."
Therefore we must remember that our worth lies not in our physical material exterior, but in the inner contents.
That which is relevant to the inner self and to the soul, is what determines a person, not the superficial exterior.
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Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
Yirmiyahu - Chapter 18
4. And the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he made it again another vessel, as it had pleased the potter to make.
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Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
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And even though it seems like I digressed,
I believe that the reason for this:
Yirmiyahu - Chapter 18
4. And the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he made it again another vessel, as it had pleased the potter to make.
is that:
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 8, 2008 21:42:27 GMT -5
Here is the crux of your argument: Would not God's glory be more manifest if the vessels of dishonor and wrath were redeemed and turned into vessels of mercy? God's glory--the revelation of His Person--is multifaceted and is revealed in a multiplicity of ways. Thus God's glory is more manifest when all of His attributes are revealed. Wrath and justice are just as much a part of God's nature as grace and mercy. Paul says that the reason the vessels of wrath exist is to "to show His wrath and to make His power known." That goes to His glory. |
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Post by nina2 on Jul 10, 2008 10:34:34 GMT -5
" That goes to His glory." I understand KB... However, and because of the nature of the subject, I have to believe that ultimately, maybe in a realm and level "of glory" yet not accessed by us, the attributes of love, goodness, mercy, grace, intervene according to God's divine wisdom. That we may be in awe of his power, and, knowing that, even more in awe of his love. (That's my "short version" of it.... Not saying it lightly, but there is so much more.....  |
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Post by stillfocused on Jul 10, 2008 14:27:29 GMT -5
GREAT POST !!
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Post by Jasmine on Jul 10, 2008 15:47:22 GMT -5
So how do you reconcile this with the passages that I brought up above? This may seem like a "ah duh" oberservation..but before I post let me just say. Its hard for me to believe that God will's sin. Allowing is one thing, but willing it is another. Now, the observation I have is: is not Judas/Jesus a perfect example, of God's will being carried out through the workings of sin? Joseph and his brothers? If Judas HAD NOT betrayed Jesus, then Jesus wouldn't have found his way to the cross. Judas sin, is the direct cause of Jesus being taken and imprisoned. But most importantly it was God's plan, His will for Jesus to die on the cross anyway. So would one consider that as "God will-ing" sin? Since it had to happen. He knew beforehand, because it was His plan. Isn't that what the basics of the will of God is.. His plan for our life? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 11, 2008 13:02:06 GMT -5
I understand KB... However, and because of the nature of the subject, I have to believe that ultimately, maybe in a realm and level "of glory" yet not accessed by us, the attributes of love, goodness, mercy, grace, intervene according to God's divine wisdom. That we may be in awe of his power, and, knowing that, even more in awe of his love. (That's my "short version" of it.... Not saying it lightly, but there is so much more..... I'm not sure if I follow. Can you shed some more light here? |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 11, 2008 13:04:17 GMT -5
This may seem like a "ah duh" oberservation..but before I post let me just say. Its hard for me to believe that God will's sin. Allowing is one thing, but willing it is another. Now, the observation I have is: is not Judas/Jesus a perfect example, of God's will being carried out through the workings of sin? Joseph and his brothers? If Judas HAD NOT betrayed Jesus, then Jesus wouldn't have found his way to the cross. Judas sin, is the direct cause of Jesus being taken and imprisoned. But most importantly it was God's plan, His will for Jesus to die on the cross anyway. So would one consider that as "God will-ing" sin? Since it had to happen. He knew beforehand, because it was His plan. Isn't that what the basics of the will of God is.. His plan for our life? This is why I say that the "will" of God has two sides to it. That's about the best I can put it. Reading the scriptures, it's clear that God ordained the evil events that came about that caused Christ's crucifixion. It's not the easiest thing to reconcile with the "thou shalt not's," I know. |
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Post by nina2 on Jul 12, 2008 10:01:14 GMT -5
Kohelet (Ecclesiastes)“
In addition to the confusion that often surrounds the English translation of Ecclesiastes 1:2, the appellation for the protagonist in Ecclesiastes also loses much in the translation.
In the enduring King James translation of the Bible, the speaker in Ecclesiastes is referred to as “the Preacher,” and in many other standard English translations of the Bible
(Amplified Bible, New International Version, New Living Translation, American Standard Version) one finds the speaker referred to as either “the Preacher” or “the
Teacher.”
However, in the original Hebrew and in many translations by Jewish groups, the narrator is referred to simply as Kohelet.
The word Kohelet is derived from the Hebrew root koof-hey-lamed meaning “to assemble,” and commentators suggest that this refers to either the act of assembling wisdom or to the act of meeting with an assembly in order to teach. Furthermore, in the Hebrew, Kohelet is generally used as a name, but in Ecclesiastes 12:8 it is also written as HaKohelet (the Kohelet) which is more suggestive of a title.
Hence, Kohelet is “the assembler” who has put together wisdom and disseminated it to the people.
The proper Hebrew name for this book of the Bible is Kohelet, and in fact, the Greek word “Ecclesiastes” which means “convoker” is just an attempt to translate the Hebrew title directly into Greek.”
(With Rashi's commentaries):
Kohelet - Chapter 1
9. What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
What has been is what will be, etc. In whatever he learns, in a matter that is an exchange for the sun, there is nothing new. He will see only that which already was, which was created in the six days of Creation. But one who meditates on the Torah constantly finds new insights therein, as it is stated (Prov. 5:19): “her breasts will satisfy you at all times.” Just as this breast, whenever the infant feels it, he finds a taste in it, so are the words of Torah (Er. 54b), and so we find in Tractate Hagigah, that Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus said things that the ear had never heard, concerning the account of the Celestial Chariot.
10. There is a thing of which [someone] will say, "See this, it is new."It has already been for ages which were before us.
There is a thing that comes to your hand under the sun about which the speaker will say, “See, this is a new thing!” But it is not new, for it has already been so for ages that have passed before us, but “there is no remembrance of former [generations].” Therefore, it seems to be new.
11. [But] there is no remembrance of former [generations], neither will the later ones that will be have any remembrance among those that will be afterwards.
neither will the later ones that will be after us have any remembrance in the generations that will be after them. And the Midrash Aggadah interprets this as referring to the obliteration of the remembrance of Amalek, for his remembrance will ultimately be obliterated, as it is said (Obadiah 1:18): “and the house of Esau will have no survivors.”
12. I am Koheleth; I was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
I am Koheleth; I was king over the whole world, and later, over Israel, and then, over Jerusalem alone, and finally, [only] over my staff, for it says: “I was king in Jerusalem,” but now, I am no longer king.
13. And I applied my heart to inquire and to search with wisdom all that was done under the heaven. It is a sore task that God has given to the sons of men with which to occupy themselves.
And I applied my heart to inquire in the Torah, which is wisdom, and to ponder over it concerning all the evil deeds mentioned above, which are committed under the sun, and I pondered that it is a sore task that the Holy One, blessed be He, set before the children of men. (Deut. 30:15): “life and good, and also death and evil.”
a sore task Heb. òÄðÀéÇï øÇò. They have evil behavior.
with which to occupy themselves Heb. ìÇòÂðåÉú áÌåÉ, to behave with it. òÄðÀéÇï may be interpreted as an expression of an abode (îÈòåÉï) and a dwelling, and it may also be interpreted as an expression of study (òÄéåÌï) and thought, and the same is true of áÌå ÉìÇòÂðåÉú.
has given has placed before them.
Kohelet - Chapter 3
11. He has made everything beautiful in its time; also the [wisdom of] the world He put into their hearts, save that man should not find the deed which God did, from beginning to end.
12. I knew that there is nothing better for them but to rejoice and to do good during his lifetime.
13. And also, every man who eats and drinks and enjoys what is good in all his toil, it is a gift of God.
14. I knew that everything that God made, that will be forever; we cannot add to it, nor can we subtract from it; and God made it so that they fear Him.
15. That which was is already [done], and that which is [destined] to be, already was, and God seeks the pursued.
16. And moreover, I saw under the sun, [in] the place of justice, there is wickedness, and [in] the place of righteousness, there is wickedness.
17. I said to myself, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every deed there."
18. I said to myself, [that this is] because of the children of men, so that God should clarify for them, so that they may see that they are [like] beasts to themselves.
Kohelet - Chapter 8
17. And I saw all the deed of God, for a person will not be able to fathom the deed that is done under the sun, because though a man toils to seek, he will not fathom [it], and even if the wise man claims to know [it], he will be unable to fathom [it].
And I saw all the deed of God that He gave over to mankind.for a person will not be able to fathom, etc. Mankind cannot fathom the way of the Holy One, blessed be He, what the reward is for all the deed that is done under the sun, for they see wicked men prospering and righteous men declining.
because though a man toils to seek because I saw many people toiling to seek and to fathom this phenomena, but they are unable [to understand it].
and even if the wise man claims that he understands it, he will not be able to, for [even] Moses our teacher could not fathom the matter, when he said, (Exod. 33:13): “please let me know Your ways.”
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 12, 2008 19:41:15 GMT -5
Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Colossians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1 8And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
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Post by nina2 on Jul 13, 2008 0:25:27 GMT -5
1- And so, the mystery of his will having been made known "unto us" (writes the apostle):
Ephesians 1
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
2- Such is the apostle's prayers for the saints of Ephesus:
Ephesians 1
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
3- As well as for the saints of Colossus:
Colossians 1
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1 8And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
[glow=red,2,300]And the original post asked:
I believe that there is only one will of God. I would love to have a biblically based discussion on this point. I've heard many things such as perfect will, divine will, permissive will, sovereign will, but isn't there only one will and then what he allows?[/glow]
- The prayer had been prayed:
"Your kingdom come, your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven"
...
"For yours is the kingdom, and the power and the glory."
- The mystery of his will has been made known.
- However, has the question been answered?
Can we fathom it?
Do we have to?
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Post by krazeeboi on Jul 13, 2008 22:11:14 GMT -5
We're having a discussion about it, as the OP asked.
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Post by nina2 on Jul 14, 2008 8:39:50 GMT -5
Since this is about God's will, along with that, should not God's providence also be brought in what is being discussed?
This is a Q&A I read, titled the Paradox Of Free Choice:
The Paradox of Free Choice: Six Questions
Question:
How is explained the paradox of free choice?
Answer:
"This issue becomes difficult to discuss because we are often confused with just what the question is.
As soon as we hear one question being answered, another one is nagging us.
So let us first distinguish and list those questions:
1) Determinism: Isn't everything predetermined by the mechanics of the universe?
2) Robotism: God knew exactly what I was going to do when He made me this way. I'm just a programmed machine. How can I be blamed for being what I am?
3) Prescience: Since God knows the future, what choice do we have in it?
4) Omnipotence: God wants something to happen and it happens. So how could I possibly choose to do something He doesn't like? Who's more powerful, after all?
5) Oneness: Since there is nothing else but His Oneness, what room is left for us to make any difference?
6) Primal Cause: If God is the Primal Cause, doesn't the buck stop there?
Each question has its particular answer."
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