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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 24, 2009 11:11:39 GMT -5
So what about Paul and his request that God remove his thorn? If you do some studying behind that, you'll discover that Paul's thorn in the flesh was enemies of the Gospel. Yet God essentially said that He wasn't going to remove the thorn, but give Paul grace in that situation. But how many of us would accuse Paul of working witchcraft in this situation?
The fact of the matter is that sometimes in prayer, God's answer is "no" or "not yet." Prayer is not just presenting a bunch of requests before God; it's communication with God, and many times that communication consists of us simply being honest about the way we feel about a certain situation. And even if we come to God with the wrong motives or feelings about something, if you have an open heart, God is able to change hearts and minds in prayer and often does. And I think we should also understand that there are different types of prayer: supplication, intercession, consecration, etc. There is a time and place in prayer to just let it all out without fear of being "theologically correct," if you understand what I'm saying.
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Nov 24, 2009 13:13:08 GMT -5
So what about Paul and his request that God remove his thorn? If you do some studying behind that, you'll discover that Paul's thorn in the flesh was enemies of the Gospel. KB, can you elaborate on how you arrive at this conclusion? The reason I ask is because no where in scripture is it noted that what Paul's thorn was.
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Post by Poetricia (G.A.P.) on Nov 24, 2009 13:17:08 GMT -5
Nope then we wont agree because I dont believe EVERYTHING that happens is GOD's will. AMEN!! I don't either, Giants. I keep it this simple. The Word of GOD says that is his desire that NONE perish but that ALL MEN come to repentance.. but all men dont... its that simple for me... PERFECT example using scriptures as proof. AMEN AGAIN!!!!
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Post by Nikkol on Nov 24, 2009 15:02:50 GMT -5
So what about Paul and his request that God remove his thorn? If you do some studying behind that, you'll discover that Paul's thorn in the flesh was enemies of the Gospel. Yet God essentially said that He wasn't going to remove the thorn, but give Paul grace in that situation. But how many of us would accuse Paul of working witchcraft in this situation? The fact of the matter is that sometimes in prayer, God's answer is "no" or "not yet." Prayer is not just presenting a bunch of requests before God; it's communication with God, and many times that communication consists of us simply being honest about the way we feel about a certain situation. And even if we come to God with the wrong motives or feelings about something, if you have an open heart, God is able to change hearts and minds in prayer and often does. And I think we should also understand that there are different types of prayer: supplication, intercession, consecration, etc. There is a time and place in prayer to just let it all out without fear of being "theologically correct," if you understand what I'm saying. My husband always says, God can take your honesty....
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 24, 2009 17:44:29 GMT -5
Agreed. God is never afraid of our honesty. However I am of the belief that even our " honesty " needs to be submitted to the light of God's truth.
Also
You are 100% right. It may not be a heaven or hell issue, however that doesnt dismiss the seriousness of the issue at hand. I have often found that when saints say this what they are really saying is...
" Its not all that serious "
and it very well could be just that serious if we look at the broader picture and again many times we dont see that broader picture.
We could be a persons blessing but what if we are out of the will.
We could be a persons deliverance but what if we are out of the will
We could be a persons divine connection but what if we are out of the will
We have to have the ability to see, understand and comprehend BEYOND.
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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 24, 2009 22:28:45 GMT -5
So what about Paul and his request that God remove his thorn? If you do some studying behind that, you'll discover that Paul's thorn in the flesh was enemies of the Gospel. KB, can you elaborate on how you arrive at this conclusion? The reason I ask is because no where in scripture is it noted that what Paul's thorn was. Right, that's why I said you've got to do some studying behind that. This article explains it pretty well.
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Post by keita on Nov 25, 2009 1:13:36 GMT -5
I am a believer that what happens is God's Will. Sis Nikkol, I'm not totally sure if we would be saying (exactly) the same thing, but I am convinced that GOD's Will is ALWAYS and ALL WAYS done. In any case, like you: So I'm gonna stay out of "that part" of the discussion....for the moment, anyway. Instead, I wanted to post this (imho, very insightful) article in response to the actual topic of this thread: Respect President Obamawww.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6398.4908.0.0Why the office of the president demands our respect By Mark Jenkins [/b] Last year, President Bush was on the receiving end of an airborne shoe, and rather than express outrage, other leaders mocked the incident. Dozens of games appeared online where people could throw shoes at a digital President Bush. Still, the shoe incident was mild compared to the verbal bombs hurled at him for the last eight years.
Now, President Obama’s visage is plastered across conservative websites made up to look like Heath Ledger’s Joker, a grotesque caricature of a clown bent on destruction. President Obama is now subject to the same type of harassment his predecessor suffered.
Regardless of politics, religion, social class, gender, race, the president represents the highest office in the country. When the leader of what claims to be the most powerful country in the world is insulted, do we add our voice to the discontent—or do we register our disagreements respectfully? This matter isn’t about Barack Obama as a man; it’s about his lawfully obtained office and the country he represents.
But his agenda!, some might respond. And yes, the cap-and-trade, auto bailout, universal health care, quasi-socialist agenda he promotes incenses many of us. His support of abortion, homosexuality and other parts of his stated intent for our country directly contradict the Bible. We can and should attack sin—and the Trumpet does—but that does not justify disrespecting the office President Obama holds.
In ancient Israel, was David against King Saul’s agenda to murder him? Of course, but David still knew it would be wrong to kill King Saul when the opportunity came, instead cutting off only a small piece of his robe (1 Samuel 24:3-4).
Even that turned out to be more than the future king could stomach (verse 5). King Saul was no longer in favor with God, prophesied to lose his office, and chasing David himself like a wild animal for slaughter. Still, David’s respect for King Saul’s God-ordained office came first: “The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord’s anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord” (verse 6).
Jesus Christ showed respect to every human ruler He came into contact with—not because of the men, but because of the offices they represented. He didn’t even rail against those who murdered Him!
Jude 8-10 warn about speaking evil of dignities, pointing out that the archangel Michael, while contending with Satan for Moses’s body, “durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.” That was talking about the most evil being ever to exist.
The Apostle Paul wrote: “For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resist what God has appointed …” (Romans 13:1; Revised Standard Version). We may have elections, but no man takes office without God allowing him to do so.
The spirit of rebellion against those in office comes from Satan. He expressed his own desire to overthrow God’s government. “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit” (Isaiah 14:12-15).
A person might say, though, God’s government is perfect. President Obama’s is not! Well, neither was Pontius Pilate’s; neither was King Saul’s. Neither was Ronald Reagan’s or Winston Churchill’s. No human leader has ever led a perfect government. God does not sanction abusive leadership, but He will judge those men—not us.
The real question here, then, is not about the men who hold these positions of power. It is about us, our respect for their offices—and our respect for the God who allows them to hold their offices!
The next time you read a news source slamming one of this world’s leaders, ask yourself what the intent is. The United States was built on freedom of speech, and every man should have a voice—especially as we see the American economy systematically dismantled and society morally collapsing. But there is a difference between simply exposing a wrong agenda and disrespecting a dignitary—something a true Christian should never do. Do the news sources you use deliberately strip President Obama’s title as a means of removing the dignity of his office? Do they mock him with cartoons and use the worst images of him they can find? Do the discussions you join go beyond attacking a wrong agenda—attacking sin—and descend into speaking evil of dignities?
Rather than join in with a show of disrespect, honor the highest office in the country—the president of the United States—by attacking sin, not the sinner, just as Jesus Christ would. •
Copyright © 2009 Philadelphia Church of God, All Rights Reserved. Now, I'm not at all suggesting that any/every Christian who "disagrees" with President Obama is necessarily or automatically in rebellion. But I would contend that MANY of us actually are in rebellion regarding this presidency and a whole lot more of us just might need to more truthfully examine ourselves in this matter. Imho, we need to take very seriously any such rebellion found in or among us. Because scripture actually does, in fact, equate rebellion with witchcraft. (See 1 Samuel 15:23) I actually believe that's exactly why the spirit of witchcraft was "called out" on this particular thread. Btw... In studying Psalm 109:8, (which I highly recommend for this topic), I was quite interested to learn, among many other things, that Peter actually quotes that very same (now anti-Obama bumper sticker) verse in Acts 1:20.............. regarding Judas Iscariot. WOW. I also find it "interesting" (to say the least) that according to the U.S. Secret Service, death threats against President Obama have increased 400% since his inauguration. A number that is totally, suspiciously, and dangerously inconsistent with his approval rating for the same period of time, and which goes far beyond anything the Secret Service has seen with any other president. Frankly, I think racism is not only far from the least of the matter. But, even more troubling, at least to me, is seeing so many, and wondering how many more "Christians " are actually contributing to that particular disparity. But GOD knows and HE will judge. May those who name the name of Christ not be found in that number. Instead... I Timothy 2:1-2 (NIV)I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. (Emphasis: keita) Romans 13: 1-6 (NIV)Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. (Emphasis: keita)
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 25, 2009 8:37:04 GMT -5
KB, can you elaborate on how you arrive at this conclusion? The reason I ask is because no where in scripture is it noted that what Paul's thorn was. Right, that's why I said you've got to do some studying behind that. This article explains it pretty well. I thought the very next words explained it fine.. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (NKJ) (7) And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. I always saw that as spiritual opposition ... now that opposition can and will work through demonic forces AND human agents as well..
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Post by Nikkol on Nov 25, 2009 9:34:34 GMT -5
Agreed. God is never afraid of our honesty. However I am of the belief that even our " honesty " needs to be submitted to the light of God's truth. Also You are 100% right. It may not be a heaven or hell issue, however that doesnt dismiss the seriousness of the issue at hand. I have often found that when saints say this what they are really saying is... " Its not all that serious " and it very well could be just that serious if we look at the broader picture and again many times we dont see that broader picture. We could be a persons blessing but what if we are out of the will. We could be a persons deliverance but what if we are out of the will We could be a persons divine connection but what if we are out of the will We have to have the ability to see, understand and comprehend BEYOND. This kinda goes into moreso my Calvinistic view (I think we may have a topic about that already...)....but what I will say is that us (general) not doing something will not stop someone from receiving their blessing, deliverance, or anything else....God already knew/knows what we were and were not going to do and therefore a "proverbial ram in the bush" was already there. Just like the fact that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.
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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 25, 2009 11:09:13 GMT -5
I thought the very next words explained it fine.. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (NKJ) (7) And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. I always saw that as spiritual opposition ... now that opposition can and will work through demonic forces AND human agents as well.. And it should be clear that when one studies Paul's ministry, that messenger acted through human forces. I just presented the article that more or less definitively shows that Paul's thorn represented enemies of the Gospel to show that humans were indeed involved. The point that I was trying to make is that Paul asked God to remove this thorn, these people, from his life, but God said no and instead gave him the grace to handle it. But we would be hard-pressed to say that Paul was operating in witchcraft concerning his request.
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Post by giantsdodie on Nov 25, 2009 15:13:42 GMT -5
Agreed. God is never afraid of our honesty. However I am of the belief that even our " honesty " needs to be submitted to the light of God's truth. Also You are 100% right. It may not be a heaven or hell issue, however that doesnt dismiss the seriousness of the issue at hand. I have often found that when saints say this what they are really saying is... " Its not all that serious " and it very well could be just that serious if we look at the broader picture and again many times we dont see that broader picture. We could be a persons blessing but what if we are out of the will. We could be a persons deliverance but what if we are out of the will We could be a persons divine connection but what if we are out of the will We have to have the ability to see, understand and comprehend BEYOND. This kinda goes into moreso my Calvinistic view (I think we may have a topic about that already...)....but what I will say is that us (general) not doing something will not stop someone from receiving their blessing, deliverance, or anything else....God already knew/knows what we were and were not going to do and therefore a "proverbial ram in the bush" was already there. Just like the fact that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Ah see thats where we differ... IMO Calvin was wrong on his view of God will... Knowing what one will do and wont due still does not remove the responsibility of free will for someone to do what GOD desires them to do. Calvin believes the will of GOD is accomplished no matter what. On that point He is correct.. However our UNDERSTANDING of the will of GOD is often limited AND the role we play in it is extremely important and can either benefit us or hinder us. This is the part where saints mess up all the time. You are correct in the assumption that if GOD wants to bless a person He can and Will. However even in his sovereignty GOD has chosen to work through free will moral agents oftentimes to accomplish HIS will. We very well might delay someones blessing. We might delay their deliverance. We also can miss out on the blessing that comes with being a persons blessing. And while that may not be a " heaven or hell " issue it is an issue. We miss that point many times entirely.
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Post by krazeeboi on Nov 25, 2009 18:00:16 GMT -5
IMO Calvin was wrong on his view of God will... Knowing what one will do and wont due still does not remove the responsibility of free will for someone to do what GOD desires them to do. Calvin believes the will of GOD is accomplished no matter what. On that point He is correct.. However our UNDERSTANDING of the will of GOD is often limited AND the role we play in it is extremely important and can either benefit us or hinder us. This is the part where saints mess up all the time. You are correct in the assumption that if GOD wants to bless a person He can and Will. However even in his sovereignty GOD has chosen to work through free will moral agents oftentimes to accomplish HIS will. We very well might delay someones blessing. We might delay their deliverance. We also can miss out on the blessing that comes with being a persons blessing. And while that may not be a " heaven or hell " issue it is an issue. We miss that point many times entirely. Actually, Calvin's view on the will of God is closer to your own. Historic Calvinism makes a distinction between God's will as reflected in His commands and His will as reflected in his eternal decrees. That distinction is an essential part of historic Reformed theology. For instance, we know that God's law says, "Thou shalt not lie," "Thou shalt not bear false witness," etc. That's what is often referred to as the "will of command," or some may say God's "revealed will." Yet we know that these laws were broken in the events leading up to the crucifixion of Christ, but God purposed it to be so (Acts 2:23). That's what is referred to as God's "will of decree" or His "secret will." God's will of command can be broken. We can ignore it and break it. But God's will of decree is always done, and He often uses man's disobedience of His commands to bring it about. Either way, no matter how you slice it, it is still irresponsible, callous, and unpatriotic to call for an untimely death for the president and it cannot be excused in any way, theologically or otherwise. I think we can both agree on that.
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Post by keita on Nov 25, 2009 18:41:56 GMT -5
Amen...
Amen...
AMEN!
Annnnnnd, WE'RE BACK! LOLOL! ;D
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Post by Nikkol on Nov 26, 2009 23:22:06 GMT -5
Calling for an untimely death...yes. If that was/is there prayer, that's not good.
Which we all agree with.
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Post by kitty on Nov 27, 2009 8:13:40 GMT -5
Hey Guys,
Good topic! I don't have much to add... I have just been reading along. But I will throw my 2 cents in the ring. First... I never really thought of the position of president as a position chosen by God since we as Americans actually vote on it an also because there is not ONE... NOT ONE president that we have had so far that stands for all that we as Christian are to be concerned with. We as a people vote are own concerns whether we claim to be lead by God or not. For example, if abortion is your issue you will vote republican. If the poor is your issue you will vote democratic. For me I know I am voting the lesser of 2 evils every time I make a choice. But it is funny now to see all the Christians out there who wanted to hold Bush up in the light of being a God chosen king... and quote all of these very same scriptures now show their true colors. Like it was stated before... Many may declare the name of the Lord... But He will end up saying," I knew you not..." I'm proud to say that although I really disliked Bush I never prayed against him a day in my life. Sure I called him an idiot an a regular basis. But I never prayed for him to be removed from office or that he would be harmed.
As far as Obama getting into and the death threats. I'm glad that they don't make that the focus of him or his presidency. Why give those nut jobs power by mentioning them. Why encourage "copy cats". Not to mention this... not of the other presidents were without death threats either... Regan actually got shot! JFK actually got killed! And I'm sure the death threats for Bush were up there too I let's face if people were desperate enought to try to take him out with a shoe! LOL And yes I do think that inspite of all the Hoopla and the goal of conservative media to paint him in a negative light that Obama really DOES have a high approval rating! He had to have those high number in order to win in the first place. And people are tired of the republican way... Low taxes for the rich, no regulation, deregulation are nothing new and giving a bail out to Wall street is was Bush started doing on his way out the door.
I think the worst fear of a lot of these Psalm 109:8 praying Christians is the knowledge that Obama is going to be here for a moment. He may actually succeed in in turning things around.
Kitty
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