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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 8, 2006 16:45:54 GMT -5
OK, I missed something. Did I read something about 7 x 7 = 66 or something? Hold up, let me go put my contacts in..... LOL; go put yo contacts in ;D |
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Post by ybrown on Jun 8, 2006 21:17:08 GMT -5
I love when we vacillate back and forth. On one had we have an erroneous perfect word of God and then on the other hand the translators messed it up. Now I agree you teach and preach JESUS but there is a time and a place for a hellfire and brimstone word as well. I want this exchange to be edifying. This is a serious, yet scary subject that some people may not be ready for. My objective is to come with as much scripture, information and facts as I can, just like, I hope, anyone else. This can be a wonderful exchange, or it can be a not so wonderful exchange, depending on how we conduct ourselves. Let’s let the fruit prevail so that we can learn from one another.  To clarify, I said that we have a complete bible, so as not to lead anyone into thinking that some books were left out, i.e. lost books. I said it plain so that it could in no way be misunderstood that our bible is complete. What I did say is that God gave it to us perfectly, hence the canon. During the rendering of both the Hebrew and the Jewish OT and NT translations, there occurred some deficiencies in some of the meaning of certain words. I do believe that God deliberately gave us the King James Version as one of the finest efforts at presenting His inspired Word, especially since it was created in the time of the Protestant Reformation. Even as good as the KJC is however, some words lost their original meaning. A good bible concordance, along with a KJC bible (or whichever version you prefer), a Hebrew dictionary/concordance, Greek dictionary/concordance and/or any other study materials will make God’s word come even more alive in anyone that wants to take their understanding of God and His Word even deeper. That’s why it is my goal to get back to the Bible that left the hands of the canonizers…or as close as I can possibly get. I’m taking this one step at a time because there are many moving parts to the eternal hell idea. We can look at one of the deficiencies in our English bible versions - the Hebrew word olam. The Hebrew meaning of the word olam means various amounts of times, an age, or a specified or unspecified duration. It can mean eternal or signify eternity, when the sense of the place or the nature of the subject require it, as in God, his attributes or His Kingdom. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for an olam. He himself said he was in there for ever, but we learn that he was there for three days. Three days in not forever. Hannah promised that her son would worship God forever. She clarified her meaning of for the rest of his life. During his lifetime is not forever. In Deuteronomy 23:3 scripture tells us than an Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever (olam). Here “forever” is “ten generations.” Ten generations is not forever. You can use your own Hebrew dictionary/concordance or you can go here for a start: www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.htmlThere are many examples of the concept olam and yet this is only the Hebrew and Old Testament use and treatment of it. The New Testament word is different but it is treated the same because the Greek word beautifully and perfectly denotes the same meaning as the Hebrew. It is all about context and scripture will interpret scripture. So when we read those scriptures on hell (the word and concept “hell” is a study in itself) the duration could be any amount of time, from three days, to a generation, to a lifetime, or for an eternity. An idea that I am having is that those who don’t know Christ as Savior are in a hell fire for an olam - for their lifetime. I can attest that it is hell without Christ on this earth. I’m not sure of this yet, so I’m waiting for God to provide further illumination, if that is His will. There are so many people that are scared to death of God, scared for their families, friends, and billions of others who are going to the Christian eternal hell. Some of us are giddy and insistent on sending people there. We are at the point that a lot of saints are not able to fulfill the first commandment of “Love your Lord, your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind,” because they are afraid to death of Him, literally, and it is not a reverential fear. A lot of it has to do with our teaching on Hell. This subject is too important to treat casually, and to find a judgmental pleasure in wanting people to burn for an eternity because we want them to, is profound. Especially in light of the fact that this Christian view did not emanate from the Word that God gave to us. This is a message board and sometimes a message may not come through completely. If I say something that you don’t understand, just ask me. I will certainly ask you. I know I’ve been all over the board with this post, but this is a very important subject and I know that the current teaching has become an impediment to both the Body and unbelievers who look to us to learn about Christ and the heart of our Beloved Father. We just need to make sure we’re teaching the right and God thing. |
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Post by ybrown on Jun 8, 2006 21:19:50 GMT -5
OK, I missed something. Did I read something about 7 x 7 = 66 or something? Hold up, let me go put my contacts in..... ;D |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 9, 2006 1:18:16 GMT -5
I don't think the confusion necessarily comes with the Hebrew for "forever," because in the instances mentioned, the context clearly demonstrates what the term means--a certain period of time. Speaking of the Hebrew, we really don't see the concept of eternal hell in the Hebrew scriptures--nor the concepts of a personal devil or demon possession. That is very interesting in and of itself, and in no way am I insinuating that there is no eternal hell, or no personal devil, or no such thing as demonic possession--I'm simply making an observation.
At any rate, I think we've had some struggles with the term "hell" biblically. I believe Nina mentioned "Gihinnom" (sp?), or the Valley of Hinnom which was used figuratively by Jesus. It was Jerusalem's dumping spot, so Jesus used what was familiar with his hearers to illustrate his point.
Concerning the rich man and Lazarus, while I believe in the concepts of eternal bliss and eternal torment, that is not the point of the story, as Ybrown has stated. Unfortunately, the Jehovah's Witnesses have used the truth of the interpretation of the passage to advance their unbiblical doctrine of annihilation.
At this point I think I'm ranting, but I'm not sure.
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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 9, 2006 8:42:28 GMT -5
YB and KB very good points, in my recent observation it has struck me that God's judgment in the old testament and new testament was different in reference to Hell.
Again, I am with KB on this and I am in no way implying that Hell does not exist......
However, I feel that with this misunderstanding of Heaven and Hell many people have come to God only out of fear of going to Hell and not really getting to KNOW or wanting to KNOW the true and living God through Jesus.
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Post by auneeqsol on Jun 9, 2006 8:51:05 GMT -5
LoL KB you crack me up sometimes.... ;D
But YBrown Im sort of feelin you in some things that you are saying about this. This is because I grew up straight holiness (not knockin it cuz the teachings were my foundation) but sometimes we just took things out of hand, its like sometimes we "would " just condemn ppl to hell just because they were not saved. And we would throw it around just like that, like it was a right that only "we " had because we were saved and on our way to heaven. And a lot of times I would see ppl get saved "out of fear" of going to hell, and after a while that sort of wears off (with some ppl) and they never learn to love God. I was like that myself for a long time. Everything I did wrong i thought God was going to kill me...lol I would be scared out of my wits!!!
In light of that, I believe it is deeper than what we have known it to be. Some ppl even have mentioned different levels of torment in hell. But we must still remember that's not the final destination of the wicked. The lake of fire is the final stop and that's everlasting torment. Has anyone ever read that book called "The revelation of Hell"?
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Post by ybrown on Jun 10, 2006 18:58:37 GMT -5
The reality is that most of what we believe about hell comes from Catholicism and ignorance of the Old Testament, not from the Bible. Hades, sheol, Gehenna, gehenna fire, and Tartaroo were all rendered as hell. I believe God is moving in this area because most of our modern translations no longer translate Hades and Sheol into hell, even though we still think it to mean hell. What I never noticed before until recently is that there are several scriptures and even more concepts present in the bible that say God’s love, mercy and patience is truly never ending to toward all, including unbelievers, even beyond the grave. - For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. - Lam 3:31-33
- Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. - 2 Samuel 14:14
- The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave (Sheol), and bringeth up. - 1 Samuel 2: 6
- See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand - Deuteronomy 32:39.
- I will ransom them from the power of the grave (Sheol/Hell); I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave (Sheol/Hell), I will be your destruction! - Hosea 13:11-14.
The areas where we are seriously derelict with the hell teaching is numerous, but one of the things we greatly miss is that while we see fire (whether literal or figurative) on God’s part as punishment, God, it seems, will use it purify. Punishment and purification are two different things, driven by two different motives. The wages of sin is death, not what we preach. |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 11, 2006 0:45:39 GMT -5
Hold up ybrown, I see you taking the Carlton Pearson route. Anything that teaches other than the unbeliever's eternal banishment from the presence of the Lord is accursed.
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Post by ybrown on Jun 11, 2006 2:54:00 GMT -5
Hold up ybrown, I see you taking the Carlton Pearson route. Anything that teaches other than the unbeliever's eternal banishment from the presence of the Lord is accursed. I see that Carlson Pearson preaches inclusion, but as far as what he believes beyond that, I don’t know and quite frankly, I don’t care. The thing for me now is that I’m not following the doctrines of men anymore, no matter how self-righteous they make me personally feel. I don’t care what you or anyone else labels or try to malign or reside me to because that’s no longer my battle. Thank God for deliverance! ;D KB, I’ve had my hind particles kicked for years now, and more recently I have gone through things that if not for the grace of God, I wouldn’t be here. After being in such a low valley that I didn’t think I would emerge from, I am not about to shrink and pull back now because you say that what God has revealed to me, is accursed. Maybe if I was searching for another doctrine on my own or devised it myself, but since I am operating in His power, with His courage and His revelation, I am more than okay with hearing your assessment on what you think my view is, even though your words were void of any scriptural reference. I’ve come too far and fought too long and hard, and yes I was afraid of revealing this because I just knew someone would say what you just said and paint me with some brush without a stitch of scriptural backing. But guess what? I don’t care and I'm not looking for a amen pat on the back. Honestly and spiritually speaking, I was drowning in the shallow end of the pool where the prosperity gospel, the “we choose salvation,” eternal d**nation and irrational doctrines reigned supreme. It was only when He took me to depths where I couldn’t even see the top, let alone breathe, that I truly met Him for the first time in my Christian life. I’m not giving that up, even to save myself from a few hurled labels. We can certainly discuss this subject from a scriptural and biblical standpoint because I know that God has equipped me with more answers than I even had questions for. He didn’t tell me these things because I was particularly smart. I was just willing to shut up long enough, let Him do the talking and go where He lead me. That’s why He took me to study the original Word, in the language that He inspired, before men got their grubby hands on it. Otherwise He knew I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. I thank Him for that. He’s a good Father and He wouldn’t think of letting me loose without the protection of His Shield. I, by no means purport to know everything, but I do know what He has given me, and I know these things to be true, whether or not the church or its leaders, which is waist deep in apostasy, is willing to openly admit. I say, let’s let Jesus Christ be the only man that we mention if we are to seriously discuss this subject, as I do strive for comparison to Him and not the other guy. And by the way, I do respect Brother Pearson for standing up and denouncing that which is unscriptural. That’s more than I can say for the cowardly folks behind the pulpit that preach these ungodly things on Sundays. I read that someone had a conversation with a leader of one of the largest Protestant denominations in the world and that this leader admitted that 95% of Protestant ministers of the Word believe the same as I and know it to be true, but because of church doctrine, will not preach it publicly. But oh how they talk amongst themselves! If you want to know the true heart of a man of God, talk to him away from the public pulpit! That’s when you’ll truly know what God has revealed to him and not what the church organization has told him to preach. Oftentimes those are two completely different messages. Now, getting back to your statement, you say what I believe is accursed? How so? |
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Post by auneeqsol on Jun 11, 2006 3:42:00 GMT -5
Whoa!!!......  |
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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 11, 2006 7:33:39 GMT -5
Hold up ybrown, I see you taking the Carlton Pearson route. Anything that teaches other than the unbeliever's eternal banishment from the presence of the Lord is accursed. I am not speaking for YB as she is well able to speak for herself; however in light of the scriptures that she referenced. YB is actually revealing the same things that have caught my attention. The Hell of the Old Testament and the Hell of the New testament are different. Well not so much so Hell (but eternal judgement).... |
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Post by And Such Were Some Of You on Jun 11, 2006 7:41:31 GMT -5
Whoa!!!...... ditto! |
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Post by livinganewlife on Jun 11, 2006 7:42:53 GMT -5
I read that someone had a conversation with a leader of one of the largest Protestant denominations in the world and that this leader admitted that 95% of Protestant ministers of the Word believe the same as I and know it to be true, but because of church doctrine, will not preach it publicly. But oh how they talk amongst themselves! If you want to know the true heart of a man of God, talk to him away from the public pulpit! That’s when you’ll truly know what God has revealed to him and not what the church organization has told him to preach. Oftentimes those are two completely different messages. Exactly YBrown, you know that most of these preachers study and research more than most people. And the same revelations that God has given to us in our little study is the same revelations that these preachers are receiving; but in order to keep their congregations and not stir up the pot$$ they decide to continually teach this watered down version of the gospel. I remember once I was in a discussion with a well known preacher (this was before I was married) and we were discussing this certain topic and I asked him why he doesn’t preach the truth.... This preacher simply said, I would lose all of my members if I really preached the Truth of God's Word..... People would rather stay in darkness than to be illuminated by the Word!!!! |
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Post by krazeeboi on Jun 11, 2006 19:10:35 GMT -5
OK, I see I'm going to have to buckle down here and get back to fundamentals, since a core doctrine of what the church has believed since its inception is being threatened. As is usual in scripture twisting, CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Let's take this verse by verse, shall we? What I never noticed before until recently is that there are several scriptures and even more concepts present in the bible that say God’s love, mercy and patience is truly never ending to toward all, including unbelievers, even beyond the grave. For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. - Lam 3:31-33 Understanding the purpose of the book of Lamentations is crucial in understanding this passage. Jeremiah is lamenting the fact that God's people have been taken captive. Verse 31 has nothing to do with hell. The people of God are in view here collectively. The entire passage shows exactly who is in view here: "The woman said, "Why then have you devised a thing like this against the people of God? When the king says this, does he not convict himself, for the king has not brought back his banished son? Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him." (vv. 13-14) It is the PEOPLE OF GOD in view here, not those without. Also, it is noteworthy that the Bible is only recording the words of a woman here. What the Bible records, it does not necessarily endorse, for even the lies of Satan are accurately recorded. I don't see what this has to do with the concept of an eternal hell. See above comments. Who is the "them" that the passage is referring to? A particular group is in view here, and the context (there's that word again) shows us who it is; check out the reference in verse 9 (and it's not the whole wide world). The wages of sin most certainly is death; death is separation. That's what hell ultimately is: eternal separation from the presence of God. In spite of all of your subjective comments and experiences, you yet err. Whatever has been "revealed" to you does not have the Spirit of God as its source. Your doctrine is yet "anathema" and accursed. |
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Post by Jasmine on Jun 11, 2006 21:08:26 GMT -5
KB great Post!
Your last statement reminded me of Galatians 1:8-9
I dont think how one can stress why it is sooo important to read the word, for yourself. And be not as children tossed to and fro with evry wind of doctrine.
Try it by the spirit to see whether it be of God.
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