Are we all heretics?

[ybrown]

I was looking for some articles on apostasy last night and I wound up spending four hours on this one site that I found. It wasn't just one of those "expose heretics" sites, it was more than it.

It actually exposed how preachers no longer preach the true gospel. It went into great detail about how one of the most popular preachers (a preacher that most people would never say anything negative about) doesn't preach the tue gospel. We all know the preacher and see him all the time.

The site goes into the basic theme of this particular preacher's sermons - and guess what - they're right. What this preacher (and a lot others) preaches is not the true gospel. I know he's not doing it on purpose and I can see that he's a man that loves the Lord, but how has this happened to most of today's preachers?

I've seen many sites like this before and sometimes I dismiss them because I think its complete bias against the "Faith Movement," but sometimes things are too obvious to ignore. My eyes were opened and I realized there's a fine line between heresey and true Biblical Scripture. I realized some of my own ideas about Christianity were heresy because some of the preachers I learned from were teaching it.

This site exposed the lies about certain Scriptures that are used in order to manipulate the masses. Are these preachers doing it to deceive or do they actually believe what they're saying is the true Word of God? I don't know, but I do know that God is merciful and He exposed me to this in four hours. It could have taken me 17 years like it did the author of the site.

We have got to be careful about what and who feeds us. Ultimately, if something that's being sold as Biblical cannot be supported by the Bible, its time to seriously consider the other teachings of who's feeding you. There's a lot of misunderstanding of Scripture and outright deception in the body of Christ and in the end, those that taught you heretical teachings aren't going to be standing by your side on Judgement Day.

Once we've identified heresy in our own walks, we've got repent and not continue in that practice.

[Beulah5]

Your post is very general what are the exact issues that you were caused to re examine?

[ybrown]

One of the things is the seed faith giving. Are certain Scriptures not being taught correctly and instead being used only to separate folks from their money?

I'm not talking about out- and out scams that most people can look at and deduct that something just isn't right. I'm talking about the use of this practice by teachers/prophets that we trust and that probably most of us have encountered and supported. Here is just one example that makes you at the very least, question how seed faith giving is being taught:

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How does seed faith giving work. It is loosely based (very loosely as we will see) on the parable of the sower found in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8. Using the illustration of sowing seed, people are instructed that if they will give money to the church, the ministry, the TV network, the man of God, etc, God will multiply it back to them 30, 60, or 100 times more than they gave. In fact now days about all you ever hear about is the 100 fold return. The 30 and 60 fold returns have pretty much been dropped altogether.

That’s a pretty good deal wouldn’t you say? Give God $1 and get back $100. Give God $100 and get back $10,000. Give God $10,000 and get back a cool million. And not only that, but you can also sow money and get back other things. Things like salvation for relatives, healing for incurable diseases, and deliverance from various demonic influences! That’s right, all you have to do is send your seed (meaning money) to the man of God!

Is this really what the parable of the sower is all about. What do you think? Let’s examine this important parable.

Luke 8:4-8 NASB
When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus explains the parable

Luke 8:11 NASB
Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.

Now right here anybody with even a minimal level of reading comprehension should be able to see that this parable has nothing to do with money. The seed is the word of God. Even a brand new baby Christian should be able to look at this and say “I don’t think these fellows are teaching this correctly”

Let’s continue with Jesus’ explanation

Luke 8:12-15 NASB
Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

This parable is about what happens when the word of God is sown or revealed in the heart of a person. It may be the most important parable Jesus taught. Why do I say that? Because Jesus said this:

Mark 4;13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Jesus is saying that if you don’t understand this parable you won’t understand any of the parables he taught. This is a foundational teaching!

By misapplying the parable of the sower these false teachers do great damage to Gods people. First, by falsely claiming that God works like some kind of cosmic slot machine. But the real damage is in the fact that believers are robbed of the true meaning of this teaching.

The parable of the sower is at work every time Gods word is revealed to you. In fact it is at work right now in many of you who are reading this.

I know that many of you will read this and say “I don’t believe that. I don’t believe that my favorite preacher would preach a false message” You’ll reject what I’m saying. You’ll actually be rejecting the words of Jesus

The devil has come already to steal this word from you.

Some of you will hear what I say and receive it gladly. “ Glory to God” you’ll say, “preach it brother…. Hallelujah ” But you won’t take the time to really meditate on this word. You won’t really apply it.

And then a testing will come. Testing because of the word sown in your heart. A test to see if you really believe, trust in, rely on, adhere to what you claim to believe. You’ll be challenged. God Himself will allow that challenge, that test.

Will you pass the test? Or will you revert back to your traditional thinking?

And of course some of you will hear and believe but you won’t give this word the proper place in your life. You’ll think about it for a while. You’ll decide that it’s right but then you’ll get on with your life. You’ll get busy with your job, your family, your daily responsibilities and it will recede further and further into the recesses of your heart until it has no real value to you.

And the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches will have choked the truth out of your heart.

But I know too that some of you will hear this word and receive it. You’ll meditate on it. You’ll give it the proper priority in your life. When challenged you’ll stand and agree with it rather than contradict!

And you will have proven yourself to be good soil. You’ll produce fruit, becoming more and more Christ like in your life. You’ll become a disciple indeed.

[Grace]

Well I have head it preached 30, 60, 100 fold but one thing my bishop always says it may not come back int he form of money. And he goes on to elaborate. And when i give I am not necessarily looking for it to come back. I have learned this we can't beat God giving.

But th eproblem with most people is they don't even do what the bible said. Study to show thy self approved a workmanship need not be ashamed. If people actually studied they would recognioze that soem things people preach is not the word. Everybody has a responsibility. And all willhave to answer.

[Giants Do Die ns]

While it is true that the parable itself has nothing to do directly with money it is very true that the parables often have dualistic applications and that since money is and can be a seed it is subject to God laws. While many use that scripture to manipulation people the principle of money as a seed is neither evil or wrong. Its the application of the priciple thats the problem.

We could by inference say the the parable of the talents has absolutely nothing to do with your natural talents and gifts from God because that scripture is specifically talking about money. Yet the PRINCIPLE does apply in other areas as well

Be very careful of " anti-charismatic " websites. I have found them famous themselves for misquoting preachers and scripture.

[krazeeboi]

Giants, I agree (I TOLD we you didn't disagree about everything ;D ).

While it is true that the parables found in the Gospel are not referring to money as seed, here is one passage that does make an analogy of money and seed:

2 Corinthians 9
6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written:
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever." 10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

Now although I do not like the application of the "30, 60, 100 fold" concept to an offering because of the contextual miscorrelation (and I believe that all preachers should know this; sadly, they don't), we know that if we give that it shall be given unto us, good measure, shaking down, and running over--in other words, it will be multiplied unto us. So I really see this as a minute problem in the contemporary church today. God knows there are bigger fish that need fryin'.

But I actually agree with the overall thesis of your post. A lot of TV preaching today is nothing more than self-help messages sprinkled with a couple of scriptures wrestled out of context to sound like true Gospel preaching.

[keita]

I believe that MUCH of the present day "seed faith" doctrine, teaching and practice is just plain WRONG.

But I also agree that to a large extent, at least for many, it's more the result of perpetuating errors which are born of a scriptural "foundation" that is fraught with contextual issues coupled with a serious lack of balance, rather than intentional heresy.

That's why I cannot fully agree with those whose solution is to throw the baby (and his parents) out with the dirty bathwater.

In general, I think Giants is offering a good and wise caution about a lot of what he calls "anti-charismatic" websites. At the same time, that does not mean that many of the issues, objections, and questions they raise are not legitimate and worthy of consideration. If for no other reason, I have found and find their challenges useful in becoming better able to answer them and actually sometimes even in coming to see a matter differently.

Like KB, I find a lot of agreement with ybrown's post and I definitely agree that

A lot of TV preaching today is nothing more than self-help messages sprinkled with a couple of scriptures wrestled out of context to sound like true Gospel preaching.

I would just add that this is a lot more pervasive, and for many of us, the frequency and occurrence of it in our actual congregations is far greater than TV!

[krazeeboi]

AMEN KEITA!

[ybrown]

Giants, I do know what you're saying about the anti-charismatic websites - there are plenty out there.

A question that I've had to ask myself is am I just accepting what's being taught by certain preachers because I like them and I've listened to them so often? I also had to ask myself why was I not going deeper into the Word to make sure that what I was being taught was correct?

After two years of being deep into charismatic preachers and just basically being fed by them only, I'm finding that the charismatic end of the pool isn't deep enough for me anymore. Its shallow waters and I know its time for me to go deeper.

Oh, I'll still listen to and watch the ones that feed me, but I've learned that there should be a balance because if you're not careful you can grab ahold of a teaching that may not be correct or half the story.

For example, I thought I had the concept of "faith" down pat. Usually the preachers I learned from taught referencing the same Scriptures over and over again, so I just knew I had it.

Since I was being fed by the same type of preacher, my perception of faith was constantly being reinforced - until one day I saw another teaching on it. Previously I would see this preacher on TV and immediately flip the channel thinking to myself that he looked so contrary to someone I would normally watch and I wouldn't watch him - until one day, God...

After this preacher’s teaching and message was over, I called his ministry for prayer and guess what? They prayed for me and sent me the extended study of faith, grace and tithing on CD - FREE - and they didn't ask me for anything, not even if I wanted to be a partner!

Prayerfully, I got the CD and after listening to it I realized that his teaching was basically contrary to what I had always been taught. That Word I received sat right in my spirit and I knew I could no longer accept what I had previously been taught about faith, grace and tithing.

Was my previous idea of faith heretical? Maybe. Was the teaching by previous preachers intentionally false? Sometimes. Do I know better now? Absolutely.

I need to divide and study the Word myself versus just accepting what I'm being taught. Error occurs when a concept is taken too far to the extreme or at the exclusion of other truths and that’s how heresy can easily creep into the Church and the lessons and messages we hear.

[giantsdodie]

I need to divide and study the Word myself versus just accepting what I'm being taught. Error occurs when a concept is taken too far to the extreme or at the exclusion of other truths and that’s how heresy can easily creep into the Church and the lessons and messages we hear.

Bingo. Thats what we are supposed to be doing anyway.

If you examine Every move of God there has always been extremes. However it is God and His word that brings the balance.

Some of what " faith " teachers teach is accurate. Some of what they teach is off. Is it herecy ?? I would have to examine what the person says specifically.

Some of what the " anti-charasmatics" teach is accurate. Some of it is way off.

We have to allow the Spirit of God and His word to be the balance and reveal the truth.

[keita]

Amen, Giants!

[anointedteacher]

ybrown said:

A question that I've had to ask myself is am I just accepting what's being taught by certain preachers because I like them and I've listened to them so often? I also had to ask myself why was I not going deeper into the Word to make sure that what I was being taught was correct?

Some of the teaching from those preachers may not be complete off or off at all. Seed have been used in the Bible as money and the Word. There is a law of sowing and reaping... It can be anything including money. In the world we called "What go around; come around". We know you reap more than what you sow. What we should look at the motive behind the teaching, including the web-site that you got your information. They are off with most of their teaching too. They attack well known preachers more than the preacher their teaching. There are many false and incorrect teachings out their. Why they focus on one form of teaching and well known preachers. You said yourself, you know the person love the Lord. You witness his fruit and the spirit he is walking in. You also know these individual they are talking about, are not turning anybody away from Christ, but many have been saved and healing through their ministry. Thier character, work and teachingare their fruit.

After two years of being deep into charismatic preachers and just basically being fed by them only, I'm finding that the charismatic end of the pool isn't deep enough for me anymore. Its shallow waters and I know its time for me to go deeper.

Oh, I'll still listen to and watch the ones that feed me, but I've learned that there should be a balance because if you're not careful you can grab ahold of a teaching that may not be correct or half the story.

We are not called to embrace every ministry. I don't consider myself charismatic, but Full Gospel/Pentecostal. Every church and ministry are not you and every TV ministry are not for you. You have to realize that they minister to the general public, not to those who are full grown. I spend very little time watching TV ministry. When I do, I eat the meat and spit out the fat and bones. I'm not quick to accept everything that come cross the TV or palpit.

.

For example, I thought I had the concept of "faith" down pat. Usually the preachers I learned from taught referencing the same Scriptures over and over again, so I just knew I had it.

Since I was being fed by the same type of preacher, my perception of faith was constantly being reinforced - until one day I saw another teaching on it. Previously I would see this preacher on TV and immediately flip the channel thinking to myself that he looked so contrary to someone I would normally watch and I wouldn't watch him - until one day, God...

After this preacher’s teaching and message was over, I called his ministry for prayer and guess what? They prayed for me and sent me the extended study of faith, grace and tithing on CD - FREE - and they didn't ask me for anything, not even if I wanted to be a partner!

Prayerfully, I got the CD and after listening to it I realized that his teaching was basically contrary to what I had always been taught. That Word I received sat right in my spirit and I knew I could no longer accept what I had previously been taught about faith, grace and tithing.

Do it know for sure their teaching correct? What did the Holy Spirit revealed to you through your own studying of the Word. Because both teaching may not be completely correct. The Holy Spirit will teach you the truth concerning area of his Word, in fath, grace and tithing. Many teaches tithing is for the OT only, that is false teaching, because the Word and the revealing the of truth through the Holy Spirit, tell me to pay tithes and give offerings. If I just listen to man concerning these teaching I'll be confused. Thank God for his Holy Spirit, our teacher that lead us to all truth.

Was my previous idea of faith heretical? Maybe. Was the teaching by previous preachers intentionally false? Sometimes. Do I know better now? Absolutely.

Do you know for sure it is false and the other is correct? I think you need to dismiss both teaching and go before God and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you through correct teaching

I need to divide and study the Word myself versus just accepting what I'm being taught. Error occurs when a concept is taken too far to the extreme or at the exclusion of other truths and that’s how heresy can easily creep into the Church and the lessons and messages we hear.

I agree...

Those Web-site are designed not the uncover false teaching, but to bring discord to the Body Of Christ. Really to hurt other ministries that is outside their Faith. They label these preachers as being false which they may not be false. These some of the anti-charismatic preacher's teaching are off too. They have taught in pass the speaking in tongue, healing etc is of the devil, it not for today. They don't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They don't believe Apostle and Prophet are for today. WOW, Full Gospel, Pentocastal ... as far as I know, have never open a web-site to tearing down other preacher's teaching or ministry or openingly try to destroy other ministries outside their Faith ministry. I've never seen it, oh except for prophetess E. The foundation and root is nothing but jealousy and discord. Because they don't bother the real false teachers and prophets.

God Bless

AT

[ybrown]

Some of the teaching from those preachers may not be complete off or off at all. Seed have been used in the Bible as money and the Word. There is a law of sowing and reaping... It can be anything including money. In the world we called "What go around; come around". We know you reap more than what you sow. What we should look at the motive behind the teaching, including the web-site that you got your information. They are off with most of their teaching too. They attack well known preachers more than the preacher their teaching. There are many false and incorrect teachings out their. Why they focus on one form of teaching and well known preachers. You said yourself, you know the person love the Lord. You witness his fruit and the spirit he is walking in. You also know these individual they are talking about, are not turning anybody away from Christ, but many have been saved and healing through their ministry. Thier character, work and teachingare their fruit.

Seed, sowing and reaping isn't the topic itself - my point is that on our walk with Christ, we are to dig deeper, and not merely accept everything that's taught. Sometimes preachers get things wrong and because of this, yes, there are false teachings - no preacher is immune to that fact.

In regards to the preacher (I assume you read the article from the link I gave you), yes, I believe he loves the Lord, but a few months ago I stopped watching him because something just wasn't right for me anymore - his messages seemed less like the Gospel and more like a Tony Robbins motivational talk. The Holy Spirit was revealing something to me and that revelation was further confirmed during a national appearance by that preacher and his seeming to basically deny the Gospel while millions watched him on that show.

What that website did was merely confirm and voice what was already revealed to me. But yes, I still believe that preacher loves the Lord, but I also believe he's somehow misguided in thinking that if he preaches a padded cross, more will come.

I can rightly divide when a preacher is personally being attacked versus what he preaches. Ultimately, if a preacher isn't preaching the Gospel correctly, its time to take pause, no matter how nice he or she is - there's too much at stake to give anyone a pass.

Do it know for sure their teaching correct? What did the Holy Spirit revealed to you through your own studying of the Word. Because both teaching may not be completely correct. The Holy Spirit will teach you the truth concerning area of his Word, in fath, grace and tithing. Many teaches tithing is for the OT only, that is false teaching, because the Word and the revealing the of truth through the Holy Spirit, tell me to pay tithes and give offerings. If I just listen to man concerning these teaching I'll be confused. Thank God for his Holy Spirit, our teacher that lead us to all truth.

Yes, thank god for the Holy Spirit - but we have to stay open to Him in order for Him to reveal anything to us - this was part of my point.

Was my previous idea of faith heretical? Maybe. Was the teaching by previous preachers intentionally false? Sometimes. Do I know better now? Absolutely.

Do you know for sure it is false and the other is correct? I think you need to dismiss both teaching and go before God and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you through correct teaching

My litmus test: If a teaching can't be supported Biblically - and it doesn't matter who's mouth its coming out of - then I reject it. Period. I'm not talking denominational practices - that's up to the inidivual, as along as it doesn't contradict what God's Word says.

It would be unwise to paint anyone that criticizes preachers with a broad brush and dismiss them only as folks that want to bring discord. Sometimes they speak truth, sometimes not. The onus is still on us as individuals to know and study the Word so that we'll know the difference.

I'll never be so accepting of a man (or woman) that I can't spit out something that they say, if it isn't correct.

[anointedteacher]

ybrown said:

I'll never be so accepting of a man (or woman) that I can't spit out something that they say, if it isn't correct.

I have learned over the years, that NOBODY is alway 100% correct. You can't accept anybody, not even yourself (please don't take this as a offend). God did not give man 100% of everything. Everyone of us, well known, unknown, have limited knowledge and will be off in our teaching at time. God has all knowledge. If it something I can't swallow, I spit it out and receive whatever God has for me to take in. I will not label a person a false teacher unless I know for sure. False Teacher are a position, and they are workers for Satan and their primary purpose and duties is to separate souls from Christ, and by getting souls away from church, to follow them.

Because some Christian TV program are designed for the babes, weak in Christ who may or may not have a church, and for the lost, We who are growing in Christ will grow pass the teaching of those programs. So, we just pray for the lost that coming into the Kingdom, healing for the sick. Those program are not for us. That why I don't alway watch those program. I embrace only certain speakers and teaching.

AT

[Nikkol]

I will just add that if we are doing what thus saith the Lord, there is never a reason esp. in ministering the gospel that we should say anything less than 100% correct. That period of time is too serious for anyone to go on their own. So although there are preachers that may not say things 100% correct, I believe that it is possible and that it should be occurring. If the apostles can preach the word w/o the "eat the meat spit out the bones phenomena", we should be doing the same thing.